afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Silly Name]

Say an evil aligned race from the shadow plane wanders into a universe that not only doesn't have alignments, it doesnt have deities or an afterlife either. No magic even.

Is that member of that race still evil? Is their racial evil contained in them? In their culture?

Why a certain creature is Evil depends on the exact nature of the creature - a fiend is Evil because it's made of Evil. Many drows are Evil because their culture is and they're a product of said culture, but they're not innately Evil in the same way the fiend is.

I'm wondering how likely little evil shadow plane folk might be to find the luxuries of modern day earth and just kinda get good and drunk on convenience and chill out.

This would entirely depend on the psychology of the creatures, both in general and for individuals. I see no reason for the hypothetical shift to a world without alignments, deities and afterlives to radically alter the way those creatures think and act - except, perhaps, as a way for existential horror to creep in their psyche as they struggle to adapt to a universe so radically different from the one they know.

Or are they doomed to stealing lost children and pets so as to commit unspeakable rituals or whatever evil suits their fancy regardless of how quickly that gets them found and exterminated.

Again, if we assume those creatures are prone to such acts already, and back on their homeworld they do indeed indulge those urges... why would they stop just because they find themselves in a world that operates under different rules?

[Thealtruistorc]

The original humans were; the template for humanity was observed and copied wholecloth by countless new gods wanting to populate worlds with a suitable people to give them worship. That includes the gods of Toril.

Interesting. Are there any races which weren't the product of divine creation or production by another race? Mortal beings which formed their own gods later rather than being created by some kind of patron?

[Tzardok]

Do Paladin variants of different alignments make sense in Ravenloft?

[enderlord99]

Interesting. Are there any races which weren't the product of divine creation or production by another race? Mortal beings which formed their own gods later rather than being created by some kind of patron?

Yes: Aboleths.

[Tzardok]

Aboleths are kinda borderline. They are the product of the Blood Queen who's close enough to being a deity to count, and they aren't really mortal, on account of not dying of old age.

[Caelestion]

The Sidhelien of the Birthright setting are ageless Elves who supposedly formed out of the elements and explicitly shun the teachings of the gods. No creator deity is ever mentioned for them.

[Thurbane]

Speaking of creation myths etc. what's the canon for Mongrelfolk?

I believe in 2E they may have an official deity, but also in 1E/2E I think there was a source (maybe Dragon mag) that had them as the result of a wizard experimenting on various humanoids?

[afroakuma]

Interesting. Are there any races which weren't the product of divine creation or production by another race?

Nothing comes to mind. Convergent evolution isn't much of an option in a cosmology where souls are an explicit thingamabob and gods want worship. If you want things not beholden to a god, plenty of those; if you're asking about things evolving all on their own without any outside intelligent agency, there are certainly some weird creatures that have done so but they don't worship any gods; most lack the capacity in its entirety.

Then we get to creatures of alien or no known origin, like the keepers or the grell; but they don't worship deities.

Anyway, assuming you're referring to evolution, I'm not aware off the cuff of any noteworthy D&D race that can be said to have evolved without outside interference and started believing in gods of their own accord. If you're allowing for some alternative, I'd love to know what that might be.

The Sidhelien of the Birthright setting are ageless Elves who supposedly formed out of the elements and explicitly shun the teachings of the gods. No creator deity is ever mentioned for them.

They're definitely a distinctive elven subrace, but also they're elves. Mixed with a sprinkling of something fey - to the point that they're honestly closer to the 4E/5E "eladrin" than normal elves. In any event, they're not local.

[Caelestion]

You don't think that they're native to Aebrynis?

[Tzardok]

Blame the sibriexes, they sculpted tanar'ri into useful forms. Even with that in mind, it's worth noting that demons are a quite chaotic bunch - it's not for nothing that we used to use generic "types" to describe approximate stature and power level rather than species names. As for why it still holds, unlike the slaad who are magically forced into progressing in a certain way, for demons it's got more to do with the endless cycle of bullying - you see the thing that torments you and say "I want to be that" and self-actualize your way up the chain.

Demons certainly deserve more mechanical support for their chaotic natures; I'll get around to homebrewing it eventually. Gotta love all the material I create for a dead system

You know, this (together with the Spawning Stone) implies that the Eladrin's forms are also externally imposed. I wonder how that happened. Maybe they just decided by themselves to be defined, for the sake of better... yeah, I got nothing.

[afroakuma]

Speaking of creation myths etc. what's the canon for Mongrelfolk?

I believe in 2E they may have an official deity, but also in 1E/2E I think there was a source (maybe Dragon mag) that had them as the result of a wizard experimenting on various humanoids?

Dragon Magazine absolutely did do that, because why not muddy the waters on them. It's certainly plausible that some strains of mongrelfolk arose this way; merlanes are nothing if not constantly in pursuit of insane experiments, after all. However, the vast majority of them are simply the result of a lot of crossbreeding concentrating particular traits over others. Meriadar did not make them, but conversely it's hard to conclusively state whether Meriadar predated them and adopted them, or whether he arose due to their beliefs. Unless you follow afro-canon in which case Meriadar definitely came first and adopted them.

You don't think that they're native to Aebrynis?

Ehh, yes and no. "Emerging from the elements" is pretty darn silly as a creation myth. The truth about the Sidhelien is they're not really elves in any traditional sense; they're humanoid-ized fey created when the Shadow World split off from Aebrynis proper. As a result, the race itself is "native" to Aebrynis, but their ancestors were fey of the Seelie and Unseelie Courts.

You know, this (together with the Spawning Stone) implies that the Eladrin's forms are also externally imposed. I wonder how that happened. Maybe they just decided by themselves to be defined, for the sake of better... yeah, I got nothing.

Yes, ish. The true form of any given eladrin is its nonhumanoid form; they very much enjoy taking on and using their humanoid forms (shiere to the point that they are very bad at using their natural form and averse to transforming into it) but a ghaele is actually a sphere of rainbow colors, a bralani is actually a sentient whirlwind, and so on. In my sketched-out plans to draw up the predecessors of the eladrins, the eodath possessed "forms of inspiration" cognate to an obyrith's form of madness.

[Tzardok]

Ooh, eodath. Nice to have a name for them. Does that mean something or did you just invent a nice sounding word?

Also, I think you may have overlooked one of my questions. I'll repost it:

Do the Paladin variants of different alignments make sense in Ravenloft?

[Alea]

True 10th-level (and higher) spells were banned in the Forgotten Realms after Karsus’s Folly. Epic spells “are treated as” 10th-level, and you can metamagic spells to 10th-level and beyond with Improved Spell Capacity (and with Improved Heighten Spell, they could count in all ways as 10th-level or higher), but they aren’t the same as the older spells of the Netherese. (Secrets of the Magister and Lost Empires of Faerûn disagree on how thorough Mystra’s ban was, likely because they ret-conned matters to facilitate the transition to 3e in the absence of Die, Vecna, Die! in their silly World Tree cosmology.)

So my question: did such 10th-level or higher spells ever exist anywhere else? That is, did the events of Die, Vecna, Die! actually prevent anyone from casting 10th-level or higher spells, or did Mystra’s ban already nix that option for everyone who’d previously had it, because it had only been a thing in Realmspace to begin with?

[Thealtruistorc]

What's the dividing line between an Elder Evil and a powerful evil deity? Why does Tharizdun count as a deity while similar entities like Atropus and Dendar fall in the Elder Evil camp? Is the difference in their origins? Their perceptions? Their followings?

[enderlord99]

True 10th-level (and higher) spells were banned in the Forgotten Realms after Karsus’s Folly. Epic spells “are treated as” 10th-level, and you can metamagic spells to 10th-level and beyond with Improved Spell Capacity (and with Improved Heighten Spell, they could count in all ways as 10th-level or higher), but they aren’t the same as the older spells of the Netherese. (Secrets of the Magister and Lost Empires of Faerûn disagree on how thorough Mystra’s ban was, likely because they ret-conned matters to facilitate the transition to 3e in the absence of Die, Vecna, Die! in their silly World Tree cosmology.)

So my question: did such 10th-level or higher spells ever exist anywhere else? That is, did the events of Die, Vecna, Die! actually prevent anyone from casting 10th-level or higher spells, or did Mystra’s ban already nix that option for everyone who’d previously had it, because it had only been a thing in Realmspace to begin with?

I think there are some in old Spelljammer products, like one that forces a Crystal Sphere to open a portal-thingy and another that prevents it.

[Tzardok]

What's the dividing line between an Elder Evil and a powerful evil deity? Why does Tharizdun count as a deity while similar entities like Atropus and Dendar fall in the Elder Evil camp? Is the difference in their origins? Their perceptions? Their followings?

Afro did talk about that in an earlier thread, and it essentially boils down to: DM's decision. Elder Evil (in the sense of the eponymous sourcebook) simply means a campaign driving super threat whose emergence will spell doom for the world. They don't have anything else in common. So, there is literally nothing that prevents you from statting for example Tharizdun as an Elder Evil, with a sign and aall that other stuff (in the 5th thread, Afro helped a guy stat the demon lord Abraxas as an Elder Evil).

By the way, Dendar isn't an Elder Evil (unless you statt her as one), but an elder evil, i.e. a large ominous thing lurking around in background lore.

[afroakuma]

Ooh, eodath. Nice to have a name for them. Does that mean something or did you just invent a nice sounding word?

Just made up a word.

Also, I think you may have overlooked one of my questions. I'll repost it:

Do the Paladin variants of different alignments make sense in Ravenloft?

Freedom, yes. Tyranny and Slaughter, definitely not for PCs, since either one is a great way to get the Dark Powers looking at you. For villains, certainly.

So my question: did such 10th-level or higher spells ever exist anywhere else?

"True dweomers" are noted to be "effectively 10th level" and also addressed directly as "10th level" in a few places. Beyond that, 10th level spells are found on one other known setting besides the Forgotten Realms - Dark Sun, where they were majestically terrifying spells used by defilers to do really horrible awful things, up to and including becoming a dragon (the Athas variety, not a conventional dragon).

What's the dividing line between an Elder Evil and a powerful evil deity? Why does Tharizdun count as a deity while similar entities like Atropus and Dendar fall in the Elder Evil camp? Is the difference in their origins? Their perceptions? Their followings?

I mean, it's funny you pick Tharizdun, because his avatar Shothragot is in fact an Elder Evil and functions the same way they do.

Essentially, though, an Elder Evil isn't necessarily not an evil deity - the major things that identify an Elder Evil are these:

• Presence asserted on the Material Plane
• Entrenched presence on said plane
• Restrained in some way from directly acting on the Material Plane despite its presence there
• Any exposure to the Elder Evil's presence causes disruptions to the entire world on which its presence is being felt, known as its sign
• All Elder Evils possess some capability to veil themselves from divine detection, a property known as anathematic secrecy

So looking at the ones that are known to exist, Atropus is physically remote, Father Llymic is trapped in magical ice, the Hulks of Zoretha are dormant and require energy to awaken, the Leviathan is slumbering, Pandorym is trapped in crystal and severed from its body, Ragnorra's connection to the Material Plane is being created by her cultists through feeding her a "trail" of living materials to draw her toward the target world, Sertrous bound his essence to the Material Plane and is actually attempting to rebuild himself in the Abyss via his pocket demiplane layer, Kyuss got himself stuck in an obelisk, and Zargon is a cranky mud puddle.

Point is, evil gods and demon lords and the like can also operate as Elder Evils, but it requires that they make a serious commitment to embodying their power on the Prime, more than just dispatching an aspect or a temporary avatar. If you happen to have a particular evil widget you'd like me to describe as an Elder Evil, I'd be happy to.

I think there are some in old Spelljammer products, like one that forces a Crystal Sphere to open a portal-thingy and another that prevents it.

Oddly that was an FR product.

[Bohandas]

What's the dividing line between an Elder Evil and a powerful evil deity? Why does Tharizdun count as a deity while similar entities like Atropus and Dendar fall in the Elder Evil camp? Is the difference in their origins? Their perceptions? Their followings?

I don't think the two preclude each other. Kyuss is both

[Thealtruistorc]

]
Essentially, though, an Elder Evil isn't necessarily not an evil deity - the major things that identify an Elder Evil are these:

• Presence asserted on the Material Plane
• Entrenched presence on said plane
• Restrained in some way from directly acting on the Material Plane despite its presence there
• Any exposure to the Elder Evil's presence causes disruptions to the entire world on which its presence is being felt, known as its sign
• All Elder Evils possess some capability to veil themselves from divine detection, a property known as anathematic secrecy

So looking at the ones that are known to exist, Atropus is physically remote, Father Llymic is trapped in magical ice, the Hulks of Zoretha are dormant and require energy to awaken, the Leviathan is slumbering, Pandorym is trapped in crystal and severed from its body, Ragnorra's connection to the Material Plane is being created by her cultists through feeding her a "trail" of living materials to draw her toward the target world, Sertrous bound his essence to the Material Plane and is actually attempting to rebuild himself in the Abyss via his pocket demiplane layer, Kyuss got himself stuck in an obelisk, and Zargon is a cranky mud puddle.

Point is, evil gods and demon lords and the like can also operate as Elder Evils, but it requires that they make a serious commitment to embodying their power on the Prime, more than just dispatching an aspect or a temporary avatar. If you happen to have a particular evil widget you'd like me to describe as an Elder Evil, I'd be happy to.

Actually, there is one that I've wondered about writing up as an Elder Evil: The god-slaying incarnation of Raistlin Majere which is discussed in Legends of the Twins. Given that his presence displays signs on the material plane (magic storms, constellations changing, magic breaking down), I think he would qualify as an Elder Evil.

Not sure how he would acquire anathematic secrecy (or how any creature does, for that matter), but I'm sure he could find a way.

[Thurbane]

Actually, there is one that I've wondered about writing up as an Elder Evil: The god-slaying incarnation of Raistlin Majere which is discussed in Legends of the Twins. Given that his presence displays signs on the material plane (magic storms, constellations changing, magic breaking down), I think he would qualify as an Elder Evil.

Not sure how he would acquire anathematic secrecy (or how any creature does, for that matter), but I'm sure he could find a way.

I think that would make a great basis for a new Elder Evil!

[afroakuma]

Actually, there is one that I've wondered about writing up as an Elder Evil: The god-slaying incarnation of Raistlin Majere which is discussed in Legends of the Twins. Given that his presence displays signs on the material plane (magic storms, constellations changing, magic breaking down), I think he would qualify as an Elder Evil.

I'd dispute that given that those "signs" are more consequence of his actions than his presence (stars go out as he murders gods, magic is disrupted by the ridiculous spells he's casting, etc.)

Not sure how he would acquire anathematic secrecy (or how any creature does, for that matter), but I'm sure he could find a way.

I mean, in the case of that alternate future Raistlin, pretty sure he just killed gods until there were none left to know about him.

I think that would make a great basis for a new Elder Evil!

I'd dispute this too; while Raistlin is a favorite of mine, the whole point of his alternate future self is that he runs out of goals and has nothing left to him in any way. He also fails one of the essential qualifications in that he's not restrained, and hence is not going to "approach" anything. Finally, of course, there's the question of what he'd even be coming forth to terrorize, or for that matter how any mortal could stop him given that he decked the gods.

[Thurbane]

Fair enough. Been a looooong time since I read the latter books...

[redking]

I'd dispute this too; while Raistlin is a favorite of mine, the whole point of his alternate future self is that he runs out of goals and has nothing left to him in any way.

How about this version of Raistlin being a vestige? He would seem to qualify for it. This version of Raistlin existed until a time travelling kender changed the timeline. Care to try your hand at the vestige Raistlin?

[afroakuma]

How about this version of Raistlin being a vestige? He would seem to qualify for it. This version of Raistlin existed until a time travelling kender changed the timeline. Care to try your hand at the vestige Raistlin?

I don't see why that would be a thing; among other things, the dead future Raistlin has zero reason to respond to binders; further, he's from an alternate timeline that never came to pass, so he doesn't belong in any kind of interaction with our multiverse.

Finally, of course, I made an offer to do up an Elder Evil, not a vestige. If you want a Dragonlance-themed vestige, I've got you covered.

[Tzardok]

I know a great evil that makes sense as an Elder Evil: 4th Edition.

[Thurbane]

Speaking of vesiges, I once (with some help from the people at the WotC D&D forums) homebrewed a vestige version of Sakatha (the BBEG from Tomb of the Lizard King). Lost all the info in the forum purge though. The worst part is someone cooked up some awesome fluff of the manifestation, which was far more creative than anything I could come up with.

Actually, scratch that, I think I reposted the fluff on the Enworld forum, so it's not lost forever.

Spoiler

Show

In the seal in front of you, the ground begins to melt and bubble, like something is hiding beneath a muddy puddle. From this mess, a powerfully built lizardman slowly rises, head bowed, as if being pushed up...and indeed he is. As his feet are pressed upward, you see that Sakatha is standing atop a pile of skulls and bones of various humanoids. The creature slowly opens his eyes, revealing that he has nothing but black blood leaking down, and the left side of his face is skeletal, the flesh torn off. When Sakatha first speaks, the skulls at his feet cackle until Sakatha commands them to silence.

NIfft (same Nifft as these forums?) also helped with the vestige abilities. I think this was help to recreate something the WotC forum purge destroyed.

Spoiler

Show

Jaws of the Vampire -- You gain a bite attack (1d4/1d6 for small/medium) as a primary or secondary natural attack; if you already have a bite attack, naturally or otherwise, you may instead choose to increase the damage of your other bite attack by two size categories. If your EBL is at least 11, your bite is considered Silver. If your EBL is at least 15, your bite is considered Silver and Lawful. You do not gain this benefit if you do not show Sakatha's sign.

- - -

Vampires and Lizardfolk both have tough skin. Let's give some Natural Armor and DR.

Scaly Ward -- You gain a Natural Armor bonus equal to one-half your Constitution bonus (rounded down), and DR/silver equal to one-half your Charisma bonus (rounded down).

- - -

Vampires are known for their gaseous form; Lizardfolk are known living in misty swamps. Hmm. Something with mist?

Alternately, your command scaly critters ability looks good. Something like...

Scaly King's Command -- Once every five rounds, you may use an effect similar to command on any reptile (if the reptile does not understand any language, then this ability is not [Language-Dependant]).

- - -

And something for the King...

Aura of Majesty -- You may project an aura out to 30 ft., which affects yourself and all allies. You may project one aura at a time. Switching auras is a Swift action. You can not project an aura if you do not show Sakatha's sign. Your available auras depend on your EBL:

• (EBL any) -- Aura of Sakatha's Victory: +2 melee damage against mammals.
• (EBL 5+) -- Aura of Sakatha's Domain: +8 to Swim checks.
• (EBL 9+) -- Aura of Sakatha's Resolve: +2 to Will saves.
• (EBL 13+) -- Aura of Sakatha's Immunity: energy resistance 10 vs. cold and electricity.

---

...sorry for the side track, but I love re-imagining characters from earlier editions as vestiges or elder evils.

I'll throw in a question to get back on track: are there any official vestiges that have defined links to any official elder evils?

[afroakuma]

I'll throw in a question to get back on track: are there any official vestiges that have defined links to any official elder evils?

Considering who the canonical Elder Evils are...

• Atropus was made up wholecloth and has no ties to any known vestige.
• Father Llymic is from the Far Realm, which very very very thinly ties him to Otiax insofar as Otiax is theorized to have something to do with the Far Realm, but that's one hell of a granfalloon.
• The Hulks of Zoretha were made up wholecloth and have no ties to any known vestige.
• The Leviathan is a sleeping primordial being and has no ties to any known vestige.
• Pandorym wasn't around long enough to get involved with anything that might have become a vestige, and anything it gets its "hands" on wouldn't have enough of itself left to create a vestige.
• Ragnorra was made up wholecloth and has no ties to any known vestige.
• Sertrous is an obyrith and never interacted with anything that might have become a vestige.
• Shothragot has ties to Tharizdun, but Tharizdun has no known ties to any vestige.
• Kyuss has no ties to any known vestige.
• Zargon is a cranky mud puddle.

[enderlord99]

• Zargon is a cranky mud puddle.

...and not an Ancient Baatorian, as has been long-established in this thread.

[Tzardok]

Celestial are able to be channeled. Fiends can develop the ability to possess mortals. Do the neutral exemplars have any comparable capabilities?

[Fable Wright]

You have, in the past, implied that the Baatezu push lies that they seized Baator from the ancient Baatorians, or that they pretend to live in a realm that was empty when they got there.

You have not, to my knowledge, shared your thoughts on the true history of the Baatorian genocide.

Given the fact that Nupperibos continue to spawn and that Asmodeus chooses to fight the Blood War inside of Baator when possible (though this might be a 5eism), instead of in an external plane, is it that the Baatezu are in fact prisoners of their plane? An Angelic strike force that came to fight against the Baatorians, were trapped, and corrupted until they fell from grace?

If so, how could they have seized the plane despite being a finite number against an infinite army? Seizing the means of soul production only goes so far given the requirement to hold it.
If not, what is the story of how the Baatezu seized hell from the Baatorians?