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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Demogorgon isn't a deity. He is a demon lord.
    Monster Mythology disagreeing with you there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Doresain, on the other hand, is a deity, at least since 3.5 (I know a write up of him in 3.0 that isn't a god).
    Doresain was a boss in the "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure (Dungeon #70)
    It's the ultimate proof he wasn't a deity back then: in the 2E, even the weakest deity in the game could wipe the floor with a party of arbitrary high level and numbers

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Among the qualities every deity has in Planescape are the ability to grant spells to worshippers
    As you mentioned below, "doesn't ≠ couldn't"
    But let me point also: people who worship Lady on the Planes getting their spells just fine...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    having a portfolio (an aspect of reality they have power over that is of importance for their Material Plane worshippers)
    Just because we unaware of her portfolio, it doesn't mean she don't have one

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    and the fact that they starve and die when they aren't worshipped.
    This part always was inconsistent:
    Who the heck worships Elemental deities? Yet they're not just don't starving, but, actually, among the strongest...
    Deities such as Gorellik and Ramenos are practically not worshiped at all. While neither of them are "fine", they're still not "starved to death" yet...
    Orcus managed to be a deity with just one worshiper (Quah-Nomag)!
    Also, if lack of worshipers makes deities weaker, then why Tharizdun is still the strongest god ever? And why Doresain isn't Overgod yet - with his untold billions of worshipers?
    Let alone the Mythos deities...

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Doresain was a boss in the "Kingdom of the Ghouls" adventure (Dungeon #70)
    It's the ultimate proof he wasn't a deity back then: in the 2E, even the weakest deity in the game could wipe the floor with a party of arbitrary high level and numbers
    I believe Libris Mortis had the full story of Doresain. Long story short, he ascended after that adventure. He's a demigod now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    As you mentioned below, "doesn't ≠ couldn't"
    But let me point also: people who worship Lady on the Planes getting their spells just fine...
    There are no people who worship the Lady of Pain on the planes. There are a few flayed corpses lying around from people who tried, though. Her reach is not limited to Sigil.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Just because we unaware of her portfolio, it doesn't mean she don't have one


    This part always was inconsistent:
    Who the heck worships Elemental deities? Yet they're not just don't starving, but, actually, among the strongest...
    Deities such as Gorellik and Ramenos are practically not worshiped at all. While neither of them are "fine", they're still not "starved to death" yet...
    Orcus managed to be a deity with just one worshiper (Quah-Nomag)!
    Also, if lack of worshipers makes deities weaker, then why Tharizdun is still the strongest god ever? And why Doresain isn't Overgod yet - with his untold billions of worshipers?
    Let alone the Mythos deities...
    First—canonically, per Libris Mortis, most of Doresain's worship gets stolen by Yeenoghu, IIRC, and not all ghouls worship him. Also, the prayers of undead are weaker, at least according to what I remember of afrocanon, than those of living souls. What with, you know. Their souls not entirely being in it.
    Second—there are entities that are powerful in their own right that become gods. Demon princes ascend to godhood and are no less powerful for low numbers of worshippers. This may be the case of the Elemental deities and was definitely the case with Orcus. Or they might just get a tithe of all worship thanking the gods for the elements. It's unclear. This can cause a god with almost no worship to be stronger than deities with stronger worship, based on preexisting power.
    Third—We don't know what Tharizdun is exactly. It could be something beyond a god that can only be understood in terms of deific power. He does not come from the same cloth as other gods, as anyone else should have starved by now for lack of worship. I find it possible that Tharizdun and the Lady of Pain could be the same kind of entity. But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, very different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.

    If you want to do a campaign on the Lady being a deity, or... whatever Tharizdun is? Great! But canonically, none of the Factions in Planescape would dare consider her a deity. That's just the canon stance for the time being.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    There are no people who worship the Lady of Pain on the planes. There are a few flayed corpses lying around from people who tried, though. Her reach is not limited to Sigil.
    Source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, very different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.
    Who Would Win?: Tharizdun vs Lady of Pain
    (winner would fight vs Pandorym )

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Source?
    At the end of Die, Vecna Die! she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm pretty sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.

    Oh, and there was that time when she just straight-up murdered Aoskar despite (like every other deity) Aoskar being unable to enter the Cage.

    If she can kill a god on his home plane without warning or notice, odds are she can do the same for mortals trying to worship her outside Sigil.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Who Would Win?: Tharizdun vs Lady of Pain
    If for some odd reason she had to deal with him, the Lady of Pain would win that one.

    (winner would fight vs Pandorym )
    She'd win that one too.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    At the end of Die, Vecna Die! she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm pretty sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.
    Note: events of Die, Vecna Die! weren't accepted by certain part of Planescape fans: for them, it's Planescape version of Elseworlds
    But otherwise - OK...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Oh, and there was that time when she just straight-up murdered Aoskar despite (like every other deity) Aoskar being unable to enter the Cage.

    If she can kill a god on his home plane without warning or notice, odds are she can do the same for mortals trying to worship her outside Sigil.
    Yes, Aoskar's story is rather interesting...

    But I found one more (unexpected) point in favor of my interpretation:
    The Lady of Pain is one of the primary figures of the Planescape campaign setting. She is an immensely powerful being who protects the city of Sigil from outside forces. Despite being at least as powerful as any known deity, she accepts no followers and is known to respond to those who try to worship her with extreme violence (although strangely, not people who worship her in secret. There is at least one person in Sigil who secretly is a petitioner of The Lady whom she hasn't destroyed). While most Cagers don't like to invoke her name lightly, the phrase "Her Serenity" is commonly used to refer to the Lady of Pain.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    1d4chan is not any kind of primary source; Hashkar is a petitioner, yes, but the notion that he is a petitioner of the Lady is a rumor, as indicated in Faction War. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to be a petitioner without the anchor point being a deity. The Lady of Pain is not a god of any kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    How do souls interact with the Inner planes?
    Unless there's a divine realm they belong in, they generally don't.

    Let's say that an adventurer is killed on a demiplane or elemental plane, connected to the Ethereal but with no Astral conduit. What happens when they die?
    Long road. Through the Ethereal to its nearest Astral contact point, then into the Astral to get where they belong. If there is no valid contact somehow, they get stuck (this is what happens around Athas). It should be noted that the elemental nodes of Athas do have conduits to the broader Elemental Planes, so if you die while in one of them, you should get out just fine.

    Do they get (hypothetically) get sucked up through the Ordial Plane?
    Definitely not.

    Likewise, how do Ghosts come to manifest on the Ethereal, rather than the Astral? They are a being of pure soul; how do they manage to anchor themselves in the the plane of substance rather than belief?
    We've done that one before; short answer is that ghosts resist the pull of the Astral by anchoring themselves to the Ethereal, and until they're willing to release that anchor, they can't pass on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmosh View Post
    How common are pure classed Truenamers in Dwarven society, and specifically what would they contribute that the much more common, prestigious and generally far more powerful Clerics would not?
    Not tremendously common, and as noted they would be involved in genealogy and history, recordkeeping and scholarship. Less community-oriented than dwarven clerics, more behind-the-scenes. Dwarves have long memories and would archive the truenames of enemies as secret weapons that can be wielded when absolutely necessary, since truenaming is, you know... mechanically abysmal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Also, how do places with multiple sun gods (or multiple gods of other unitary things) that aren't affiliated with each other work? Is it like a bunch of people all messing with the thermostat? Does thy additively make the sun more sunlike? Are they merely sunlike themselves and not actually in control of the sun? Should some be assumed to be visiting gods of some other sun? Are they forced to regulate different aspects of the sun, even if they are understood by mortals as simply THE sun god? Or is it a combination of some of these or something else entirely?
    In general, gods who share a portfolio cannot share territory; syncretism or redefinition can result, both unfortunate outcomes for a deity. Nobody wants to be the sun god who represents just the dusk and nothing else, but that tends to be how such things end up going - one god gets treated as a more specific, specialized, and lower-scope power than the other, with commensurate impact on worshiper base and, given a large enough timescale, personal nature and abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I have a few questions:

    1. Does Ao and Lady Of Pain have a relationship together?
    No.

    2. What's Ao and Lady Of Pain alignment?
    Functionally true neutral. Neither of them has a use for being measured in such terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    I have some new questions.

    1) I know there are 9 races\types of outsiders defined by 9 standard alignments. I also know that each evil plane has its own denizens. But are there unique native outsiders to planes that are "in-between" alignment-wise: Bytopia, Beastlands, Arcadia, Acheron, Ysgard and Pandemonium?
    Oh each plane has lots of unique local wildlife, but not entire exemplar races in the fashion of the main nine. I considered the idea, as Tzardok pointed out, but ultimately didn't care for it.

    2) For some planes, I can't really understand the difference between petitioners and mortals residing there. Specifically Bytopia and Acheron. Most of Bytopia residents are gnomes and dwarves, mortal races that love this place and also petitioners have similar forms and even similar life style. Pretty much the same is with Acheron, but with goblinoids instead of gnomes. So, if someone visits one of those planes, how he would distinguish between a mortal resident and a petitioner?
    It can be difficult at times, but there are a few things that would set them apart - petitioners (with few select and specific exceptions) cannot learn, change, or grow, and often display a singlemindedness to their existence. They also have outsider traits, do not require sustenance or sleep, are planar committed, and possess very little ability compared to the living (being reset to functionally 1st level permanently). One of the most evident traits, however, is that petitioners, while generally aware of their identities, are a bit mentally checked out from them - you'd need to remind one to think about having had a name or a life.

    3) Rilmani have been mentioned quite a lot here. But if finding about other outsiders is relatively easy, I don't have any info on those. Where I can read about them? I don't mean stats, I am much more interested in lore, like how they usually behave, how they are organized, how their government looks like, how they treat outsiders, what relation they have to Blood War etc.
    Very very limited, there... I suppose the Planescape Monstrous Compendium II would be your best source.
    Last edited by afroakuma; 2020-10-13 at 07:38 PM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for. Same about "in-between" planes inhabitants - I was asking about major known races, not about generic (for planes) creatures.

    One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?
    Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-10-14 at 12:44 AM.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for.

    One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?
    Outsiders.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Thank you for the detailed answer. Also, thanks to others who replied. Afroakuma's answer about petitioners is actually what I was looking for.

    One more question about petitioners and outsiders: Modrons, are they petitioners or outsiders or maybe even both?

    Outsiders
    Then who\what are Mechanus petitioners and how they look and act?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    At the end of Die, Vecna Die! she restructured the entire order of the multiverse as the official canon reason for the tradition to 3e rules from 2e. If she has the power to change the underlying mechanics of the universe, across all the Inner and Outer planes, I'm pretty sure she's able to smite a worshipper outside of Sigil.
    I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse. (or possibly even just the side-effects of whatever he did to break the wards on Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread that reordered the multiverse)

    And being able to strike down anyone who speaks their name or holds their symbol is a bog standard divine power. Hand of Death doesn't even have a prerequisite.

    EDIT:
    And what exactly happened with Aoskar? I always he assumed that he was struck down while trying to enter the city.
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2020-10-14 at 04:43 AM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse.
    Nope. Vecna got in, wrecked **** just by being there, and when he was beat down the Lady did the reordering to repair the harm Vecna did.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Then, again - she didn't, actually, killed Vecna.
    Why?

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    1d4chan is not any kind of primary source; Hashkar is a petitioner, yes, but the notion that he is a petitioner of the Lady is a rumor, as indicated in Faction War. Furthermore, it is entirely possible to be a petitioner without the anchor point being a deity. The Lady of Pain is not a god of any kind.
    You see, Lady of Pain always was more plot device than actual character
    Thus, her nature was left deliberately vague: there is just no actual story for her
    Unfortunately, such vagueness leave limitless field to speculations - their rebuttal is: "Prove she isn't!.."
    When I read the theory: "Lady of Pain is six squirrels in a dress with Ring of Levitation", I decided to try my hand there too
    Instead inventing something completely outlandish, I decided to attack one of rather well-known - but, nevertheless (AFAIK) not directly stated in a RAW form - presumptions: "Lady of Pain is not a deity"

    Oh, she don't likes her followers?
    Well, guess who else don't like their followers?
    Ao!
    Is he not a god now too?

    My real point there is:
    When we take some great mystery, about which almost nothing is known - every new bit of info is chipping from that mystery.
    Let's compare:
    "SCP-055 is not a sphere."
    "Lady of Pain is not a deity."

    Thus, unless some book states in no-nonsense terms "Lady of Pain is not ...", we can speculate unrestrained:
    Squirrels?
    Daughter of Poseidon?
    Sure, why not?!..
    "Prove she isn't!.."

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    She'd win that one too.
    Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
    Lady of Pain is a part of the Multiverse;
    Thus - Pandorym is able to destroy Lady of Pain.
    And Dark Powers of Ravenloft too.
    (And Ao...)

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse, then chose her own corner to watch over the children in the sandbox. She isn't deity, she is above deities.
    Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-10-14 at 06:23 AM.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    She has power rivalling that of Ao at least. Again power =/= godhood however.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Then, again - she didn't, actually, killed Vecna.
    Why?
    Another question that has been answered a few times.

    Oh, she don't likes her followers?
    Well, guess who else don't like their followers?
    Ao!
    Is he not a god now too?
    Of course. Ao is no god. He is an overgod. That's a completely different thing. Overgods are entities that steward material worlds and control, for example, under what limitations and privileges gods operate in their specific sphere. Overgods do not need or want worship, and unless there is a major ****-up, you'll never even notice that they do their job. We know the names of two overgods: Ao and the High Lord of Krynn. We have no idea how many others are there.

    Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
    Lady of Pain is a part of the Multiverse;
    Thus - Pandorym is able to destroy Lady of Pain.
    And Dark Powers of Ravenloft too.
    (And Ao...)
    Elder Evils massively overstates the threat range of everything in it. Pandorym is the most powerful thing in there, and it will at best kill a few gods and do a lot of damage to the world of the sphere it is in before it is beaten down by something bigger and badder. I mean, Afro said just eight posts over your own that the Lady would destroy it if they fought.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse, then chose her own corner to watch over the children in the sandbox. She isn't deity, she is above deities.
    My personal opinion is that the Lady is the incarnation of the concept of the Bigger Fish. She exists to remind us that no matter how powerful and high up on the cosmological scale something or someone is, there will always be something that can stomp it.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Elder Evils massively overstates the threat range of everything in it. Pandorym is the most powerful thing in there, and it will at best kill a few gods and do a lot of damage to the world of the sphere it is in before it is beaten down by something bigger and badder. I mean, Afro said just eight posts over your own that the Lady would destroy it if they fought.
    • Complete immunity to any form of magic (except for Gate spell)
    • Divinity nullification
    • All which touch it is destroyed
    Try again!

    It's all answers without the answer
    I read it all, but still don't see why Vecna is still OK, but Aoskar is dead
    (Aside from "DVD is non-canon")
    Last edited by ShurikVch; 2020-10-14 at 10:36 AM.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    • Complete immunity to any form of magic (except for Gate spell)
    • Divinity nullification
    • All which touch it is destroyed
    Try again!
    Yes, thank you for telling us how Elder Evil overstates things (besides the divinity nullification, not even Elder Evil mentions it). As I said, as soon as it tries to pick a fight with one of the real baddies like the Lady, Tharizdun or, god forbid, a sleeping Draeden, it is a smear on the wall. Heck, Pandorym's stats don't even include a planeshifting ability, so it's likely that it just goes up to the crystal sphere and can't get out (if spheres of annihilation can destroy crystal spheres, I'll eat my hat).

    It's all answers without the answer
    I read it all, but still don't see why Vecna is still OK, but Aoskar is dead
    (Aside from "DVD is non-canon")
    Here, let me quote the specific part of the linked post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Afroakuma
    The Lady can't show him the door because he got in with enough strength to push back against as much force as she's able to personally exert without escalating the conflict to a level that would instantly sunder the multiverse. If she had elected to step it up, Vecna would be dust before he could blink.
    I am not sure what else you want.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Nope. Vecna got in, wrecked **** just by being there, and when he was beat down the Lady did the reordering to repair the harm Vecna did.
    "Even with Vecna’s removal, his time in the crux effected change in superspace. Though the Lady of Pain attempts to heal the damage, the turmoil spawned by Vecna’s time in Sigil cannot be entirely erased." -Die Vecna Die pg151
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Of course. Ao is no god. He is an overgod. That's a completely different thing. Overgods are entities that steward material worlds and control, for example, under what limitations and privileges gods operate in their specific sphere. Overgods do not need or want worship, and unless there is a major ****-up, you'll never even notice that they do their job. We know the names of two overgods: Ao and the High Lord of Krynn. We have no idea how many others are there.
    Excuse me, but overgod is still a god
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    These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Heck, Pandorym's stats don't even include a planeshifting ability, so it's likely that it just goes up to the crystal sphere and can't get out (if spheres of annihilation can destroy crystal spheres, I'll eat my hat).

    "Pandorym's stats"?
    Gee, what stats?
    Let me remind you: three biggest Elder Evils in the book - Atropus, Leviathan, and Pandorym - are have no listed stats!
    (Because, if they're, actually, appeared - then you're already lost)
    If by the "Pandorym's stats" you meant "Mind Shard of Pandorym" - then let me enlighten you: it's not the whole power of Pandorym; actually, it part is so infinitesimal to the "big whole" - Pandorym can have unlimited amount of Shards without becoming weaker in any notable manner

    The "divinity nullification", while not stated directly, is strongly implied: Pandorym agreed to kill the gods.
    And not just one or two - all the gods without exception.
    To try it without having any means to negate their divinity is as stupid as hunting bears while being unable to put a bear down
    And, judging by the fact gods were, actually, afraid - threat was completely real

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Here, let me quote the specific part of the linked post:

    I am not sure what else you want.
    Just as I said: answer without explanation - why killing the strongest "normal" god of the Multiverse (i. e. "strongest, but still no overgod") didn't caused Multiverse to fall apart?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    My personal opinion is that the Lady is the incarnation of the concept of the Bigger Fish. She exists to remind us that no matter how powerful and high up on the cosmological scale something or someone is, there will always be something that can stomp it.
    I tend to imagine Zagyg as the biggest fish. He kidnapped the gods and held them in his basement, and perhaps more importantly he's essentially a representation of Gygax' role as the first DM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Third—We don't know what Tharizdun is exactly. It could be something beyond a god that can only be understood in terms of deific power. He does not come from the same cloth as other gods, as anyone else should have starved by now for lack of worship. I find it possible that Tharizdun and the Lady of Pain could be the same kind of entity. But it should be emphasized Tharizdun is very, very different beast than a normal deity. We categorize him as a god because he can grant spells and has power that can dwarf divine abilities without worship. The Lady has the latter, and we don't know about the former.

    If you want to do a campaign on the Lady being a deity, or... whatever Tharizdun is? Great! But canonically, none of the Factions in Planescape would dare consider her a deity. That's just the canon stance for the time being.
    IIRC Dragon Magazine made Tharizdun a greater power.

    Also, Tharizdun does have worshippers. The cult of Elemental Evil worships him. Or at least the factions that don't worship Iuz, Zuggtmoy, or Lolth do at any rate
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    Then who\what are Mechanus petitioners and how they look and act?
    Depends on a number of things - the petitioners of any given divine realm will look an act as determined by that deity, and even petitioners on particular cogs or wheels may take on different forms. Some may eventually join with the energy pool of the modrons; others may become coggles or moignos and take their place in the regulation of the plane itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I thought it was Vecna who reordered the multiverse. (or possibly even just the side-effects of whatever he did to break the wards on Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread that reordered the multiverse)
    Vecna damaged the structure of the multiverse by being in Sigil for as long as he was, but he didn't ultimately get to reorder it.

    And what exactly happened with Aoskar? I always he assumed that he was struck down while trying to enter the city.
    One day one of the Lady's dabus servants put on the robes of a priest of Aoskar. That was the last straw. His temple was shattered and his corpse was found floating in the Astral Plane, riddled with blades and with an expression of deepest horror etched into his face.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    Unfortunately, such vagueness leave limitless field to speculations - their rebuttal is: "Prove she isn't!.."
    You've demonstrated clear disinterest in counterpoints, so this will be the end of my interaction with you on the topic. The answer is understood; if you don't actually want said answer, then I can't help you.

    Pandorym is able to destroy the Multiverse;
    Pandorym is identified as being able to eradicate all the worlds of the Material Plane. Eradication of the multiverse itself, or even a single plane, is not attributed to it. Given the farcical ease with which it was stopped from doing so in the first place, one does not have serious grounds for suggesting it could reasonably attempt to total a plane without sufficient intervention to prevent said outcome. Then again, that is of course the point - you have made a decision about what you want to represent as "the most powerful thing in the multiverse," and about what you want dethroned from said position. It's not my place to speak for your campaign, of course, but speaking to the information that others have come here to seek, I do not endorse your opinion.

    Given the tenor of your recent posts, I will also no longer be addressing your questions. Good day to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    My own opinion, of course not supported with anything, that the Lady is the one who created Multiverse
    She is not that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    I tend to imagine Zagyg as the biggest fish.
    Heh, definitely not. Zagyg managed to catch a few gods in his Godtrap, but there are many, many things in the multiverse that outclass him. He's clever, not powerful.

    IIRC Dragon Magazine made Tharizdun a greater power.
    I'd have to recheck, but I was pretty sure he'd been listed as Intermediate.

    Also, Tharizdun does have worshippers. The cult of Elemental Evil worships him. Or at least the factions that don't worship Iuz, Zuggtmoy, or Lolth do at any rate
    He's also got his own cults that more openly serve him rather than some disguise or misdirect.
    Last edited by afroakuma; 2020-10-14 at 01:56 PM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Pandorym is identified as being able to eradicate all the worlds of the Material Plane. Eradication of the multiverse itself, or even a single plane, is not attributed to it.
    And Material Plane is the linchpin: remove it - and Multiverse will fall apart!
    Also, don't forget: death of deities would cause implosions of their respective realms, and aspects of reality they were responsible for would go haywire, adding to the destruction...

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Given the farcical ease with which it was stopped from doing so in the first place, one does not have serious grounds for suggesting it could reasonably attempt to total a plane without sufficient intervention to prevent said outcome.
    What "farcical ease"?
    If you about how Pandorym was contained in the first place - we have absolutely no idea how it's happened in the first place. For all we know, Pandorym did all the "heavy lifting", and people who employed it just abused its trust...
    But if you're talking about the adventure itself - then "farcical ease" consist in... just not allowing it to get free in the first place, and leave it in the existing containment? Really?!

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Then again, that is of course the point - you have made a decision about what you want to represent as "the most powerful thing in the multiverse
    And you - didn't?
    Pot.
    Kettle.

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    Given the tenor of your recent posts, I will also no longer be addressing your questions. Good day to you.
    I don't expecting your answer this time, but just couldn't pass such dubious reasoning without reply. Good night.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    And Material Plane is the linchpin: remove it - and Multiverse will fall apart!
    Also, don't forget: death of deities would cause implosions of their respective realms, and aspects of reality they were responsible for would go haywire, adding to the destruction...
    Sounds like Godsmen propaganda tbh. The Outlands is the lynchpin, and Sigil a representative of that. There's no indication that Pandorym is interested in anything beyond a single crystal sphere and/or the gods therein, much less the entire material plane. There's no indication that if you kill the gods anything bad happens to the multiverse as a whole, or that removing the prime material plane won't cause a new one to be made from the intersection of the Astral and Ethereal.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    What "farcical ease"?
    If you about how Pandorym was contained in the first place - we have absolutely no idea how it's happened in the first place. For all we know, Pandorym did all the "heavy lifting", and people who employed it just abused its trust...
    But if you're talking about the adventure itself - then "farcical ease" consist in... just not allowing it to get free in the first place, and leave it in the existing containment? Really?!
    In Grand History of the Realms, a 4e book, the timeline of Faerun include Pandorym awake and chewing up the countryside for four years (1370-1374) without... really killing any gods or destroying the multiverse as it stands? And then he's put back to sleep by a couple of high level adventurers.

    From a deific perspective, that's... really not all that impressive?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShurikVch View Post
    And you - didn't?
    Pot.
    Kettle.
    I mean, by posing the question in this particular thread, you tacitly acknowledge that you are asking for afroakuma's perspective and that his answers are definitive. This is afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread of 8 years running.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    No point dwelling on it. Let's move on. I didn't come back for this

    Floor's open for questions, as usual.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Well, one thing did pop up recently.

    In Dark Sun, there's the Elemental Plane of Silt where there should normally be the Plane of Ooze, but transformations like Transmute Rock to Mud and Mud to Rock still work in a manner that implies that water and earth are still linked. Do you have any speculation about the Plane of Silt might have come about? Or plot ideas for a GM that may deal with a high-level campaign centered around returning the Plane of Silt to the Plane of Ooze?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    In Grand History of the Realms, a 4e book...
    That came out right at the end of 3.5's run and in fact doesn't mention any of the changes to Toril for Fourth Edition except in the most general terms.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Well, one thing did pop up recently.

    In Dark Sun, there's the Elemental Plane of Silt where there should normally be the Plane of Ooze, but transformations like Transmute Rock to Mud and Mud to Rock still work in a manner that implies that water and earth are still linked. Do you have any speculation about the Plane of Silt might have come about? Or plot ideas for a GM that may deal with a high-level campaign centered around returning the Plane of Silt to the Plane of Ooze?
    It may be a border area of Ooze - the Muckmire, the Slag Marshes, and the Oasis of Filth all would have regions that are "silt"-esque, being the borders to Earth, Minerals, and Dust respectively.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Is Sigil on the interior surface of the torus or the exterior surface? And is gravity towards the surface of the torus or towards the surface of the Outlands? And is the torus fully enclosed or is it a half-torus?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Is Sigil on the interior surface of the torus or the exterior surface? And is gravity towards the surface of the torus or towards the surface of the Outlands? And is the torus fully enclosed or is it a half-torus?
    Interior, the former, it's mostly enclosed
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