afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Tzardok]

I've got a question about Vecna's stay in Ravenloft. I've been rereading the 3.5 conversion of Ravenloft and it is very vague about Vecna; it doesn't even mention him or his domain by name. The Ravenloft wiki claims that Vecna became a Darklord in 750. It also mentions a passage from the 3.5 book that allegedly refers to his escape and is in the 750-758 (today) part of the setting's history. That sounds... like a really short imprisonment for Vecna. Do we have any clear dates on when Vecna was misted and when he escaped?

[afroakuma]

I've got a question about Vecna's stay in Ravenloft. I've been rereading the 3.5 conversion of Ravenloft

Probably your first mistake right there

and it is very vague about Vecna; it doesn't even mention him or his domain by name.

It's required to be; they didn't get the license to D&D characters from other settings. You'll also note them skating around naming Lord Soth.

The Ravenloft wiki claims that Vecna became a Darklord in 750. It also mentions a passage from the 3.5 book that allegedly refers to his escape and is in the 750-758 (today) part of the setting's history. That sounds... like a really short imprisonment for Vecna. Do we have any clear dates on when Vecna was misted and when he escaped?

Vecna became a Darklord and was brought to the Ravenloft year 750, roughly 581 Common Year in Oeridian reckoning; he spent the real-time equivalent of about 10-11 years in Ravenloft, though given the properties of the Demiplane, it's entirely possible that it bent time purely to troll him. It's equally possible that it didn't even need to do that - Vecna's torment would be absolute purely by virtue of his imprisonment in the first place, his enormous power confined, his enormous ambitions blunted. Remember that for him, even a minute in Ravenloft would be excruciating - a potent mixture of boredom, frustration, and claustrophobia as his divine mind found itself suddenly horribly limited in its access and attentions. For comparison, imagine I take you away from the Internet and lock you in a white room with white lights wearing white clothing, with sound-deadening white padding on the walls that makes everything muted and close to silent, with water to drink and flavorless rice loaf to eat. Your entertainment is now a rock. You can see experiments like this on YouTube - sensory deprivation is incredibly deleterious. Vecna's enormous mind would have found it beyond stultifying, to say nothing of the base humiliation of being a prisoner on the same level as Kas.

[Tzardok]

Ah. Understood.

This leads me to another headscratcher: Vecna is the only known divine darklord, right? I'm pretty sure that gods can't enter the Demiplane of Dread and the dark powers propably couldn't snatch, I don't know, Cyric. It's just... how could the Mists even take a demigod? Bog-standard outsiders cause pressure and shifts in Ravenloft's planar fabric; gods, even a demigod, should have more weight than that.
Just... what's up with that? Would it maybe be better to take Vecna at he point of his imprisonment to be a hero-god?

[afroakuma]

Ah. Understood.

This leads me to another headscratcher: Vecna is the only known divine darklord, right? I'm pretty sure that gods can't enter the Demiplane of Dread and the dark powers propably couldn't snatch, I don't know, Cyric. It's just... how could the Mists even take a demigod?

Much like how Vecna escaped to Sigil, it was a loophole - Vecna had created a powerful avatar, a significant commitment of his divine powers explicitly intended to exist in mortal form, with the intent of using it as part of a ritual to launch himself to greater godhood. This hubris and negligence created something the Dark Powers could grab onto, and because Vecna had anchored his existence to this avatar, when they used it as the hook to pull him in, the rest of him went along for the ride.

[Tiktakkat]

Or . . .

Perhaps it was Vecna's plan all along.

If you look at his "career", it is a continuing sequence of dead ends that he gets out of with grandiose plans that are "foiled" by various forces - heroes or villains, at the end of which Vecna is always more powerful.

Vecna becomes a lich, a rather dead end in terms of power.
He "escapes" by being "killed" by Kas.

Vecna is disembodied spirit, floating around, periodically possessing people stupid enough to use both his Hand and Eye.
He "escapes" by plotting to take over all of Oerth, "conveniently" leaving clues so that adventurers can hook up with Iuz and "stop" his dastardly plot.

Vecna accumulates enough power to come to the attention of the Dark Powers that imprison him in Ravenloft.
He "escapes" by leaving more clues so Iuz will come after him, allowing him to absorb Iuz and "flee" to Sigil.

Vecna is "trapped" in Sigil, locked in combat with the Lady of Pain, a fight he cannot win.
He is "defeated" by adventurers he had left clues for, "evicting" him from Sigil "just in time", and leaving him a . . . well, whatever they classify him as in the current edition - Lesser Power typically, but it has varied so much it is hard to keep it straight. In any case, "well above lich".

Every time Vecna is "defeated", he manages to rise in power level.
"Funny" how that works out.
By the by, what were Vecna's portfolio's again?

Destructive and Evil Secrets, Magic, Hidden Knowledge, Intrigue

Oh, right.
Pretty much the precise combination to gain power while always looking like you have been defeated.
"Hmm . . ."

[Thealtruistorc]

What does having Destiny in a god’s portfolio entail? What aspects of existence does that put the god in charge of? How does it shape events? Are there any examples I could look into?

I know that Araushnee was the goddess of Elven Destiny, but I don't quite know how her fall affected the Destiny of Elvenkind.

[afroakuma]

Or . . .

Perhaps it was Vecna's plan all along.

It wasn't. We have his internal monologue from his defeat in Sigil. He's still livid about that and considers it a massive humiliation.

What does having Destiny in a god’s portfolio entail? What aspects of existence does that put the god in charge of? How does it shape events? Are there any examples I could look into?

Destiny is a pretty rare portfolio - it's about purpose, ambition, decision, the seeking and finding of personal attainment. The desire for and finding of direction in life - a need to do more. Destiny is distinct from fate, a more common portfolio (though still uncommon) which has to do with final and irrevocable outcomes, often of a negative bent but not always. "Fate" is inescapable, cosmic, and unchanged by mortal agency. "Destiny" is the product of mortal agency charting a course for the rest of their life. Gods of destiny may be patrons of great movers and shakers - heroes and villains both, potentially; they may see and hint at the futures that may be, opening doors and lighting the roads that a mortal can walk. They are often impassive guides who provide inspiration or choices and then sit back to see what will come of it.

I know that Araushnee was the goddess of Elven Destiny, but I don't quite know how her fall affected the Destiny of Elvenkind.

Araushnee's fall disconnected her from the elven race, to the detriment of all elves born without her original influence, for without her touch the elves lack meaningful direction. They are reactive, not active, and their struggle to feel purpose and seek direction in life rather than falling into something for reactive reasons not only stunts their progress as a society and as individuals (think of how old elves are when they often begin their adventuring careers, compared to human peers) but also limits their future potential and reduces their birth rate. Elves quite simply lack the feeling that they need to find a path forward in life; they believe it will come to them or it won't, and in the meantime they will while away the years. In a philosophical sense, elves lack a meaningful will to live life - not to say they have a death wish, but rather that they struggle to want to make things be a certain way, carve a path for themselves. Individual elves still have some sense of this and can be driven by a deep enough emotional need, but it's as though someone took a brick out of Maslow's pyramid and the race collectively shrugged about it.

To put it simply, elves as a race have no direction that isn't reactive or complacent. That's what they lost to Lolth.

[Thealtruistorc]

Destiny is a pretty rare portfolio - it's about purpose, ambition, decision, the seeking and finding of personal attainment. The desire for and finding of direction in life - a need to do more. Destiny is distinct from fate, a more common portfolio (though still uncommon) which has to do with final and irrevocable outcomes, often of a negative bent but not always. "Fate" is inescapable, cosmic, and unchanged by mortal agency. "Destiny" is the product of mortal agency charting a course for the rest of their life. Gods of destiny may be patrons of great movers and shakers - heroes and villains both, potentially; they may see and hint at the futures that may be, opening doors and lighting the roads that a mortal can walk. They are often impassive guides who provide inspiration or choices and then sit back to see what will come of it.

Interesting. Thank you for the answer. Could you elaborate more on what a God of Fate might do with their portfolio?

[Tiktakkat]

It wasn't. We have his internal monologue from his defeat in Sigil. He's still livid about that and considers it a massive humiliation.

Yes, the internal monologue of the power of secrets because like his plans, his motives and feelings are always so straightforward and direct.

That is rather the whole point of my alternative take - Vecna is all about secrets. Nothing he says or does should ever be taken at face value. He always has some deeper plan to come out ahead, particularly after being "defeated".

[enderlord99]

Yes, the internal monologue of the power of secrets because like his plans, his motives and feelings are always so straightforward and direct.

That is rather the whole point of my alternative take - Vecna is all about secrets. Nothing he says or does should ever be taken at face value. He always has some deeper plan to come out ahead, particularly after being "defeated".

He keeps secrets, but he doesn't keep them from himself.

That's the sort of thing Cyrik does.

[afroakuma]

Vecna

Yeah no. We're not doing this. Play this song somewhere else.

[redking]

I've got a question about Vecna's stay in Ravenloft. I've been rereading the 3.5 conversion of Ravenloft and it is very vague about Vecna; it doesn't even mention him or his domain by name. The Ravenloft wiki claims that Vecna became a Darklord in 750. It also mentions a passage from the 3.5 book that allegedly refers to his escape and is in the 750-758 (today) part of the setting's history. That sounds... like a really short imprisonment for Vecna. Do we have any clear dates on when Vecna was misted and when he escaped?

The 3.5 iteration of Ravenloft could not mention the IP of other settings under their license to publish. As for time, for all we know Vecna may have been trapped for hundreds of years of apparent time in Ravenloft, because time can work differently there. Don't sweat the details of Vecna's excursion into Ravenloft. Its not even clear to me that Vecna's true, divine form was trapped rather than an avatar.

[Thurbane]

Here's an obscure one: The Black Loper (currently being rated in the LA thread).

Basically, it's a short story, with a 3.0 monster stat block attached as an afterthought.

Any ideas on developing some kind of backstory or ecology for this hot mess?

Black lopers do not reproduce. They come from some other plane, but which plane and their method of entering the plane is unknown.

Is there a chance they could have originated from the Far Realm?

[Thurbane]

Oh, and another question.

Are the Vaati statted out in the OA expansion the same Vaati (Wind Dukes) associated with Greyhawk/The Rod of Seven Parts?

If no, were they statted out anywhere else in 3.0/3.5?

[afroakuma]

Here's an obscure one: The Black Loper (currently being rated in the LA thread).

Basically, it's a short story, with a 3.0 monster stat block attached as an afterthought.

Any ideas on developing some kind of backstory or ecology for this hot mess?

Is there a chance they could have originated from the Far Realm?

Interesting inquiry. Good chance to walk through the process:

This was obviously a pretty slapdash monster, the acid not even having a damage figure associated or being listed in special attacks. Still, we have some useful data to glean. It's an outsider, with trivial spell resistance, DR 5/magic, scent... and this unusual property: "cannot be flanked." The short story gives us little context for why this might be the case. It certainly doesn't possess all-around vision (it's noted as being "nearly blind"). As a tentacley squishy thingamabob, it might be tapping into elements of the Amorphous special quality, but it doesn't possess the critical hit defense this would normally afford. The closest suggestion it gives us is that lopers have no "front" or face, so this suggests that it cannot be flanked because it's difficult to meaningfully force it to split its perceptions or reduce its attention to one part of its body, but still has a kind of "core" or other vital section which can be threatened by critical hits.

Then we get to the transfer property. Squamous and tentacley and alien in behavior and abilities certainly does sound like the Far Realm, but there are elements of this that don't fit - most especially the linkage with the full moon. That's a mystically resonant element that the Far Realm wouldn't touch on in any way - it's just not germane to entities of the Far Realm to have any properties that would tie into that kind of thing. So that's disqualified.

If anything, the transfer property makes me think of a monster from Pandemonium, the murska - which molts its shell when it has devoured a victim, transforming into them, gradually "regrowing" underneath as it loses access to the intellect and personality of the creature it ate. It's not quite the same effect as the black loper's transfer, though... and of course, Pandemonium is all caverns. No moons. Plus, the black loper is neutral evil by nature. Pandemonium is on the wrong side of the Abyss for that.

...so why don't we look right on the other side? Carceri is endless spheres floating in the sky, a "moon" is not outside the realm of possibility. It's also a plane of imprisonment and suffering, which aligns rather nicely with the whole "it ate me and then I became it" effect in terms of being torturous and vile. Lastly, Carceri does play home to unusual and eerie creatures such as the odopi, and its hostile environments align well with the acid powers of the black loper. Its natural ability to fly would allow it to traverse the spheres of this plane with ease, and the notion of a predator that takes on the mind of its prey and literally believes itself to be its own victim plays well with the betrayal themes of Carceri - by eating one member of a travelling party, the loper effectively causes its victim to "betray" its allies by exploiting its knowledge of their habits and whereabouts.

Oh, and another question.

Are the Vaati statted out in the OA expansion the same Vaati (Wind Dukes) associated with Greyhawk/The Rod of Seven Parts?

Correct.

[Tzardok]

Bunch of questions regarding Domains and Darklords, if you feel up for it.

Any idea what the illithid god-brain did to become a darklord? Does this story I heard about a human psion posesseing the brain and betraying his people hold water?

What is the deal with the Nightmare Lands? What can you tell me about the Nightmare Court, where it comes from and how it came to be the Nightmare Lands' collective darklord? Is known when the Nightmare Lands formed?

Is it true that the Sea of Sorrows didn't have a darklord before the Great Conjunction? How is that possible and how could it have been formed?

How did Jack Karn, Baron Lyron Ebonsong and Althea become darklords of their respective domains (respectively Ferelle, Liffe and the island of Demise)? Is known when the Isle of Ravens came into the Mists?

Edit: Do you think this Drowning Deep domain is a worthy inclusion? Does it and Nebligtod combining into the Nocturnal Sea make sense?

[aj77]

Is there any Afrocanon on who or what the Dark Powers actually are?

[afroakuma]

Bunch of questions regarding Domains and Darklords, if you feel up for it.

Sure why not.

Any idea what the illithid god-brain did to become a darklord? Does this story I heard about a human psion posesseing the brain and betraying his people hold water?

We still have no concrete answer, but my best two conjectures:

• The god-brain was the elder brain who concocted and disseminated the lie about illithids becoming one with elder brains in death.
• The god-brain is not an illithid elder brain at all, but rather as you mentioned the product of a humanoid psion betraying his people to mind flayers in exchange for power. This one came from a fan-written netbook but is not a bad idea.

I favor the first one because it constitutes a hypocritical crime against mind flayers themselves, which is a pretty big lunge for them. The God-Brain desired to be above all rivals and to gather information and knowledge to itself more quickly, wanting all knowledge within itself. To attain these desires it created and distributed a falsehood, causing the loss of knowledge of how to create new elder brains (thus endangering the illithid species) and a mass psychic suicide as many illithids logically reasoned that with all the intelligence already possessed by the God-Brain, to merge with it would be to instantly acquire all of its knowledge, so why bother remaining an ignorant little drone? The God-Brain's own followers, effectively its instruments of communication and interaction with the outside world, extinguished themselves in service to the Great Lie. Alone in the darkness, it sank into the Mists and got exactly what it wanted - a realm where it alone is supreme and where it can know absolutely everything - because it is limited, bounded, all that is to be known already long since discovered. The God-Brain rules a realm of nothing, psychic storms lashing out with its frustrations at being confined and unable to meaningfully grow in knowledge, with nothing do to but command and be opposed by its own agents.

What is the deal with the Nightmare Lands?

They're an Island of Terror, formerly part of the Core, where dreamlike entities exist and can terrorize "wanderers," those who are awake within the Lands. Uniquely for part of the Demiplane of Dread, they have a greater connection to the Region of Dreams, much in the same way that parts of the demiplane have a stronger connection to the Plane of Shadow. The mechanics of dreamscapes are not natively compatible with the structure of the Demiplane of Dread, which results in the domain demonstrating substantial instability.

What can you tell me about the Nightmare Court, where it comes from and how it came to be the Nightmare Lands' collective darklord?

We know very little about the nature of the Court. One proposition, which I believe to be essentially true, is that all of the members of the Court are just fragments of a single darklord, the Nightmare Man. Each of them may have originally been a unique entity, or they may all have been embodied in one original source entity who splintered as part of its torment.

The Court comprises six known members, plus a seventh not known to Dr. Illhousen but directly connected to them.

• The Nightmare Man, a faceless spectre who oversees the Nightmare Court and the Nightmare Lands but does not directly modify dreamscapes;
• The Ghostly Dancer, a mute ballerina associated with grief;
• "Morpheus," a red-skinned man associated with confusion and instability;
• "Hypnos," a suit-wearing gentleman in a glass coffin associated with frustration and impotence;
• Mullonga, a witch associated with fear;
• The Rainbow Serpent, a winged snake associated with betrayal;
• The Redheaded Child, who is unknown to Dr. Illhousen but has manifested on Gothic Earth and is associated with loss of innocence.

Each possess a vast array of powers within the Nightmare Lands, are served by malefic dream entities, and are anchored to a mystical "Web of Dreams" that lets them feel dreamers and feed on their negative emotions, with each connected via a specific mystical relic that if destroyed would sever their link to the web.

Spoiler: My guess

Show

My guess is that the Nightmare Man was once a would-be artist who struggled to capture emotion in his works because he had never experienced strong and passionate feelings, ever since an incident as a child left him numb to the world and desperate to recapture the spark he lost. He found himself incapable of experiencing them through contact with others and developed a subdued but malicious envy for those who could experience so very easily what he struggled to feel, let alone to depict. To attain his desires, he made a deal with a powerful witch, whose price was that he would "experience fear like no other before," which struck him as a price he would be comfortable paying. She gave him the means to absorb the souls of others, and he betrayed her by testing it on her first. After taking the souls of a dancer who knew only grief, a fastidious and apparently successful man immersed in frustration, and a chaotic man who despised order and structure but could only find confusion when it was stripped away, the would-be darklord found himself alone on a misty road with a red-haired child, the picture of innocence and bright potential. This would be his freedom, he decided, and he stole the child's soul with the power the witch had granted him... only to discover that the Mists had delivered him to the moment that started his own torment. The Nightmare Man's hollowness and lack of emotion was the result of him stealing from himself as a child, and all he could capture from the moment was the feel of lost innocence. Unable to recognize his own self as either child or man and knowing only that he had sown the seeds of his own destruction, he fled into the Mists and emerged into a realm made just for him, a realm in which each of his stolen souls - including the witch's familiar, who represented his betrayal of both himself and her - manifested as co-regents, each with their own hungers. The Nightmare Man has been reduced to nothing more than a malevolent will that animates the hundreds of spiders who weave his cloak and let him imagine himself to be something other than a hollow void.

And he experiences fear like no other before - only as an observer, incapable of harnessing it himself except to give to others, never able to capture it except as a mirror of another's emotions, and unable to channel it into his art because his paint turns to blood. He is the master puppeteer behind the architects of a thousand thousand nightmares and none of them will ever belong to him.

Is known when the Nightmare Lands formed?

No.

Is it true that the Sea of Sorrows didn't have a darklord before the Great Conjunction? How is that possible and how could it have been formed?

The Sea was not necessarily a domain as a whole before the darklord appeared - it would have existed as the sea of many other domains, and any experience of sailing through it to reach another would have been due to the Mists. The domain he plies, after all, does not incorporate coastal waters.

How did Jack Karn, Baron Lyron Ebonsong and Althea become darklords of their respective domains (respectively Ferelle, Liffe and the island of Demise)?

Just gonna ask me to make up more stuff for their underdeveloped slacker corners, are you? You know perfectly well that none of these were ever substantially detailed in canon.

Is known when the Isle of Ravens came into the Mists?

No.

Edit: Do you think this Drowning Deep domain is a worthy inclusion.

Nope.

[Tzardok]

I favor the first one because it constitutes a hypocritical crime against mind flayers themselves, which is a pretty big lunge for them. The God-Brain desired to be above all rivals and to gather information and knowledge to itself more quickly, wanting all knowledge within itself. To attain these desires it created and distributed a falsehood, causing the loss of knowledge of how to create new elder brains (thus endangering the illithid species) and a mass psychic suicide as many illithids logically reasoned that with all the intelligence already possessed by the God-Brain, to merge with it would be to instantly acquire all of its knowledge, so why bother remaining an ignorant little drone? The God-Brain's own followers, effectively its instruments of communication and interaction with the outside world, extinguished themselves in service to the Great Lie. Alone in the darkness, it sank into the Mists and got exactly what it wanted - a realm where it alone is supreme and where it can know absolutely everything - because it is limited, bounded, all that is to be known already long since discovered. The God-Brain rules a realm of nothing, psychic storms lashing out with its frustrations at being confined and unable to meaningfully grow in knowledge, with nothing do to but command and be opposed by its own agents.

This. This is awesome. I'm so stealing this.

We know very little about the nature of the Court. One proposition, which I believe to be essentially true, is that all of the members of the Court are just fragments of a single darklord, the Nightmare Man. Each of them may have originally been a unique entity, or they may all have been embodied in one original source entity who splintered as part of its torment.

The Court comprises six known members, plus a seventh not known to Dr. Illhousen but directly connected to them.

• The Nightmare Man, a faceless spectre who oversees the Nightmare Court and the Nightmare Lands but does not directly modify dreamscapes;
• The Ghostly Dancer, a mute ballerina associated with grief;
• "Morpheus," a red-skinned man associated with confusion and instability;
• "Hypnos," a suit-wearing gentleman in a glass coffin associated with frustration and impotence;
• Mullonga, a witch associated with fear;
• The Rainbow Serpent, a winged snake associated with betrayal;
• The Redheaded Child, who is unknown to Dr. Illhousen but has manifested on Gothic Earth and is associated with loss of innocence.

Each possess a vast array of powers within the Nightmare Lands, are served by malefic dream entities, and are anchored to a mystical "Web of Dreams" that lets them feel dreamers and feed on their negative emotions, with each connected via a specific mystical relic that if destroyed would sever their link to the web.

Spoiler: My guess

Show

My guess is that the Nightmare Man was once a would-be artist who struggled to capture emotion in his works because he had never experienced strong and passionate feelings, ever since an incident as a child left him numb to the world and desperate to recapture the spark he lost. He found himself incapable of experiencing them through contact with others and developed a subdued but malicious envy for those who could experience so very easily what he struggled to feel, let alone to depict. To attain his desires, he made a deal with a powerful witch, whose price was that he would "experience fear like no other before," which struck him as a price he would be comfortable paying. She gave him the means to absorb the souls of others, and he betrayed her by testing it on her first. After taking the souls of a dancer who knew only grief, a fastidious and apparently successful man immersed in frustration, and a chaotic man who despised order and structure but could only find confusion when it was stripped away, the would-be darklord found himself alone on a misty road with a red-haired child, the picture of innocence and bright potential. This would be his freedom, he decided, and he stole the child's soul with the power the witch had granted him... only to discover that the Mists had delivered him to the moment that started his own torment. The Nightmare Man's hollowness and lack of emotion was the result of him stealing from himself as a child, and all he could capture from the moment was the feel of lost innocence. Unable to recognize his own self as either child or man and knowing only that he had sown the seeds of his own destruction, he fled into the Mists and emerged into a realm made just for him, a realm in which each of his stolen souls - including the witch's familiar, who represented his betrayal of both himself and her - manifested as co-regents, each with their own hungers. The Nightmare Man has been reduced to nothing more than a malevolent will that animates the hundreds of spiders who weave his cloak and let him imagine himself to be something other than a hollow void.

And he experiences fear like no other before - only as an observer, incapable of harnessing it himself except to give to others, never able to capture it except as a mirror of another's emotions, and unable to channel it into his art because his paint turns to blood. He is the master puppeteer behind the architects of a thousand thousand nightmares and none of them will ever belong to him.

This too. This is a good Nightmare to have.

The Sea was not necessarily a domain as a whole before the darklord appeared - it would have existed as the sea of many other domains, and any experience of sailing through it to reach another would have been due to the Mists. The domain he plies, after all, does not incorporate coastal waters.

Hmm. Interesting idea. As an alternate, would it break anything if I were to decide that Pieter van Riese was there from the beginning of the Sea? Or is it important that he only appeared during the Upheavel?

Just gonna ask me to make up more stuff for their underdeveloped slacker corners, are you? You know perfectly well that none of these were ever substantially detailed in canon.

Ugh. I hate slacker corners. Frigging *mumble grumble*

[afroakuma]

Is there any Afrocanon on who or what the Dark Powers actually are?

There... is... and bear in mind that I don't think the Dark Powers should be defined, not even by me. I've played around with it a lot, especially in the wake of 5E deciding to implement a firm definition and getting it horribly wrong. I would recommend that nobody read all the way through this, although I already know most of you are going to ignore me and drill all the way down

Spoiler: Defining the Dark Powers

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Let's start with what we categorically know the Dark Powers are not, which involves looking at the two explanations that have been published, one in the decanonized novel Lord of the Necropolis, and more recently in the 5E release Van Richten's Awful Take On Ravenloft or whatever it's called.

• The Dark Powers are not a group of fiends living on the Negative Energy Plane who created the Demiplane of Dread as a stepping stone to invade the Prime Material Plane and manipulated the life of Azalin in order to supply themselves with a wizard who could become the key to unlocking the gate. Let's face it, there are far too many problems with this theory, not the least of which is that it's awfully darn easy to make a portal between the two planes, considerably easier than... you know... creating a demiplane and kidnapping who even knows how many of the multiverse's worst evils, many of whom are quite clearly not candidates for awesome wizardry powers, in the hope of successfully farming up a sufficiently strong wizard.

• The Dark Powers are not vestiges. They clearly have the capacity to directly touch and influence things within the multiverse proper, to say nothing of the fact that I'm sorry 5E what the devil do you mean Shami-Amourae is a Dark Power? A third-rate ex-succubus queen is one of the inscrutable architects of Gothic nightmare? Please.

So those are really dumb answers. How anyone arrived at them is anyone's guess.

If we're going to define the Dark Powers, which again we should not be doing, we have to look at established facts about them, scant though they may appear:

Spoiler: What do we know about the Dark Powers?

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• The Dark Powers collect evil beings from across the multiverse.
• In particular, they do not collect the worst villains, the most powerful wizards, the most depraved murderers. They are highly selective. It's not merely about being the worst.
• It's also not all forms of evil - they never voluntarily collect fiends.
• They are also specific about when they collect their targets - Lord Soth's most dramatically awful act, for example, was over 300 years before he was taken.
• The Dark Powers do not simply collect darklords, or even darklord candidates; often, they draw in those who can challenge and provoke their darklords/candidates (for instance, adventurers).
• The Dark Powers never tempt the innocent; they await the guilty. Those who find damnation under their power do so at their own hands.
• The Dark Powers rarely ever communicate in any fashion. They are highly selective about how such communication transpires.
• The Dark Powers tailor each prison and curse to each darklord. These often include incredible powers or status as an ironic reward intended to dissatisfy and frustrate.
• Every darklord is accorded a torment that they could escape through their own agency. What keeps darklords bound for eternity is their own inability to exhibit remorse.
• The Dark Powers deeply dislike entities of belief existing within the boundaries of the Demiplane of Dread. Those who arrive accidentally may be expelled. Those who arrive voluntarily are pushed to be bound into the fabric of the Land, and cause notable distortion and interference.
• Darklords have a demonstrated proclivity to be personally bound to or otherwise have their fates tied up in specific relics within their domains. This is not an absolute, but it's a very common recurring pattern.
• Darklords are bound to the Land. If a darklord is slain and not replaced, the Land is likely to vanish into the Mists. If another sufficient candidate is within the domain, they may become the new darklord.
• The Dark Powers and their purpose are canonically "witnessed" only once (potentially); the effect of this is that the observer becomes disconnected from reality, believing his whole life has been nothing more than a nightmare and that he himself might not truly exist.
• The Dark Powers' intervention is directly seen only when a darklord is not playing their role; this has been seen when they tortured Soth for withdrawing into memory instead of enduring his torment.

This tells us that it's not merely evil that attracts the attention of the Dark Powers, nor do they tend to choose overt tortures for their prisoners. There is always, in effect, the possibility of release. That it (almost) never happens speaks to the natures of those who are drawn in by the Dark Powers - they are full of conviction regarding a specific thing, and will betray that conviction when provoked to do so, even though they should learn what happens. Their refusal to acknowledge that they are the agents of their own torment is, evidently, critical to what draws the Dark Powers' attention.

Spoiler: Yeah yeah so what's your theory already

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The Dark Powers are... exactly what it says on the tin. Just as dark matter is the invisible counterpart to matter, so too are the Dark Powers... effectively dark powers. Not evil powers - evil gods have always existed. No, they are rather powers in a way opposite to how normal deities form. Gods are entities of belief, of faith, of convictions. The Dark Powers are the opposite.

The Dark Powers are formed from faithlessness. Not atheism, not merely not believing in something. No, they are the entities of self-deception, hypocrisy, of strong conviction breaking to a weak and petty reed. If faith is the flame of a candle, pure and warm and bright, the Dark Powers draw on that which emerges when this fire is snuffed abruptly and then relit. Embers. Smoke. Fumes. A shadowy cloud roiling within the Astral, the turbulence of souls that cast aside their most heartfelt beliefs while continuing to hold them important emotionally.

Their chosen targets are those who exhibit this kind of faithlessness to a particular degree, one made worse by the scope and scale of the consequences. It is not enough to be wicked, nor is it helpful if an evil character does good, or a lawful character does something chaotic. The kind of hypocritical conviction needed is evil by nature, and may be perpetrated by those of goodly bent who have a slip (such as Jander Sunstar) or those who have long ago slid into depravity and evil but remain utterly convinced of their purity. Nor is it something that can be found in those who have the legitimate support of their deity in pursuing their flawed convictions. There must be a betrayal, and there must be a refusal to admit it, to the self and to others. Finally, and most crucially, they must have an opportunity to learn from their mistakes, admit their wrongdoing, and recognize the pain they have caused - and it must be something that will tempt them and torment them.

Why? Well, for two reasons - firstly, the Dark Powers are sustained by this exact kind of belief system, the faithlessness of their captives feeding them. More importantly, however, the Dark Powers struggle to exert themselves within a multiverse whose foundations are composed of true belief. The Demiplane of Dread is an experiment in determining whether faithlessness can be converted to honest conviction - not mere self-delusion. The Dark Powers want to discover, through these flawed vessels that feed them so, whether their own natures can be transformed if the poisons of the soul that give rise to that which feeds them are purged. For this reason, their prisons constantly push a cyclical torment on each prisoner, forcing them to confront their flaws and self-deceptions over and over again, testing them to see if they will rise to the challenge or break against it. Of late, the Dark Powers have been happy to use existing prisons to entrap and evaluate their own creations, given shape by the wickedness of a Prime being but fashioned from the essence of faithlessness. If the Dark Powers could have one of their own evolve to admit their wrongdoings, it would be an even greater triumph for them.

This is also why Vecna was such a prize for them that they couldn't help themselves - an actual entity of belief devoid of his own convictions, and of such vast power? Vecna was the ultimate experiment, a being they should have never been able to confine, who reveled in certainty that he knew exactly what had happened to him (he did not) and that he could escape (he obviously did, but it took a lot of help), but even recognizing that he was being baited using the vampire next door, still ended up playing their games, to his ultimate detriment. The nature of the Demiplane as being founded on hypocrisy, self-distrust, and broken conviction is part of what enabled Vecna to use it as such an effective catapult to get into Sigil - it is in a very real sense the antithesis of a power.

If Vecna was their greatest test, Strahd is their favorite test subject - he upon whose sins the Demiplane was founded in the first place. Strahd's self-betrayal comes many times over, but most crucially he is fueled by a monstrous certainty that he is in love with and will be loved by Tatyana, and a willingness to wait forever to prove to himself that he is right. Strahd's willingness to cross any and all lines to get what he believes he is entitled to, not to mention his willingness to pass up opportunities to escape or to gain more power or to eliminate a hated foe in order to pursue Tatyana, make him a constant source of pain for himself and others, an undead monument to self-deception, unwilling to acknowledge that he broke his vows by working with a fiend, abandoned his desire for family out of envy, and invented a love that pushed him to transform into something that would never be loved and commit an unspeakable crime in the process for that very same reason. Strahd will never acknowledge that he does not deserve Tatyana's love and cannot take his brother's place; Azalin will always struggle harder and harder to escape and sow the seeds of his own failure; Drakov will never abandon his futile struggles for conquest and admit he's not a general; and so on, and so on.

As to their two main escapees... neither has proven to be a success, so the Dark Powers' grand experiment continues. Vecna escaped by breaching the laws of the multiverse, and while he will always be haunted by his time imprisoned in the Demiplane of Dread - and provided them interesting observations in the process - he did not change or regain his convictions. In fact, yet again his self-sabotage proved his undoing. As for Soth, the death knight was freed because they broke him - he acknowledged his faults and crimes but did not repent, and ultimately this acknowledgement resulted in him abandoning any conviction, rather than rebuilding it. They released him because Soth had nothing more to give.

By what metric will they be satisfied? It's hard to know for certain. Was the Great Conjunction their own doing? Almost certainly not - the results could never have favored them, though they remain darkly pleased that their understanding of both Azalin and Strahd bore fruit, and they have reconsolidated the Demiplane stronger than ever. Vecna's escape challenged their absolute control, but the Dark Powers always viewed him as an ambitious prize to hold onto in any event. What is important to them is that their dark and terrifying realm is slowly beginning to bear fruit - even Soth snapping represents important information for them to collect. The Manusa legend of the Vistani alludes to "shadows of the gods" and certainly this is what the Dark Powers would seem to be.

How many Dark Powers are there? What are they named? What forms do they take? What are their powers and limitations? These questions can still never be answered, and it is quite possible that ultimately the Dark Powers themselves do not fully know, because they are in many ways a kind of shadow, an emergence from the toxic fumes of souls false to themselves clouding the Astral Plane. We conjecture, with good reason, that there is one Dark Power (at least) cast out from the others for desiring to be a god and provocateur and rule over a world in the manner of a deity. That one is known as the Red Death, and the world over which its shadow is cast is known as Gothic Earth. The Red Death is actively malefic, though no less remote and inscrutable, and it is theorized that it was cast out for the crime of actively tempting someone into faithlessness in pursuit of greater power for itself - in effect surrendering to a sense of inevitability with regards to its inherent nature, and threatening to drag its peers down along with it.

Now, I'm sure that was disappointing, because any definition of the Dark Powers kind of has to be, inevitably. Which is why I told you not to read this.

Hmm. Interesting idea. As an alternate, would it break anything if I were to decide that Pieter van Riese was there from the beginning of the Sea? Or is it important that he only appeared during the Upheavel?

He's not stupendously relevant, so I mean, you do you.

Ugh. I hate slacker corners. Frigging *mumble grumble*

I mean feel free to admit you just want me to make stuff up

Or you could go look at fan netbooks and resources and use those materials. I've seen some and I feel they missed the mark here and there, so I don't subscribe to their ideas.

[Tzardok]

Defining the Dark Powers

Propably the best fitting definition I saw. Something's still missing though... hmm...

Or you could go look at fan netbooks and resources and use those materials. I've seen some and I feel they missed the mark here and there, so I don't subscribe to their ideas.

Some of those aren't bad.

I mean feel free to admit you just want me to make stuff up

You are the best making-stuff-upper around.

Incidentally, Dalmosh and I had requests a page ago, regarding making stuff up about the Black Abyss and the Plane of Mirrors.

[Bohandas]

@afro re. the Dark Powers post

That sounds similar to your take on Carceri. Or rather, your take on Carceri sounds similar to this.

Do you think the two planes are in any way connected?

[Fable Wright]

Now, I'm sure that was disappointing, because any definition of the Dark Powers kind of has to be, inevitably. Which is why I told you not to read this.

For what it's worth, I find it a good explanation. It explains the why and the logic without cutting down on their individual mystery or the scope of their powers, and contextualizes them in the greater multiverse in a way that lets me use them as greater-scope allies or enemies.

I find it satisfying.

@afro re. the Dark Powers post

That sounds similar to your take on Carceri. Or rather, your take on Carceri sounds similar to this.

Do you think the two planes are in any way connected?

Carceri is victim and crab bucket mentality writ large, formed into a prison; whereas the Demiplane of Dread is a prison of your own convictions. While superficially similar, the fundamental difference is that in Carceri, everyone else will drag you back every inch of progress you make out of it, while Ravenloft will torment you by offering a rope out labeled "you're wrong" and watching you squirm by not accepting it.

I really don't think they're connected.

[afroakuma]

Propably the best fitting definition I saw. Something's still missing though... hmm...

I mean I did warn you not to read it. I take no blame, you knew what you were getting into.

Some of those aren't bad.

I mean what they did to Althea was just plain rude. Obvious, yes, but also deeply unfair.

You are the best making-stuff-upper around.

Yeah yeah.

Incidentally, Dalmosh and I had requests a page ago, regarding making stuff up about the Black Abyss and the Plane of Mirrors.

Ugh, yeah, that's gonna be a lot. Gonna keep a pin in those for the moment.

@afro re. the Dark Powers post

That sounds similar to your take on Carceri. Or rather, your take on Carceri sounds similar to this.

Do you think the two planes are in any way connected?

Nope. There are some thin similarities, but it's important to understand that in the Demiplane of Dread, there's no clarity of "escape" as a purpose, it's more about "ending torment" - the darklords do not have a ton of idea that they're trapped in a particular way for the most part, or otherwise know that to do thing A will result in benefit B. It's a private little morality play for each of them that they all keep failing because of very personal reasons, and their domains only ever reflect back what they deserve. Carceri is very much "a prison to escape" - it's right there in the name - and everyone there is a prisoner of the same sort. It's not personal, it's festering the same set of toxic emotions and attitudes within all of them. Paranoia. Spite. Selfishness. Carceri is a hell in which everyone jails one another. In the Demiplane of Dread, the darklords are their own victims. Most pointedly, Carceri is absolutely the appropriate cosmic destination for those who hold true to convictions (where those convictions involve being a heinous jerk). The Demiplane of Dread hungers for those who violate their own convictions.

Ultimately, the fundamental contrast comes down to that the Demiplane of Dread wants to see if you can change, even though it deliberately provokes and screws with you to test you. Carceri doesn't want you to change except to get even worse. Once you're in, it never wants to let you go.

Anyway, on to the making stuff up bit.

How did Jack Karn, Baron Lyron Ebonsong and Althea become darklords of their respective domains (respectively Ferelle, Liffe and the island of Demise)?

Bearing in mind that I've basically had to do this wholecloth:

Spoiler: Jack Karn

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The jackalwere Karn was infamous even among his own kind for his absolute hatred of humans. He would pass up other prey for the chance to tear apart a human, and considered all humans to be beasts no better than sheep. So vicious was his contempt that he was well-known for hounding individual humans, wounding them but leaving them alive simply to enjoy their agony. His infamy spread and he became a figure of fear - the Night Hound, a legendary brigand as much as a legendary beast, and as his tale spread, it reached others of his kind. A female travelled to the lands Karn favored, making her lair in a wooded copse, and sought him out with intent to mate with the fearsome terror Karn. The two joined, and she produced a child by him.

Karn began to notice that the human population in the region was beginning to decline, far moreso than his own predations would cause. Assuming human form despite his disgust, he travellled among their villages to discern if there was something out of the ordinary - a war between the sheep, or a plague felling the helpless beasts, anything he could gloat over - but no, the only thing they attributed it to was monsters in the night. Worse, they were no longer speaking of the legendary Night Hound, but instead talking as though he was a mere predatory animal rather than the glorious apex predator and icon of terror he had built himself up to be.

Karn returned to the wooded lair to share his discoveries with his mate, who revealed that she had planned a marvelous surprise for him. Knowing how much he despised humans, and wanting to make a mark on the land for their son, she had gathered the pack of jackalweres from her own homeland and brought them together here. In two nights, she told him, they would move out en masse, engaging in a glorious bloodbath of carnage, purging the humans from their land, reducing them to a bare handful to torture for sport.

In theory, Karn should have been thrilled - after all, every fiber of him hated humans, and to massacre them all alongside his kindred, creating a hunting ground over which he would reign supreme? That should have been his dream... but all Karn could think of was how much he would miss hounding a victim through the night, the screams of his "sheep" as they fell beneath his fangs, the dark satisfaction of filling his belly with human flesh and lording his supremacy over them. The cull was his, Karn reasoned, and these interlopers were depriving him of his sport. In his silent fury, Karn devised a solution to ensure that the human population would never decline to the point that he might need to exist on lesser prey, deprived of the sadistic pleasures he had come to enjoy from tormenting his "flock." Taking the form of a friendly tinker, Karn went to the nearest village and warned the humans there of a pack of jackalweres assembling in a wooded copse, predators who would surely destroy them. A mob was raised, and with torches and pitchforks they went forth to the copse that had been Karn's lair, setting it ablaze. The jackalwere stood before the blaze, remembering only as the fires reached their height that his mate and child were within. He could see them in the depths - trapped under a burning branch. It would have been well within his power to save them, but in that moment, surrounded by his hated prey, all that Karn could think of was how he would never go hungry again, never have to share with another. He turned away, and the rolling smoke concealed the Mists that wrapped around him.

Now the darklord of his own domain, "Jack" Karn has exactly what he always wanted - the human population of Farelle is thriving, their numbers growing with every season. The darklord has more humans than he knows what to do with, but none of them see him as anything but a friendly tinker and travelling merchant. The jackalweres of the land do not recognize him either, although they know and revere the "Night Hound" and await his return. The people of Farelle are a simple folk - so simple that Jack Karn finds himself constantly roaming his domain to put the skills he has developed as a tinker to service to keep the humans from failing due to their ineptitude. He repairs plows and wagon wheels, mends crossbows, and is constantly conveying needed goods between the two main towns of the island and outlying farms. The wolf has become the shepherd, hating that he has to protect and support the humans lest their own incompetence reduce their numbers.

For Karn has discovered something horrific about this new land - his fears about there being insufficient humans are reflected by it with a curse on him. Should the population fall below a certain level, his curse slowly begins transforming him into a human - forever. As well, the same fears he harnessed to slaughter his own kind remain buried within the populace of the isle. Whenever Karn succumbs to his hunger and takes his true form as a jackal, he appears as a monstrous shadowy hound with glowing eyes - and someone always spots him and sends up a cry of alarm. For 48 hours, Karn remains bound to his jackal form while mobs of humans hunt for him. As for his ability to command his domain, Jack Karn is no lord and holds no status, except insofar as he can command the dogs and jackals of Farelle telepathically. His presence is also inherently soothing to humans around him while in human form, an intensification of the soporific gaze of the jackalwere. Karn has to carefully manage the beasts whose appetites drive them to rip apart humans to feast on, lest their depredations threaten to trigger his curse.

The terrible irony that Karn refuses to acknowledge is that the humans would in fact be perfectly capable of building and growth of numbers without his constant intervention - indeed, the "blessing" that ensures humans will always be calm in his presence, allowing him to meddle in their affairs without suspicion, is in fact just self-reinforcement of Karn's belief that humans are no better than sheep and incapable of survival without his agency. The darklord moves among them, lives among them, works most of his life for their benefit, while hating every single thing about them and the role he plays - and he does not have to. If Karn were capable of believing the humans to be more than livestock for his hungers, he might realize that he doesn't need to live as something he hates, day in and day out - but his contempt runs so deep that he would rather send his canines to scare off his own kind in order to protect and preserve the prey he so completely and utterly despises, allowing him to reinforce his belief in their inferiority.

In short, the jackal has become a shepherd to a flock that only require a shepherd because he believes they do, living in fear of the fruit of his hatred and hunger. Everything he does is unnecessary and he is totally incapable of even considering that possibility, for to do so would be to admit that humans are more than sheep.

Baron Evensong's story is known in full and pretty dull. He believed himself a just and moral man who would teach others through song, and when others failed to "learn" from him, he decided to up the ante by having his harpsichord magically enchanted to have power over human souls. The enchantment messed up and drew his own life force into it, but shriven of mortality, the Baron decided that what he could not do with magic, he'd do the old-fashioned way. After all, if people wouldn't heed his instructions, they obviously deserved to die, right? Only ever able to see people as objects to compel to his will, the Baron went on a murdering spree and ended up in Ravenloft, where he gets to spend each evening totally alone - for 100 years at a time. Now he recognizes the value of others, as his centuries of solitude madden him - but he remains convinced of his righteousness and believes that he deserves to be able to have company during his torments, because of how good a person he is. In so doing, not only does he deny himself an opportunity for release and commit further atrocity; he also directly imperils himself, for the harpsichord containing his life force is part of the library, and his guests can destroy it and end his existence for good.

As for Althea... I'll have to get back to you on that. I severely dislike the fanon version as it stands but there's very little to work with on her.

[Delvin Anaris]

Vecna seems to figure into a bunch of different things, but I'm unclear on the order in which they happen. Do you have some kind of a summary of Vecna's personal timeline?

[enderlord99]

Personalized for the individual, in such a way that there is always a way to escape yet that way is (almost) never recognized nor attempted... that sounds familiar.

[Tzardok]

A very short and minimalistic timeline.

• A long time ago: Vecna's mother is executed for practicing forbidden magic. Vecna swears revenge.
• Some time later: Vecna becomes a lich and builds an empire with his undead army. He gives his loyal right hand, the vampire Kas, an intelligent sword to ensure his loyalty.
• On the height of Vecna's power and the eve of his triumph Kas, who was driven insane by his sword, betrays Vecna and cuts of his eye and hand. At the end of the fight, both of them are thrown into different planes. Vecna's empire breaks apart and fades into Flan folklore.
• Vecna, who over the centuries ascended to demigodhood, tries a plan to become a greater god and ruler of Oerth by concentrating all his divine self into a single avatar and enter Oerth. He is defeated as part of the adventure Vecna Lives!. After his defeat he is in the weakened position to be drawn into the mists of Ravenloft. The year is 580 CY in Oerth and 750 BC in Ravenloft (for comparison, 3.0 starts in Oerth with 591 CY and 3.5 starts in Ravenloft with 758 BC).
• Vecna attempts to escape his domain in the adventure Vecna Reborn.
• In Die Vecna Die!, the last adventure of 2e, Vecna lures Iuz into Ravenloft and devoures him to kickstart his own ascension to greater godhood and catapult himself wholy into Sigil. There he attempts to reshape the Great Wheel in his image. The players defeat him, allowing the Lady of Pain to dropkick him back to the Material Plane. Then she repairs the damage Vecna did to the multiverse (which is the justification for the differences between 2e and 3e). Vecna falls back down to lesser god.

[afroakuma]

Vecna seems to figure into a bunch of different things, but I'm unclear on the order in which they happen. Do you have some kind of a summary of Vecna's personal timeline?

Shouldn't be too hard.

• Vecna is born as a member of an untouchable caste descended from the Ur-Flan in the Flan city of Fleeth to his mother Mazzel, a minor practitioner of arcane arts.
• Vecna is introduced by his mother to the Serpent, an indeterminate entity of magic who promises vast power to the young wizard.
• Vecna's mother is executed by the government for practicing witchcraft. Vecna vows revenge.
• And then we skip one thousand years.
• At some point, Vecna pens a foundational tome of dark arts, Ordinary Necromancy. He is also believed to have authored additions to the Book of Vile Darkness.
• Now a lich and ruler of an empire stretching across the Sheldomar Valley region, Vecna lays siege to the city of Fleeth, nearly being destroyed and only surviving thanks to the help of his cambion servitor Acererak.
• Vecna conquers Fleeth and murders everyone except the leaders of the city, purely so they can live with the nightmare he built in the ruins of their land.
• Vecna is betrayed by Kas and thought destroyed except for his Hand and Eye.
• Vecna arises as a demigod. His cult plans to raise him to the power of a demigod through a ritual involving the ancient stone circles of Tovag Baragu. This fails due to the involvement of Iuz and Vecna ends up being drawn into the Demiplane of Dread.
• Vecna tries to defeat Kas by using powerful magic to cross from his own domain into the vampire's. Adventurers ruin his plans.
• Vecna's cult inveigles Iuz to be drawn to the Demiplane of Dread, where Vecna uses him as a springboard and power source to escape and invade Sigil.
• Vecna nearly tears down the multiverse and then adventurers wielding his own relics weaken his foothold. As soon as his grasp slips, the Lady of Pain throws him out at top speed. Vecna loses control of Iuz's powers and throws his Hand and Eye away in a fit of pique.
• A splinter cult called the Ebon Triad attempts to merge Hextor, Vecna, and Erythnul. Vecna is not on board. Their plans fail.
• And that brings us to the present!

[Bohandas]

What's going on with Iuz that he keeps getting trapped in places (by demigod Vecna, by pre-ascension Zagyg, by a simulacrum of his mother...)

[Khedrac]

What's going on with Iuz that he keeps getting trapped in places (by demigod Vecna, by pre-ascension Zagyg, by a simulacrum of his mother...)

He's not the brightest spark and seems to have a positive genius for falling for the same trick twice...

Spoiler: Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk

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Yes, in the 3.5 hardback adventure he (briefly) gets trapped by Zagyg's Godtrap again. He really doesn't learn from his mistakes.

To be honest, as an actual deity he'd be ruling a lot more of The Flanaess if he wasn't so inept - there are very few high-level characters about to properly oppose him.