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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    What is the primary source for (seen quite a few times in these threads) piece of lore, namely: the "Guardian of the Dead Gods" is not a god anymore (but still can kick anyone's ass seven ways to Sunday) and doesn't like to be referred as "Anubis" anymore

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    Question Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?

    Or am I misremembering?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?

    Or am I misremembering?
    Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Was the dwarven deity Clangeddin Silverbeard always specific to the Forgotten Realms? I seem to remember back in 1E days he was either setting neutral, or possibly from the Greyhawk dwarven pantheon?

    Or am I misremembering?
    You are not misremembering.

    The first reference to Clangeddin is in the AD&D D&DG. He does not have a write up, but is merely mentioned as part of the dwarven pantheon in the description of Moradin.

    A note in Dragon #64, which introduced Raxivort, said that the non-human deities from D&DG were suitable for use in Greyhawk, with some notes shifting home planes of the humanoid deities about.

    The first write up of Clangeddin is in Dragon #58, part of a series on the non-human races available for player characters, which included an expanded pantheon.

    That deities from that series were reprinted in Unearthed Arcana (AD&D 1st version).

    They were included in DMRG4 Monster Mythology.

    The Greyhawk setting boxed set From the Ashes included a note that the demihuman pantheons from Monster Mythology were found in Greyhawk.
    Last edited by Tiktakkat; 2020-12-01 at 05:58 PM.

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    Thumbs up Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiktakkat View Post
    You are not misremembering.

    The first reference to Clangeddin is in the AD&D D&DG. He does not have a write up, but is merely mentioned as part of the dwarven pantheon in the description of Moradin.

    A note in Dragon #64, which introduced Raxivort, said that the non-human deities from D&DG were suitable for use in Greyhawk, with some notes shifting home planes of the humanoid deities about.

    The first write up of Clangeddin is in Dragon #58, part of a series on the non-human races available for player characters, which included an expanded pantheon.

    That deities from that series were reprinted in Unearthed Arcana (AD&D 1st version).

    They were included in DMRG4 Monster Mythology.

    The Greyhawk setting boxed set From the Ashes included a note that the demihuman pantheons from Monster Mythology were found in Greyhawk.
    Thank you both: his only 3E writeups appear in FR books, so I wanted to double check. I run a Greyhawk game, primarily.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    I am not sure what you were expecting. I mean, how do you imagine a flame and a wave doing the horizontal tango anyway?
    I thought it would be a good idea though but I guess I was wrong. Oh well.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    I am not sure what you were expecting. I mean, how do you imagine a flame and a wave doing the horizontal tango anyway?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Everything I found in my search tells me that the Dwaven Pantheon is identical on all worlds it gets worshipped on and (except for when Races of Stone replaced them with suspiciously similiar substitutes) didn't change much, if at all, over the editions. That includes Clangeddin.
    In Dragonlance they're all replaced by the god Reorx
    Last edited by Bohandas; 2020-12-01 at 09:15 PM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    In Dragonlance they're all replaced by the god Reorx
    Hence me saying "on all worlds where they are worshipped". On Krynn they aren't worshipped, so that world is irrelevant to the discussion.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    In our most recent session my character became infatuated with a sorceress who turned out to be a Green Slaad that was presumably impersonating the spell caster it was created from. The Slaad was eventually revealed and had a distinctly different personality from the sorceress and my character now wants to find a way to save this sorceress.

    How extra dead is she? The DM is obviously the final arbiter, but what might be involved in restoring her? True Resurrection is a boring obvious answer. We're level eight and have several powerful contacts who could launch us into Planes hopping. This Green Slaad was created by a Blue so that means no original body, right?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    In our most recent session my character became infatuated with a sorceress who turned out to be a Green Slaad that was presumably impersonating the spell caster it was created from. The Slaad was eventually revealed and had a distinctly different personality from the sorceress and my character now wants to find a way to save this sorceress.

    How extra dead is she? The DM is obviously the final arbiter, but what might be involved in restoring her? True Resurrection is a boring obvious answer. We're level eight and have several powerful contacts who could launch us into Planes hopping. This Green Slaad was created by a Blue so that means no original body, right?
    Killing the Slaad, destroying the body and then using Wish or Miracle to resurrect the original sorceress should do the trick, I think.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Why aren't there any good and evil elemental deities but there are good and evil elemental lords?
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-12-05 at 06:45 PM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmosh View Post
    Green Ronin's Armies of the Abyss is explicitly 3rd Party (and not especially afro-canon compatible), but it's pretty good 3rd party and really deserves mention here since it was co-written by Erik Mona of Fiendish Codex 1 fame, who explicitly intended it to expand upon the cosmology presented officially in FC1. It very obviously assigns WotC IP Lords different (very similar) placeholder names while focussing around minor Lords, expanding several mentioned by name only in the back of FC1.
    Bought it a few days ago. I'm a little bit disappointed with their handling of the demon lord of adventurers. I would have thought he would lean more heavily on murderhoboism and handling problems with violence and excessive force.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Clistenes View Post
    Killing the Slaad, destroying the body and then using Wish or Miracle to resurrect the original sorceress should do the trick, I think.
    If you use Wish or Miracle, is killing the Slaad even necessary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Why aren't there any good and evil elemental deities but there are good and evil elemental lords?
    Logically one would assume that the gods/lords/whatever of the elements are neutral, as the elements themselves are unaligned. I remember two explanations for why there are princes of elemental good and of elemental evil, but I don't remember which one, if any, is canonical:
    The first is that the originally neutral elemental lords where corrupted by the Elder Elemental Eye (one of Tharizdun's disguises), whereupon the Elemental Planes spawned the princes of elemental good as a counter balance.
    The second connects the schism to the War of Law and Chaos, where some elemental lords fought on the side of Law and others on the side of Chaos and changed their alignments based on their and their allies' methods.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    If half-fiends have a chariama bonus why do tieflings have a charisma penalty?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    If half-fiends have a chariama bonus why do tieflings have a charisma penalty?
    Because WotC hates evil races.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    If half-fiends have a chariama bonus why do tieflings have a charisma penalty?
    Because tieflings only inherit Evil's foulness, but not it's seductiveness?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Because tieflings only inherit Evil's foulness, but not it's seductiveness?
    Except for Annah in Planescape: Torment.
    And Kylie in Faces of Sigil.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiktakkat View Post
    Except for Annah in Planescape: Torment.
    And Kylie in Faces of Sigil.
    Those are seductive in spite of their ancestry, not because of it.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Those are seductive in spite of their ancestry, not because of it.
    I thought it was because of their tails.

    (And Sheena Easton doing the voice work for Annah.)

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Is there any reason why becoming a templated undead is not people's preferred afterlife? Because the reasons that would apply in most fantasy or horror settings are reversed in D&D; the undead (or at least templated undead) retain their faculties and their identities, whereas souls that have moved on to the next world wander their afterlife in a semi-conscious fugue state.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Is there any reason why becoming a templated undead is not people's preferred afterlife? Because the reasons that would apply in most fantasy or horror settings are reversed in D&D; the undead (or at least templated undead) retain their faculties and their identities, whereas souls that have moved on to the next world wander their afterlife in a semi-conscious fugue state.
    1. Petitioners aren't "semi-concious", they just lose (most of) their memories;
    2. Undead souls are often static, unable to change. while petitioners can grow closer to their god/the concepts underlying their plane until they fuse with them or evolve into something more, an archon for example;
    3. Undead are unnatural and bring more negative energy (and with it decay and destruction) to the world, need to feed on the living, are mentally parodies of their original personality or a combination of those three points;
    4. Most people don't know about all those things and so believe that they go to paradise with their everything intact, while undead are scary and ugly.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bohandas View Post
    Is there any reason why becoming a templated undead is not people's preferred afterlife? Because the reasons that would apply in most fantasy or horror settings are reversed in D&D; the undead (or at least templated undead) retain their faculties and their identities, whereas souls that have moved on to the next world wander their afterlife in a semi-conscious fugue state.
    Becoming a templated undead isn't an option that most people can just decide to take. Most forms of undeadification require strong personal magical capabilities (lich, dry lich, worm that walks), the sponsorship of particular gods (death knight, mummy/mummified creature, gravetouched ghoul), the assistance/intervention of other people/creatures/items (necropolitan, vampire, scion of Kyuss), unpredictable or otherwise un-guarantee-able circumstances (bodak, ghost, swordwraith), and so forth. If Joe Commoner decides that all the afterlives suck and he'd rather be an undead, there's not much he can do to bring that about without spending a lot of time and effort on that, whereas getting into the afterlife of one's choice just requires one to faithfully follow a deity.

    Even evil creatures who have no compunctions whatsoever about doing the morally-questionable things that might cause them to spontaneously rise as various kinds of undead and/or would be happy serving an evil god in hopes of earning undeath as a reward would often be better served visiting the temple of Bane once a week and donating to its Conquering Widows and Orphans fund to secure a place in Acheron as a more-or-less-humanoid-like petitioner than trying to pursue esoteric forms of undeath, simply because becoming undead under those circumstances is nowhere near guaranteed whereas becoming a petitioner basically is guaranteed if you're faithful.

    And that's before you get to all the practical and social limitations of undeath: undead creatures aren't welcome in most civilized regions because all the Lich Queens and Dread Emperors in a given world's history frittered away any goodwill a non-evil sapient undead might have had, someone who's undead can't really enjoy the pleasures of the flesh the way petitioner in Kord's realm can with their endless feasting or a petitioner in Sune's realm can with their endless...scintillating conversation, and so on. Compared to that, most people hoping to be faithful enough that their patron deity restores their memory core to them in the afterlife to enjoy eternal luxury as themselves looks like a better option most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    1. Undead souls are often static, unable to change. while petitioners can grow closer to their god/the concepts underlying their plane until they fuse with them or evolve into something more, an archon for example;
    2. Undead are unnatural and bring more negative energy (and with it decay and destruction) to the world, need to feed on the living, are mentally parodies of their original personality or a combination of those three points;
    Neither of those points is really supported in the lore. Regarding the former, a sapient undead can grow, learn, and change just as much in undeath as it could in life--and in fact that's kinda the whole point of the various varieties of lich, with "keep learning spells and hoarding magic items until I possess Phenomenal Cosmic Arcane Power!" being a major motivation for most of them--while many mortals don't particularly care about "becoming something more" in the abstract and can hang around for quite a while in the afterlife before merging with their plane or ascending into some other kind of outsider.

    Regarding the latter, undead creatures the positive energy-challenged are just as natural as any other form of life, since negative energy is just as much an integral building block of the cosmos as is the positive energy that powers most mortal creatures or the elemental energy that makes up elemental creatures and powers many constructs. Animating a new negative-energy-powered skeleton doesn't noticeably increase the amount of free negative energy on the Material Plane and bring decay everywhere it goes any more than a new positive-energy-powered humanoid being born noticeably increases the amount of free positive energy on the Material Plane and brings growth everywhere it goes. Sure, ghouls need to eat flesh and vampires need to drink blood, but the only difference between a ghoul chowing down on an elf and a lion chowing down on a gazelle is that the elf is sapient and can complain about it, and while that may make the ghoul evil it doesn't make it "unnatural."
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Logically one would assume that the gods/lords/whatever of the elements are neutral, as the elements themselves are unaligned. I remember two explanations for why there are princes of elemental good and of elemental evil, but I don't remember which one, if any, is canonical:
    The first is that the originally neutral elemental lords where corrupted by the Elder Elemental Eye (one of Tharizdun's disguises), whereupon the Elemental Planes spawned the princes of elemental good as a counter balance.
    The second connects the schism to the War of Law and Chaos, where some elemental lords fought on the side of Law and others on the side of Chaos and changed their alignments based on their and their allies' methods.
    Wow. Ok, I understand the first part of Elder Elemental Eye part but I don't understand the War of Law and Chaos part.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-12-10 at 03:38 PM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Neither of those points is really supported in the lore. Regarding the former, a sapient undead can grow, learn, and change just as much in undeath as it could in life--and in fact that's kinda the whole point of the various varieties of lich, with "keep learning spells and hoarding magic items until I possess Phenomenal Cosmic Arcane Power!" being a major motivation for most of them--while many mortals don't particularly care about "becoming something more" in the abstract and can hang around for quite a while in the afterlife before merging with their plane or ascending into some other kind of outsider.
    I used to wrong word; not static, stagnant. I am quite sure that Afro mentioned in one of the earlier threads that sapient undead have a noted tendency to not change much, to be set in their ways. He also mentioned that undead worship is less nourishing for deities and gave the stagnancy of their souls as a reason.
    Regarding petitioners, all of them feel the drive to come closer to their planes/powers and fuse with them, but not all of them are in a hurry. They've got eternity.

    Regarding the latter, undead creatures the positive energy-challenged are just as natural as any other form of life, since negative energy is just as much an integral building block of the cosmos as is the positive energy that powers most mortal creatures or the elemental energy that makes up elemental creatures and powers many constructs. Animating a new negative-energy-powered skeleton doesn't noticeably increase the amount of free negative energy on the Material Plane and bring decay everywhere it goes any more than a new positive-energy-powered humanoid being born noticeably increases the amount of free positive energy on the Material Plane and brings growth everywhere it goes. Sure, ghouls need to eat flesh and vampires need to drink blood, but the only difference between a ghoul chowing down on an elf and a lion chowing down on a gazelle is that the elf is sapient and can complain about it, and while that may make the ghoul evil it doesn't make it "unnatural."
    I may be mistaken, but I distinctly remember Libris Mortis mentioning that undead are in some way funnels to the Negative Plane. What happens inside a ghoul is fundamentally different from what happens inside a lion. Inside a living being, the eaten thing becomes changed into a new state. That doesn't happen inside a feeding undead. Whatever is eaten by it gets funneld into the Negative and eradicated. Every time an undead feeds, it makes the world a little less.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Wow. Ok, I understand the first part of Elder Elemental Eye part but I don't understand the War of Law and Chaos part.
    You remember the War of Law and Chaos, do you? Well, the story I heard went that during the War the elemental leaders chose sides. Most elementals sided with Law, but some went to Chaos.
    So, for example, Zaaman Rul sided with Chaos. He fought side-by-side with the early Eladrin and learnt Good from them. Imix, on the other hand, chose Law. His allies were Asmodeus and his ilk, and he learnt Evil.
    Just an example. No idea wether it's true.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    IYou remember the War of Law and Chaos, do you? Well, the story I heard went that during the War the elemental leaders chose sides. Most elementals sided with Law, but some went to Chaos.
    So, for example, Zaaman Rul sided with Chaos. He fought side-by-side with the early Eladrin and learnt Good from them. Imix, on the other hand, chose Law. His allies were Asmodeus and his ilk, and he learnt Evil.
    Just an example. No idea wether it's true.
    You mean to tell me that Chaos is good and Law is Evil? Where did I heard that before?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    You mean to tell me that Chaos is good and Law is Evil? Where did I heard that before?
    No, that is not what I said at all.

    To give another (most likely inacurate) example:

    Yan-C-Bin sided with Chaos. He slaughtered side-by-side with demons and learned Evil. Chan took the banner with the archons or their precedessors and learned Good.

    Do you now understand what I meant with "changed their alignments based on their and their allies' methods"?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    No, that is not what I said at all.

    To give another (most likely inacurate) example:

    Yan-C-Bin sided with Chaos. He slaughtered side-by-side with demons and learned Evil. Chan took the banner with the archons or their precedessors and learned Good.

    Do you now understand what I meant with "changed their alignments based on their and their allies' methods"?
    Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to grasp everything for what you said. I'm very confused here.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    Forgive my ignorance but I'm still trying to grasp everything for what you said. I'm very confused here.
    Not everybody involved in the War of Law and Chaos was pure Law or Chaos; their were still Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil factions, they just prioritized the Law/Chaos split in choosing sides at that time over the Good/Evil. Elementals that had previously been largely Neutral would be influenced depending on who they allied with - if you wound up fighting under Asmodeus and other fiends, you would learn the Evil perspective on Law and be influenced toward becoming Lawful Evil, or if you were more attracted to Chaos you might end up going marauding with demons and learning how to do Evil Chaotically. Same on the Good flip side: elementals who fought with angels would be drawn toward Good as well as law, while those who skirmished alongside free bands of Eladrins would tend to develop a Chaotic Good viewpoint to match their battle-brothers.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by tyckspoon View Post
    Not everybody involved in the War of Law and Chaos was pure Law or Chaos; there were still Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil factions, they just prioritized the Law/Chaos split in choosing sides at that time over the Good/Evil. Elementals that had previously been largely Neutral would be influenced depending on who they allied with - if you wound up fighting under Asmodeus and other fiends, you would learn the Evil perspective on Law and be influenced toward becoming Lawful Evil, or if you were more attracted to Chaos you might end up going marauding with demons and learning how to do Evil Chaotically. Same on the Good flip side: elementals who fought with angels would be drawn toward Good as well as law, while those who skirmished alongside free bands of Eladrins would tend to develop a Chaotic Good viewpoint to match their battle-brothers.
    Well, that makes sense. Thank you fir explaining more clearly.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

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