afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[enderlord99]

Could a caste hierarchy be constructed?

Considering just how utterly chaotic Obyriths are, I'd go with "not accurately"

[Tzardok]

Considering just how utterly chaotic Obyriths are, I'd go with "not accurately"

But approximately, surely? The evolution hierarchy of tana'ri is after all just a vague ladder with more powerful caste-species on higher steps. More like digimon instead of pokemon.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Considering just how utterly chaotic Obyriths are, I'd go with "not accurately"

Personally, I've always considered it a bit...odd...that demons come in these nice "species" packages at all. I know it's mostly for convenience, but shouldn't creatures of the Abyss be more...chaotic? Slaadi, as I understand it at least, have some constraints that keep them from being just random things and force them into vaguely frog shapes. But I may be thinking of 5e on that one.

[afroakuma]

The closing paragraph of Die, Vecna, Die!

Firstly, hello Larkas! Been a while!

Secondly, oh goodie, that paragraph again

The only thing that remotely evokes what is said here, AFAIK, is the transition of the Shadow Plane into a full plane and the relocation of the Elemental Planes into the Astral, but these are, arguably, not the kind of changes indicated there. Do you know of any examples that more closely resemble what was said there?

We can pretty expeditiously say "no" to that one, given that we have a list of Outer Planes from before the events of DVD! and a list of Outer Planes after those events, and they're the same list.

Speculation question: do obyriths and loumara evolve over the course of their existence, like tana'ri do?

Loumaras very explicitly do not. Each type of loumara is born of the nightmarish reveries of a particular dead god and reflects said deity's portfolio in some warped, twisted fashion. Moreover, loumaras do not want to grow or change - they are driven by specific hungers and quite committed to them.

As for obyriths, obyriths can definitely transform into other obyriths, but I would not expect them to switch between known types - they'd mutate on fairly individualistic lines.

It seems likely, at least for obyriths, as ancient baatorians apparantly did.

Ah, but you forget - the ancient baatorians are lawful - a clear-cut progression of power and status is quite germane to them. Obyriths are what they wish to be, insofar as they have the will to be it, and the only thing limiting them is that reality itself doesn't want them to be what they truly are.

Could a caste hierarchy be constructed?

No.

Personally, I've always considered it a bit...odd...that demons come in these nice "species" packages at all. I know it's mostly for convenience, but shouldn't creatures of the Abyss be more...chaotic? Slaadi, as I understand it at least, have some constraints that keep them from being just random things and force them into vaguely frog shapes. But I may be thinking of 5e on that one.

Blame the sibriexes, they sculpted tanar'ri into useful forms. Even with that in mind, it's worth noting that demons are a quite chaotic bunch - it's not for nothing that we used to use generic "types" to describe approximate stature and power level rather than species names. As for why it still holds, unlike the slaad who are magically forced into progressing in a certain way, for demons it's got more to do with the endless cycle of bullying - you see the thing that torments you and say "I want to be that" and self-actualize your way up the chain.

Demons certainly deserve more mechanical support for their chaotic natures; I'll get around to homebrewing it eventually. Gotta love all the material I create for a dead system

[Larkas]

Firstly, hello Larkas! Been a while!

Way too long, my good Fro, way too long. Glad to see everything here’s in order!

[Tzardok]

Loumaras very explicitly do not. Each type of loumara is born of the nightmarish reveries of a particular dead god and reflects said deity's portfolio in some warped, twisted fashion. Moreover, loumaras do not want to grow or change - they are driven by specific hungers and quite committed to them.

Hmm. That could be an explanation in addition to their group's youth for why there are so few loumara demon lords. Would that mean that Sifkhu was born a demon lord? Would it be a "mutation" of a normal loumara type or could there be dead god who only rarely spawns, but when it does, it makes loumara lords? Or is ascension possible, just generally unwanted?

[Fable Wright]

Blame the sibriexes, they sculpted tanar'ri into useful forms. Even with that in mind, it's worth noting that demons are a quite chaotic bunch - it's not for nothing that we used to use generic "types" to describe approximate stature and power level rather than species names. As for why it still holds, unlike the slaad who are magically forced into progressing in a certain way, for demons it's got more to do with the endless cycle of bullying - you see the thing that torments you and say "I want to be that" and self-actualize your way up the chain.

So, bracing for a whack upside the head: what happens when a Planar Binding wizard is so vicious and bullying to a young demon that the dretch wants to be a wizard? Does the Dretch will itself to obtain Wizard or Sorcerer class levels through the power of spite, or does it create a custom form?

Follow-up question: Would a Dretch in Carceri evolve into a Demodand instead of a Tanar'ri? Is it possible for a Tanar'ri to become an Obyrith through the power of manifest spite?

[enderlord99]

So, bracing for a whack upside the head: what happens when a Planar Binding wizard is so vicious and bullying to a young demon that the dretch wants to be a wizard? Does the Dretch will itself to obtain Wizard or Sorcerer class levels through the power of spite, or does it create a custom form?

Probably both, but also, probably mostly the former. In regards to the latter, the new form wouldn't physically resemble the wizard's species, unless it does, but would be good at being a wizard.

[Tzardok]

Follow-up question: Would a Dretch in Carceri evolve into a Demodand instead of a Tanar'ri? Is it possible for a Tanar'ri to become an Obyrith through the power of manifest spite?

I would give it a tentative yes, but with the restriction that it would propably take ages. Take Pazuzu for example, he's still halfway on the evolution from obyrith to tana'ri and he's already been at it since the end of the War of Law and Chaos.

Of course, an alternate explanation would be that it's impossible and that you can't get closer than Pazuzu's current stage, i.e. aping the other "race" very well.

[Thealtruistorc]

A few odd questions I have based on some campaign elements I've been considering.

1. Do we have any idea as to the homeworlds of the elves and orcs and why their respective pantheons hate each other the way they do? How did this whole conflict begin?

2. How did the process of Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, and other gods creating their worshipper races function? If gods generally need concepts or portfolios to come into being, how did they then create the peoples which are an integral part of their portfolio?

3. Would it be appropriate for Kezef the Chaos Hound and Elf-Eater to have Elder Evil signs in the same manner as the entities in Elder Evils? If so, what sorts of setting-spanning signs would they show?

[afroakuma]

Hmm. That could be an explanation in addition to their group's youth for why there are so few loumara demon lords. Would that mean that Sifkhu was born a demon lord?

Most likely. And even with Sifkhu, the fact that he was dormant suggests they just don't have the juice to support many demon lords.

Would it be a "mutation" of a normal loumara type or could there be dead god who only rarely spawns, but when it does, it makes loumara lords? Or is ascension possible, just generally unwanted?

I suspect it wasn't a function of a particular god so much as a shared nightmare - a collective dread that spawned from multiple gods all focused on the same trauma. Unfortunately we know too little about Sifkhu to conjecture further.

So, bracing for a whack upside the head: what happens when a Planar Binding wizard is so vicious and bullying to a young demon that the dretch wants to be a wizard?

...how long do you expect the dretch to be exposed to said wizard? Also, while dretches are pretty stupid, they still recognize mortals to be inherently inferior to themselves (whether or not that's true). It's quite unlikely that a dretch would perceive any humanoid to be a role model, and the takeaways from their behavior would still steer the dretch toward aspirations to a kind of cruelty or methodology of spite and hatred that would probably resemble an existing demonic type.

Follow-up question: Would a Dretch in Carceri evolve into a Demodand instead of a Tanar'ri?

No. The two are very different things; it's not possible for a demon of any stripe to "evolve" into a tanar'ri.

Is it possible for a Tanar'ri to become an Obyrith through the power of manifest spite?

Absolutely not.

1. Do we have any idea as to the homeworlds of the elves and orcs and why their respective pantheons hate each other the way they do? How did this whole conflict begin?

Well... we don't have any official answers. I do have some afrocanon ideas as to those homeworlds, if you'd like, which would also tie into the roots of the conflict.

2. How did the process of Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, and other gods creating their worshipper races function? If gods generally need concepts or portfolios to come into being, how did they then create the peoples which are an integral part of their portfolio?

Gods come into being through belief, but they can also be animated through the agency of an overdeity - the original creator deities were all given a chance to make something and work with a piece of the cosmos, and each of them modelled a race to serve and worship them, infused with their own essence. Except Garl.

This process can of course backfire - Gorellik famously wanted to instill independence in his progeny, and gnolls ignore him to such a vast extent that he's a barely-sapient demipower. The deity of the reigar instilled them with an insatiable need to move forward and try new things, and they blew up their home planet so that they would never be tempted to go back. Needless to say, said deity is no longer, uh, alive. Many of the other elder races of the stars - the juna, the thri-kreen, the hurwaeti - no longer have active deities, and in many cases even the identity of those gods is not known.

3. Would it be appropriate for Kezef the Chaos Hound and Elf-Eater to have Elder Evil signs in the same manner as the entities in Elder Evils?

Kezef definitely not. Dendar yes, if only because Dendar escaping signals the end of Toril. Ityak-Ortheel... I would strongly lean no, given that it's barely got any agency of its own and only arrives on Toril at all through the actions of other evil agents (Malarites, almost exclusively so).

[Thealtruistorc]

Well... we don't have any official answers. I do have some afrocanon ideas as to those homeworlds, if you'd like, which would also tie into the roots of the conflict.

Yes, I would absolutely love to hear this.

[Bohandas]

Gods come into being through belief, but they can also be animated through the agency of an overdeity

Additionally, they can also come into being as progeny of existing deities* (or existing deity-like beings**) or ascend to godhood from mortality***

How did the process of Corellon, Gruumsh, Moradin, and other gods creating their worshipper races function? If gods generally need concepts or portfolios to come into being, how did they then create the peoples which are an integral part of their portfolio?

It's perhaps worth noting that gods' portfolios aren't necessarily fixed. They can change. Jergal is one example of this.

A perhaps more telling example however is that of Lolth. She's the goddess of Drow, but predates drow as a group. Prior to that she was presumably just the goddess of spiders.

As an alternatr explanation to Afro's explanation, it's entirely possible that they started out as much less powerful deities (of magic, war, forges, etc.) and only became powerful greater deities after creating a race designed to follow them

No. The two are very different things; it's not possible for a demon of any stripe to "evolve" into a tanar'ri.

Did you mean demodand (or both demodands and tanar'ri), the question was about evolving into demodands

In any case, what's the deal witn Lolth in this regard? I recall hearing in a couple places that she spent time as a specifically tanar'ri archdemon between her fall and her reascension back to godhood. How did that happen? Did she transform into a tanar'ri, was she a tanar'ri to begin with and Corellon had for some reason still thought it was a good reason to marry her, or did Corellon straight-up kill her after she tried to assassinate him and she became a tanar'ri the normal way and then worked her way back up from the very bottom?

*eg. Vhaeraun
**eg. Iuz
***eg Vecna, Zagyg, Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul, Imhotep, etc.

[Tzardok]

(or existing deity-like beings**)**eg. Iuz

Arguably Iuz falls in the last category, as he wasn't born a god, but ascended.

A perhaps more telling example however is that of Lolth. She's the goddess of Drow, but predates drow as a group. Prior to that she was presumably just the goddess of spiders.

From what we've seen, Lolth's association with spiders came after her fall. We don't have information of what her portfolio was before (except in the Forgotten Realms, as she was a patron of a dark skinned elf subrace that later became the drow), but in Afrocanon she was the elvish goddess of destiny.

In any case, what's the deal witn Lolth in this regard? I recall hearing in a couple places that she spent time as a specifically tanar'ri archdemon between her fall and her reascension back to godhood. How did that happen? Did she transform into a tanar'ri, was she a tanar'ri to begin with and Corellon had for some reason still thought it was a good reason to marry her, or did Corellon straight-up kill her after she tried to assassinate him and she became a tanar'ri the normal way and then worked her way back up from the very bottom?

I'm not quite sure, but we can say for sure that she wasn't a tana'ri before her fall. Corellon stripped her of her divinity and booted her into the Abyss, where she became a unique spider demon (maybe as a reflection of her weaving a plot). No idea why exactly a tana'ri, but maybe it fit best as gods are made from belief and souls, and exemplars are made from souls, so...

What I wonder the most about is: Vhaeraun (and Eilistrae, but voluntary) was given the boot together with his mother for conspiring with her. Why exactly wasn't he stripped of his divinity? Had Corellon just time to cool down before dealing with his wayward son, or what?

[Caelestion]

Can a god really strip another god of their divinity? If so, it clearly didn't take, as she's unquestionably still a deity now.

[Tzardok]

Can a god really strip another god of their divinity? If so, it clearly didn't take, as she's unquestionably still a deity now.

Evidently. It propably requires either having authority over the other god (as Corellon had as pantheon head) or having the other god at your mercy, like what happened with Desayus. When Desayus tried to become god of unborn souls, all the other gods turned on him, stripped him of his divinity and chained him up somewhere in Agathion, where he slowly and agonizingly fades over the millenia.

Lolth earned her divinity back by corrupting the elves that would become the drow and using their worship to ascend again.

[Thurbane]

The upcoming Thor movie got me thinking: are there many specific entities that have a goal of slaying deities?

I'm pretty sure one or more the Elder Evils do; and I think there was a weird, three-eyed Godzilla type being from 1E Deities & Demigods?

So, is there a really short list of deicide-driven beings in D&D, or is it so large as to be impossible to compile?

[Tzardok]

Pandorym is the god slayer from Elder Evils. The three eyed guy is Ma Yuan, he killed a few demigods associated with the Chinese pantheon and is now imprisoned in the darkwells. The kir-lanan are a mortal, but soulless race from Faerûn that blames the gods for them not having an afterlife and want to kill them, but the best they can do is go for the worshippers. Anybody else... hmmm...

There was Tenebrous, with the Last Word, in the salon. Does that count? Propably not. Godslaying was the method, not the goal here.

I think there was a vestige of another god slayer somewhere, but I can't remember who.

Otherwise... uhm.. Apep?

[Eldan]

There's a former demon lord now vestige called Ansitif the Befouler (Dragon magazine, I think?). He is noted for hating the very concept of divinity and directing all his followers to hunt down and destroy clerics, temples,etc. Gives resistance to divine magic, requires you to destroy any holy symbols you find.

Didn't slay any gods, but would surely have tried if he had the power.

[Fable Wright]

...how long do you expect the dretch to be exposed to said wizard?

In this scenario, I'm supposing a cruel Elven archwizard who keeps it around to use it as test fodder for a variety of debilitating spells to ensure that they work appropriately on creatures of the Abyss and to use it as a sideshow attraction to demonstrate said spells, for ~500 years or so to track long-term effects on immortals.

Also, while dretches are pretty stupid, they still recognize mortals to be inherently inferior to themselves (whether or not that's true).

Interesting. Do they view powerful respawning undead, such as liches or vampires, as inherently inferior as well due to their unchanging nature? Or would one with overwhelming power and both ageless and resurrective immortality kin to their own put them on a similar level? We know that lichfiends exist, so there's presumably some degree of recognition...

[Bohandas]

The upcoming Thor movie got me thinking: are there many specific entities that have a goal of slaying deities?

I'm pretty sure one or more the Elder Evils do; and I think there was a weird, three-eyed Godzilla type being from 1E Deities & Demigods?

So, is there a really short list of deicide-driven beings in D&D, or is it so large as to be impossible to compile?

Possibly Tharizdun.

Also any number of people during the Time of Troubles when IIRC people could claim a slain god's power

EDIT:
Also Caira Xasten, the crazy mass murderer from page 20 of Elder Evils

[afroakuma]

Yes, I would absolutely love to hear this.

Alrighty, well then. May as well do them all.

Spoiler: Afrocanon

Show

Dwarves
Creator Moradin
Homeworld Dormark (Grayhome)
Home Sphere Drukarspace

The home of the dwarves, Dormark fell prior to the First Unhuman War, a consequence of Moradin dividing his attentions between the expanding dwarven worlds of other spheres and the incursion of orcs and goblins into Drukarspace. Though some sages believe that the fall of Dormark precipitated the War, in truth it fell not due to military conquest but rather through the intervention of Laduguer, who believed that the ongoing state of conflict on the dwarves' own homeworld was a sign of Moradin's weakness and who unleashed a fell magic to purge the world of the invaders. The results cast many dwarven cities into the crumbling hell of Thuldanin and resulted in the exile of most dwarves from their homeworld (as well as Laduguer from the pantheon) when the dire conditions of the world in the wake of the terrible magic transformed it into the Grayhome, a barren waste.

Elves
Creator Corellon Larethian
Homeworld Seldar
Home Sphere Seldarspace

The ancient homeworld of the elves, Seldar was annihilated untold eons ago, causing the First Unhuman War. A product of no fewer than three confrontations between Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian, the doom of Seldar is of such terrible infamy that it has been all but erased from the annals of history at the hands of the elves themselves, who have taken vast pains to cover up the vicious and bloody toll that Gruumsh exacted from them in payback for his lost eye. The sphere itself is virtually unknown, which is unsurprising as it bears no resemblance to what it once was; even the once bright and proud sun is now a tortured and tainted thing, the portal at its heart twisted from its moorings to open on a place of nightmare. It now bears a new and terrible name, a place so forsaken that astrogators barely credit its existence outside of being some kind of horror story to tell to young children. It has become known by the name for the unearthly and terrible flame at its heart.

Gnomes
Creator Arumdina
Homeworld Colurranur
Home Sphere The Broken Sphere

One of the original races of the 18 worlds of the first crystal sphere, the gnomes were peerless masters of their arcane practice, and through their efforts the magical ship known as the Spelljammer awakened. The destruction of the first sphere, still the only known crystal sphere to ever suffer damage in any fashion, annihilated the gnome homeworld.

Halflings
Creator Yondalla
Homeworld Athas
Home Sphere The Crimson Sphere

The halflings have a curious history, as those who are encountered on the many worlds of the multiverse are known for their cheerful attitudes and the faith they place in Yondalla and her children. Those who remained on their homeworld took from her bounty and gathered unto themselves the power to shape life, a gift that she should never have granted. With this knowledge and power, the original life-shapers considered themselves her peers and turned away from her, prompting their own goddess to sorrowfully depart from the sphere with those who wanted to leave it behind, never to return. The fate of Athas is well-known, and the magic unleashed by the ancient life-shapers and their successors has so tainted the sphere that no god will bother trying to extend their reach to Athas again.

Humans
Creator None
Homeworld None
Home Sphere None

Uniquely among the major races, humans were not originally created by any patron deity; they are the byproduct of mating between the reigar and the lakshu. Blessed with the imagination and free spirits of the former and the passion and ardor of the latter, humans became the standard template for deities looking to populate their worlds with potential faithful - their essences tied to no deity, and their minds open to providing exactly the kind of faith that powers desire most.

Orcs
Creator Gruumsh
Homeworld See below
Home Sphere See below

Where exactly the orcs originated is not known for certain, but it is widely understood that Gruumsh is ancient. Just how ancient is something of a debate, though one theory posits that he dates from the time of the first sphere; that his creations were the ruthless conquerors whose depredations provoked the birth of the Spelljammer itself; and that after the total destruction of that sphere, Gruumsh chased any vestiges of the life magic that created the incredible living ship across the whole of the Prime Material, seeking to seize it and make use of it to forge a world for his orcs. According to this theory, one of these remnants of the ancient magic was drawn to the fey deities, where it was collected by a proto-deity looking to split off from the fey and forge its own path and people. Gruumsh came upon this godling and demanded that the power he desired be yielded unto him, but was denied, for the godling had fused the life magic into his own essence and used it to create a people of his own. The godling would not share any of this magic, for he found the orcs detestable and was unwilling to risk that his children might become like them.

It is suggested that Gruumsh went to war against this godling, and came away without an eye; that this wound so enraged him that Gruumsh forgot entirely about the original reasons for the conflict between them, and spent millennia plotting vengeance. He turned the consort of the godling against him, precipitating a terrible treachery, and when even this attempt was insufficient, the orc god struck against the homeworld of his rival's children with such fury and wanton cruelty that those people scattered to the stars in fear of losing their home. This fear proved justified when the shamans of Gruumsh worked a magic of nightmare and profound evil, bringing forth the naked and unbridled fury of the One-Eyed God in the form of a tainted sun, transforming the lifegiving elemental flames into an atrocity of screaming green light.

How's that?

Additionally, they can also come into being as progeny of existing deities* (or existing deity-like beings**) or ascend to godhood from mortality***

Accurate.

A perhaps more telling example however is that of Lolth. She's the goddess of Drow, but predates drow as a group. Prior to that she was presumably just the goddess of spiders.

Elven goddess of fate and destiny, actually.

Did you mean demodand (or both demodands and tanar'ri), the question was about evolving into demodands

Oh hey, that's where I left that sleep deprivation!

But yes, I did mean that.

In any case, what's the deal witn Lolth in this regard? I recall hearing in a couple places that she spent time as a specifically tanar'ri archdemon between her fall and her reascension back to godhood. How did that happen? Did she transform into a tanar'ri, was she a tanar'ri to begin with and Corellon had for some reason still thought it was a good reason to marry her, or did Corellon straight-up kill her after she tried to assassinate him and she became a tanar'ri the normal way and then worked her way back up from the very bottom?

Didn't kill her, no; she was an elven goddess, grew corrupt and tried to overthrow him, and he ejected her from the pantheon and cast her down, stripping almost all of her divinity in the process and reducing her to a demonic being - a demon lord, who mustered her strength and regained her full divinity.

From what we've seen, Lolth's association with spiders came after her fall.

Nah, she always had that, but in the past it was pretty benign - only after her fall did she start making driders and other spidery abominations.

What I wonder the most about is: Vhaeraun (and Eilistrae, but voluntary) was given the boot together with his mother for conspiring with her. Why exactly wasn't he stripped of his divinity? Had Corellon just time to cool down before dealing with his wayward son, or what?[/QUOTE]

Can a god really strip another god of their divinity? If so, it clearly didn't take, as she's unquestionably still a deity now.

I mean, he didn't just push a button. He went to war and they fought and he prevailed, and the damage he inflicted was enough that he could use his station as pantheon head and chief racial deity to expel her and her portfolio. In short, he hit her so hard she stopped being a goddess for a while. It was not fun and not something any god would do lightly - the only reason he did it at all was because she would not stop coming for him until either he was dead or she was denied the further ability to do so.

The upcoming Thor movie got me thinking: are there many specific entities that have a goal of slaying deities?

Not a ton, but there are a few, Sertrous wants to unravel the concept of belief in the divine, the Athar would love to get people to stop worshipping gods at all, Ma Yuan is a creature that threatens deities, Pandorym was tasked with eating them...

In this scenario, I'm supposing a cruel Elven archwizard who keeps it around to use it as test fodder for a variety of debilitating spells to ensure that they work appropriately on creatures of the Abyss and to use it as a sideshow attraction to demonstrate said spells, for ~500 years or so to track long-term effects on immortals.

Still fairly doubtful.

Interesting. Do they view powerful respawning undead, such as liches or vampires, as inherently inferior as well due to their unchanging nature?

They view undead as being inferior because they think everything that isn't them is inferior.

[Bohandas]

bringing forth the naked and unbridled fury of the One-Eyed God in the form of a tainted sun, transforming the lifegiving elemental flames into an atrocity of screaming green light.

Is this a reftence to Homestuck and/or Exalted?

[Tzardok]

Is this a reftence to Homestuck and/or Exalted?

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Witchlight.

[afroakuma]

Is this a reftence to Homestuck and/or Exalted?

Definitely not.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Witchlight.

I'm pretty sure he is too.

[Tzardok]

I thought about how this origin for Witchlight could imply that the Misty Isle could be in that sphere, but then I looked the Isle up and saw that it is solely a Greyhawk location. Mah, happens.

By the way, the elves are kinda lacking in imagination. Their new homesphere is called Seldarspace too.

We've already covered the effects the fall of elven destiny had on the race as a whole. I'm wondering now what could've happened if someone else had fallen. Hanali's fall would have propably twisted the elves into ugly shapes. Aerdrie's fall would have curtailed their fertility. But what would've been the effect of Sehanine going the demon route?
Also, any idea what Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's portfolio/role in the pantheon used to be before their exile?

Finally, the inter-stellar empire that produced the vestige Dantalion. Could you maybe conjecture on where it would fit into Spelljammer and its timeline?

[Bohandas]

Doesn't the Misty Isle move around?

[Thealtruistorc]

How's that?

This was very helpful and inspiring for my own work. Of course, it invites a few new question.

1. Are all humans in the Crystal Spheres descended from the Reigar? They weren't discussed in any of the Forgotten Realms books, which seemed to imply that humanity evolved naturally on Faerun.

2. How does Yondalla abandoning the halflings of Athas work? Surely she could still draw power from the Pyreen given that Halflings are part of her portfolio, or did she worry about being altered or corrupted by their faith? How were the Pyreen altered by lack of a god?

[afroakuma]

I thought about how this origin for Witchtlight could imply that the Misty Isle could be in that sphere, but then I looked the Isle up and saw that it is solely a Greyhawk location. Mah, happens.

I mean, it definitely wouldn't still be in that sphere.

By the way, the elves are kinda lacking in imagination. Their new homesphere is called Seldarspace too.

Mm. Don't much care for that, but it is what it is, and it aligns with the overall principle that the elves don't want to admit their homeworld is destroyed.

But what would've been the effect of Sehanine going the demon route?

Madunno, probably sever the ties between the moon and elf magic, make them less imaginative, unwilling to wander, more fearful of the grave...

Also, any idea what Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's portfolio/role in the pantheon used to be before their exile?

Eilistraee's would have been largely similar to what it is now; she was a demigoddess of freedom, passion, swordplay, and dance. Vhaeraun was likely a territorial combat god who was tasked with opposing orcs, goblins, and other foes of the elves through whatever methods possible, including sabotage and thievery.

Finally, the inter-stellar empire that produced the vestige Danthalion. Could you maybe conjecture on where it would fit into Spelljammer and its timeline?

Not presently, we'd have to put a pin in that one for now.

1. Are all humans in the Crystal Spheres descended from the Reigar? They weren't discussed in any of the Forgotten Realms books, which seemed to imply that humanity evolved naturally on Faerun.

The original humans were; the template for humanity was observed and copied wholecloth by countless new gods wanting to populate worlds with a suitable people to give them worship. That includes the gods of Toril.

2. How does Yondalla abandoning the halflings of Athas work?

They rejected her, not the other way around. They considered her unnecessary given their vast powers, and she walked away from the world in sorrow that her generosity had produced such arrogance.

Surely she could still draw power from the Pyreen given that Halflings are part of her portfolio

No, she couldn't; the pyreen don't worship her. Their predecessors didn't worship her. It's been a very long time since the original rhulisti turned their backs on their own gods, long enough that those who ended the Blue Age barely remembered they had ever had any.

How were the Pyreen altered by lack of a god?

They weren't, really. Not in any physical sense. Spiritually it certainly increased the overall arrogance that led to them messing up over and over again.

[unseenmage]

I was musing about shadowplane connection to the modern world over in this thread and had some cosmological wondering.

Say an evil aligned race from the shadow plane wanders into a universe that not only doesn't have alignments, it doesnt have deities or an afterlife either. No magic even.

Is that member of that race still evil? Is their racial evil contained in them? In their culture?
Or is it more of a universal compulsion. The creature is from a race that it's home universe says is evil, so it does evil.
Could it be a combination of the two where they're born evil but eventually adopt cultural evil as their own at some moral crossroads or another?

I'm wondering how likely little evil shadow plane folk might be to find the luxuries of modern day earth and just kinda get good and drunk on convenience and chill out.

Or are they doomed to stealing lost children and pets so as to commit unspeakable rituals or whatever evil suits their fancy regardless of how quickly that gets them found and exterminated.