afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Silly Name]

It's not necessarily an alternate plane but there is the world of Uerth from Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which has evil doubles of the people of Oerth (or a good double if the original was evil).

So, what goes on on Aerth, Eerth and Ierth?

[Naanomi]

Old One 37+ (equivalent to Overdeity)

I disagree with this part. I buy that Overdeities serve the Old One's interested, but the Old Ones are at least one stage (and possible more) 'beyond' them in the Cosmological corporate ladder... With incalculably greater abilities and scope of influence. Overdeities worry about single aspects of single Crystal Spheres... Old Ones worry about cosmologies (though, to be fair, 'worry' is a bit much... Mostly just create them and then move on to the next project)

So, what goes on on Aerth, Eerth and Ierth?

Oerth, Aerth, Uerth, Yarth, and Earth all exist; each one similar but vary (mostly on how strong the magic is there). Earth has essentially no magic (you may be familiar with this setting).

There is a number of small canonical crossover events. It is sometimes implied that some modules take place in the 'less magic than Oerth but not no magic like Earth' settings... Castle Amber, Masque of the Red Death, etc.

[Thurbane]

It's not necessarily an alternate plane but there is the world of Uerth from Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which has evil doubles of the people of Oerth (or a good double if the original was evil). Apparently the Iron Bands of Bilarro magic item is named after Lord Robilar's double on Uerth.

(There was also the Doppel Cosmology from page 215 of the 3e manual of the planes, but that was explicitly not part of the standard cosmology)

Very interesting, I might try to track down more info...

[afroakuma]

Very interesting, I might try to track down more info...

There's relatively little, but here it is for you:

• Oerth is the one "fully within" the D&D cosmology as we know it.
• Aerth is less magical than Oerth but has closer ties with its fey boundary and remains a pretty darn magical place. It is outside the conventional D&D cosmology and closely parallels Earth.]
• Yarth is a bit more Conan-esque and is considerably lower-magic than Oerth, but still has a sprinkling of magic-users and magic items, and plenty of monsters. It is outside the conventional D&D cosmology. Yarth closely parallels Oerth.
• Uerth is even less magical, with magic being an uncertain and hard-to-use force. It may be cognate to Gothic Earth, the world of Masque of the Red Death. If not, it would likely be outside the conventional D&D cosmology. Uerth's paralleling is unknown. It is believed to be a "bizarro" world where evil cognates exist to good characters and vice versa.
• Earth is interesting because we know of two Earths in canon - our own, which is entirely nonmagical and outside the conventional cosmology, and Gothic Earth, where magic exists but is dangerous and rare. It is plausible that Gothic Earth is actually "Uerth."

[Tzardok]

This was actually a really interesting question to delve into, and in fact might address something that Tzardok wanted regarding the Dark Powers.

You know what? It does. Thank you.

They are deliberately left undefined, but they aren't anyone you might be thinking of. In fact, they aren't individual lords at all - elemental clerics may forge pacts with any number of beings who qualify as an "elemental lord," not just one unique individual for each element. They are powerful and often special elemental beings tied to the specific pockets of each Inner Plane that are concerned with Athas, regions substantially distinctive from their host plane by and large. For example, the Athasian Air boundary is a cloudy realm in which the clouds are "solid" and can be walked on, whereas in Air proper, this is a rare phenomenon; similarly, the Athasian Fire boundary is crimson earth ringed in labyrinthine walls of flame, a far cry from the endless inferno of Fire proper.

Oh, I wasn't expecting names, or any relation to a named being from outside. I also didn't think that there was a single lord per element, I just hoped that, when there is mention of lords and of organized warfare in their name, that their is something regarding elemental society, or if the lords are simply big elementals or unique beings or a specific race or somehow different from the average elemental. If there is nothing, well *shrug*

[Thurbane]

While doing some research into siege weapons, I came across mention of Kezefbane - a magical siege engine/artifact - in City of Splendors: Waterdeep.

Couldn't seem to turn up much on this item online, apart from the fact it may feature in the novel Thornhold?

Any thoughts? Any stats? Any relationship to Kezef the Chaos Hound?

[Caelestion]

It's almost certainly related, yes. How, I don't know.

[Naanomi]

Used in the Second Troll War to break the siege on Waterdeep... Controlled by three magic rings... Last seen hidden in Blackstaff tower... Mentioned in the City of Splendor books, and maybe Dragon #251... Not sure about the novels though

[Thurbane]

Seeing as Kezef has DR 15 admantine and good (CoR p.145), maybe it's projectiles count as adamantine and holy?

[afroakuma]

While doing some research into siege weapons, I came across mention of Kezefbane - a magical siege engine/artifact - in City of Splendors: Waterdeep.

Couldn't seem to turn up much on this item online, apart from the fact it may feature in the novel Thornhold?

It does, and sadly while I own it, it's in storage and I never actually read it. It'll be a while before I can properly consult it to verify.

Any stats?

Nope.

Any relationship to Kezef the Chaos Hound?

Probably not, oddly. A siege weapon is not exactly practical in re: smooshing a plane-strolling doom dog.

Any thoughts?

What we know is that it's a siege engine that can magically change in size, and is affiliated with Tyr. It was brought to bear against trolls, so it's possible that it confers some benefits against fast healing and regeneration. My best guess as to its origin is that when the gods trapped Kezef, Gond had made Tyr a bracelet that would resist the Chaos Hound's mighty jaws, forged from the same material that constituted Kezef's chains. It had the power to resize so that no amount of compressive force could crush it apart. Tyr refused to wear it out of concern that such cowardice might alert Kezef to the strength of the chains before he was bound, should the Hound think to test the strength of it.

Now, how it ended up as a siege weapon with that name... well, we just have to wait until I get my hands on that novel.

[Bullet06320]

https://www.tsrarchive.com/3f/WATERDEEP2CX.PDF

kezefbane is mentioned here on pg 11 briefly

every reference i could find points to the novel thornhold. for more information read the book i geuss, lol
its been well over a decade since i read it so i dont recall

[Tzardok]

Got another Ravenloft question, specifically about the domain of Gundarak. 2e sources indicate that when it appeared, the Gundarakites revered Nerull. 3.x replaced him with Erlin. If they really were Nerull worshippers, that implies that Gundarak originally hails from the Flanaess. Are there any signs where Gundarak was originially located? Or would it be better to just take Erlin and ignore that Nerull was ever a thing there, so that Gundarak can remain setting-removed?

Also, what can you tell me about the domain of Malosia?

[afroakuma]

Got another Ravenloft question, specifically about the domain of Gundarak. 2e sources indicate that when it appeared, the Gundarakites revered Nerull. 3.x replaced him with Erlin.

That source is irrelevant, given that it's a third-party book that was specifically required to drop references to WotC-owned game worlds. The only thing I'd do with one of their books is set it on fire.

If they really were Nerull worshippers, that implies that Gundarak originally hails from the Flanaess. Are there any signs where Gundarak was originially located?

Egh... we could probably look at names and do some kind of comparison or poke-about to infer where it would have originated, but Gundarak was never particularly interesting and neither is Oerth geography.

Also, what can you tell me about the domain of Malosia?

If you've heard of it, you have everything there is on it. Knowing that there's only the one novel, no sourcebook coverage, and that it's all summarized on the Ravenloft wiki page for that domain and darklord, do you have any questions about it you feel I could answer that those resources cannot?

[Dalmosh]

What are relations like between Eberron Mindflayers and those of other Prime Worlds or the planes?

[Tzardok]

Egh... we could probably look at names and do some kind of comparison or poke-about to infer where it would have originated, but Gundarak was never particularly interesting and neither is Oerth geography.

Maybe I'll come up with something and share it.

If you've heard of it, you have everything there is on it. Knowing that there's only the one novel, no sourcebook coverage, and that it's all summarized on the Ravenloft wiki page for that domain and darklord, do you have any questions about it you feel I could answer that those resources cannot?

Right. Stupid question. Ignore me.

What are relations like between Eberron Mindflayers and those of other Prime Worlds or the planes?

Propably don't know about each other.

[afroakuma]

Maybe I'll come up with something and share it.

Why must you keep focusing on underdeveloped garbage? A phrase which includes Oerth's stupid boring excuses for nations?

I went and did the research. Gundarak was never on Oerth, it was never anywhere except the Demiplane of Dread. Gundar wasn't selected by the Dark Powers, he just stupidly walked through a temporary portal and got stuck. Most likely he was from the Dim Forest between Geoff and Bissel, though where exactly he walked into the Mists is unknown.

Right. Stupid question. Ignore me.

I mean if you have something you want to ask, I'm all ears, I just don't know what to offer given that there has only ever been the one book and I'd literally just be paraphrasing the wiki at you.

What are relations like between Eberron Mindflayers and those of other Prime Worlds or the planes?

Virtually nonexistent. Illithids don't often collaborate between worlds at the best of times, and the vast majority of flayers on Eberron would have been - I'd have to check because I actively dislike and do not care about Eberron and haven't read the books in ages - created by the daelkyr, I believe, using methods they gleaned from the flayers of other worlds in their endless mad gazing across the cosmos for new horrible things to do.

[White Blade]

In Savage Species, Ritual of Vitality let's you change species. If a society mastered one such ritual that enabled them to turn their leading members into angels or archons, is there any reason that the angelic hosts might intervene to prevent them from doing so? Or would it be right to assume that only the Forces Of Evil would have an interest in stopping this?

[Tzardok]

In Savage Species, Ritual of Vitality let's you change species. If a society mastered one such ritual that enabled them to turn their leading members into angels or archons, is there any reason that the angelic hosts might intervene to prevent them from doing so? Or would it be right to assume that only the Forces Of Evil would have an interest in stopping this?

This reminds me of this answer.

[Bohandas]

What information is known about Ouiyanspace (aka The Broken Sphere)

[afroakuma]

What information is known about Ouiyanspace (aka The Broken Sphere)

We know it had 18 planets surrounding a powerful sun known as Aeyenna, that it existed for millennia before breaking, and that some of the worlds found in it included Thoris, Hedriana, Elias, Asveleyn, Resanel, Ondora, BedevanSov, Ladria, and Colurranur. Living beings native to the sphere included the aboleths (by definition, though they escaped through their own methods), the Sh'tarrgh, the Lovokei, the Broul, the Kutalla, and the Juna. The source of this information mentions humans, but it should be noted that this was likely driven by perspective bias, as the person observing the past through mental contact with the Spelljammer was himself human.

That's about it. Of the things so named above, we know essentially nothing but their names. I should mention that there's only one source for this info and it's... bad.

[Naanomi]

What was the path and fate of the souls of beings who died before the Outer Planes had formed?

What Prime race was dominant/prominent when the Gods first manifested? The True Ancestors? Juna? Reigar? Someone else?

[Edreyn]

Hello, everyone.
I have a question about Bytopia this time. As I understand, it happens, once in a while, that evil adventurers or even evil outsiders attack Upper Planes, for whatever reason. It was even in the OOTS comic.

Now, Celestia, Elesium and Arborea have their own armies of outsiders that bite. Beastlands can deploy countless dangerous animals, Ysgard is full of heroes eager to fight and Arcadia has an organized militia. What about Bytopia though? It's a pastoral place, with farmers and craftsman. Who and how will protect them if someone evil attacks?

[Naanomi]

Well, first I imagine if it was a large scale attack that Elysium and Celestia would get involved. Half the plane isn't exactly naturally safe to run around in either.

But beyond that, a big part of Byopia is communities banding together to face hardships together. I imagine farmers and miners and lumberjacks organizing mass militias and 'protecting the homestead', rallying to the aid of your neighbors, etc. A thousand 'gotta save the farm from them raiders', 'goblins are squatting in the mines and it is up to the miners to free it', 'hunter in the woods takes out the big bad wolf' scenarios at once. Not to say it would be chaotic or hyper individualized and disperse for long, it is a lawful leaning place that would pull together an organized front if necessary

[afroakuma]

What was the path and fate of the souls of beings who died before the Outer Planes had formed?

The Outer Planes, in a primitive state, appeared before incarnate souls did. Refer back to thread 5 - the Inner and the Outer both formed before the Prime proper.

What Prime race was dominant/prominent when the Gods first manifested? The True Ancestors? Juna? Reigar? Someone else?

None were either dominant or prominent; insofar as a "god" was present, technically Io arose before any Prime race, but he wasn't quite a god at that time. The first gods arose in response to the emergence of the first dragons, though these were little more than primal demiurges. The gods predated the Juna (god-created), the reigar (god-created) and other races. Not sure who the True Ancestors are supposed to be.

Now, Celestia, Elesium and Arborea have their own armies of outsiders that bite. Beastlands can deploy countless dangerous animals, Ysgard is full of heroes eager to fight and Arcadia has an organized militia. What about Bytopia though? It's a pastoral place, with farmers and craftsman. Who and how will protect them if someone evil attacks?

Bytopia is only half pastoral, the other half is Shurrock. Nobody could ever reasonably accuse Shurrock of being pastoral. Traders and adventurers move between the two layers, and represent a significant amount of combat potential if they were pressed to defend the plane against an incursion of evil. Too, the pastoral nature of the plane belies the diligence and self-sacrifice that denotes the character of Bytopians - they are resolute in ways that Arcadia's defense forces can only dream of, because they are motivated by the common good above any sense of law or order. Lastly, of course, the plane has powerful denizens such as adamantine dragons.

Bytopia is still one of the more vulnerable Upper Planes for incursions, mind you (Belierin, Karasuthra, and Ysgard are other common breakthrough points) but that evil is usually driven back into the depths of the earth with great ease.

[Naanomi]

Not sure who the True Ancestors are supposed to be.

{Edit: sorry 'real ancestors' not true ancestors}

I never got a good sense of that either. I see the term thrown around now and then (both in discussions and in actual gaming product) as the first 'spread life around to different worlds' species; sometimes in ways that makes me think of Juna but also placed on the timeline earlier than that.

I always imagined them as whichever Aboleth servitor race escaped control first and spread to the stars, but not with a lot of evidence other than timeline to base that assumption on.

[afroakuma]

{Edit: sorry 'real ancestors' not true ancestors}

I never got a good sense of that either. I see the term thrown around now and then (both in discussions and in actual gaming product) as the first 'spread life around to different worlds' species; sometimes in ways that makes me think of Juna but also placed on the timeline earlier than that.

I need to retrieve my books to check on this; my own impression is that the "real ancestors" were supposed to be the Juna, but that a disconnect between the novels and the game material caused those terms to get separated by fans. I have seen the timelines you refer to but they're a bit of a jumble and there is some weird stuff afoot there. We know the Juna were involved in the creation of the Spelljammer, and the novel makes no mention of any prior ancestral race. As far as I can tell, the "vedmoti" are a purely fan creation.

[Naanomi]

but that a disconnect between the novels and the game material caused those terms to get separated by fans

Seems very possible, it has been a long time since I've read any of it myself but I do remember it being... Poorly coordinated at best...

I'd love a good Spelljammer timeline (even moreso one that put it in context of larger Planar events) but I've never seen one that didn't seem at least a small bit fishy

----EDIT to add question/feedback request----

So does this look right to you for a rough broad strokes spelljammer timeline?

~Aboleth and their creations dominate the young Prime. Dragons of some kind are around, and some migrated elemental life here and there. Probably some other horrors and Beholders as well.

*(The War of Law and Chaos starts sometime but doesn't impact the Prime directly for a long time)

(Gods later make an appearance, much to Aboleth consternation)

~The Juna take to the stars (along with, probably to a lesser degree, other species from their sphere) and dominate the local spelljammer scene for quite a while. Gods have probably acted to create some other life here and there as well.

~The Juna decline, but a few other races relatively quickly move to be big players in the Prime... Early Kreen and the Reigar and their peers

~The Reigar collapse, leaving a brief lull in powerful Space powers; but the Arcane make an appearance and begin peddling Spelljamming tech that reboots the space race

~There is a period of time where known living races that are not in power in modern times flourish (most of your given 'old faded empires' not already mentioned)

(The War of Law and Chaos spills into the Prime more prominently, including Vaati domination of some Prime worlds and friends decimating some planets)

~The 'normal fantasy races' (elves, humans, dwarves) slowly displace the Kreen and Syllix and the like on the broad scale

~??? The first Unhuman War happens, which spread orcs and trolls and goblinoids to many worlds

(The War of Law and Chaos Ends)

~Illithid show up and throw everything into disarray for a period before the Gith rebellion

~More or less current Spelljammer setting stuff happening here on out

[Edreyn]

Thank you for your answer about Bytopia. Now more questions.

1) In old "Hordes of the Underdark", the expansion of Neverwinter Nights, in the end the hero is going against Mephistopheles. One of possible endings, non Canon I guess, is to use his True Name to make him become hero's subject, with hero becoming ruler of Cania, but ruling from Mephistopheles shadow.

My question is - even if hero would do everything correctly and make sure that Mephistopheles can't harm him directly or indirectly, is it possible that other baatezu, and most important - Asmodeus, won't feel that something is wrong? I thought Asmodeus knows about everything in Baator. Won't he or any other devil intervene? I think that hero's ruling as grey cardinal would last a few days tops - because others would want to have some amusement.

2) I think that there might be relatively similar places on different planes. For example if a traveler goes through a portal and finds himself in a cave with some minerals or valuable minerals. It can be Bytopia mines, Acheron mines, one of Ysgard layers or even a Plane of Earth. Can those be distinguished? Is there some kind of psychological feeling, a feel of Good or Evil? How can one quickly and harmlessly understand which Plane he is on?

[afroakuma]

Thank you for your answer about Bytopia. Now more questions.

1) In old "Hordes of the Underdark", the expansion of Neverwinter Nights, in the end the hero is going against Mephistopheles. One of possible endings, non Canon I guess, is to use his True Name to make him become hero's subject, with hero becoming ruler of Cania, but ruling from Mephistopheles shadow.

My question is - even if hero would do everything correctly and make sure that Mephistopheles can't harm him directly or indirectly, is it possible that other baatezu, and most important - Asmodeus, won't feel that something is wrong? I thought Asmodeus knows about everything in Baator. Won't he or any other devil intervene? I think that hero's ruling as grey cardinal would last a few days tops - because others would want to have some amusement.

Oh Asmodeus would absolutely know. He's not even your biggest problem, though - while the Lord Below would be aware, he would probably find it quite amusing, at least for a while. No, that honor goes to Mrs. Phistopheles - Baalphegor. She would definitely know, and the only reason she'd leave the insolent monkey alive is so that she could track down how it happened and ensure its erasure. That's not so say she'll necessarily go easy on her husband for it either. Eventually one or the other would be required to step in once a Duke of Hell or someone higher-up started feeling ambitious about taking over Cania, but it could plausibly go on for longer than a few days depending on their respective moods.

Mind you, the Lord of the Eighth's court might have something to say about it, too.

2) I think that there might be relatively similar places on different planes. For example if a traveler goes through a portal and finds himself in a cave with some minerals or valuable minerals. It can be Bytopia mines, Acheron mines, one of Ysgard layers or even a Plane of Earth. Can those be distinguished?

By someone with reasonable knowledge, absolutely.

Is there some kind of psychological feeling, a feel of Good or Evil?

Planar traits can certainly make you feel the differences, as well as the general vibe and atmosphere of the place - Bytopia is likely to be warm earth, Acheron likely to be gray and cold, Nidavellir preternaturally dark and sparkly.

How can one quickly and harmlessly understand which Plane he is on?

Buy a mimir, a handy dandy talking skull that serves as your own mini-Wikipedia of the planes. Provided its enchantment recognizes where you are, it'll tell you - though there are places where it will fail, and one never knows why. A sextant of the planes can provide information about the plane, but doesn't specifically name it. Divination spells will also be of use. Usually.

[Tzardok]

Does anybody know of a conversion of mimirs to 3.5?