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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Sep 2016

    Default Re: I don't know how to dungeon

    Quote Originally Posted by Duff View Post
    ...
    Jayem has also laid out a fairly conventional dungeon which will be a lot quicker to build and should play out faster.

    ...
    OTOH, the bandit lair is probably a single [d&d] session, almost certainly the party won't rest and if they have to withdraw and come back the GM should consider how the bandit leader responds to the 1st intrusion.
    Sounds a fair assessment, I was trying to focus on identifying metaphorical keys and locked doors (I didn't do it perfectly).
    Some of building it up would be that the surroundings would be significant and be part of the 'dungeon'
    The other aspect would be thinking of it more like collosal cave/adventure and making each encounter a tactical challenge, although that works better the more mundane you are. (Also then failure is more safe)
    Last edited by jayem; 2020-07-28 at 01:09 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: I don't know how to dungeon

    I've found that the best time to work on dungeon creation is during the world-building stage. Is there going to be a lot of dungeon bashing in the regular game? Yes? Then deciding on who built all these dungeons and ruins is the first step. Ancient civilizations, elder races, a prior high-tech era, overactive dwarves...someone built heaps of stuff, that is now overgrown, ruined and lost.

    As for dungeons, have a few set pieces, a few drop anywhere encounters, and a robust random encounter table...and don't be afraid to have multiple encounters coincide if it is warranted. 99-100 on most of my charts is "roll twice, then roll d6, 1 the two meet and are friendly, 2-3 the two meet and are neutral, 4-6 the two meet and are hostile". Adds a bit more dynamic to the dungeon...
    "There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter."
    ~ Ernest Hemingway

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    Dwarf Magus (Deep Marshal) spell list

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Orc in the Playground
     
    D&D_Fan's Avatar

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    Default Re: I don't know how to dungeon

    Theme and origin is important for deciding what is in a dungeon.

    Example:
    a dungeon that is a tomb for a powerful demigod, and has powerful divine magic infused within it.
    Difficulty: Hard
    Monsters:
    Enemies who opposed the demigod have returned to life, and will not let the adventurers past. These could include:
    • an ancient and evil wizard who is now a lich, who was a sworn enemy of the demigod.
    • an ancient and evil dragon who was slain by the demigod.
    • an ancent and evil demon bound in the tomb.

    Traps and Puzzles:
    • An invisible bridge that can only be crossed by those who have faith that it is there.
    • a room where you must identify out of many items which one belonged to the demigod.
    • a room which forces you to relive a battle with a foe that the demigod fought in life (see Monsters)

    Treasure:
    Powerful weapons of legacy that the demigod wielded, thought to be lost to time.
    • an ancient holy sword.
    • a cloak worn by the demigod that bestows the wearer with a vestige of the demigod's power.

    Decor:
    • Ancient runes adorn walls.
    • Massive statues.
    • titanic bas reliefs that tell long epics with great insight and knowledeg to those who are willing to read them.
    • Holy symbols, and shrines.


    Example 2
    A crashed alien spacecraft from a powerful civilization.
    Difficulty: Medium
    Monsters:
    the beings that reside in this "dungeon" are not of this world, and will likely be misinterpreted by the adventurers.
    • a powerful golem that can hurt the party with the power of the sun. In actuality, this is a robot, from the ship's security, who identifies the party as invaders. It can fire lasers, and its armor seems impervious to attack.
    • a small green man, the man speaks in an unintelligible toung. If threatened, it will fire a strange device in it's hand, which will harm the party. In actuality, this is one of the few alien survivors.

    Traps and Puzzles:
    • A glowing wall that must have the right identifying badge to open a door. The party must find whoever has or had the bedge to proceed.
    • a trash compacter. The party must find a way to turn it offf before being crushed, perhaps they are bein attacked by a neo-otyugh.

    Treasure:
    • alien weapons, such as a laser pistol, or a plasma cannon.

    Decor:
    • Wires and sparks from a bad crash.
    • glowing walls, that can beinteracted with.
    • strange technology with seemingly maical effects.
    • sleek modern architecture.



    With dungeons, you should find a theme, and base the dungeon around it.
    Dungeons can have multiple intersecting themes.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Jan 2006
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    Default Re: I don't know how to dungeon

    Lots of good advice here, but I'm going to give sort of a short-cut bit: buy a module, or a dungeon crawl, pre-written. If you're into 5e D&D, Tales From The Yawning Portal has some good and some bad dungeons in it, but I would rate Sunless Citadel as an excellent one, and I think the Against the Giants campaign arc it provides in 3-4 dungeons has very good examples of how to design dungeons that serve a few purposes. I also have a soft spot in my heart for White Plume Mountain, since it was one of the first dungeons I read when I was first getting into D&D, back in 1e/2e times.

    Tomb of Annihilation has been a campaign module I've been very pleased with as I've been running it, though the hex crawl is not the best-done. You'll probably want to ask around for advice on how to better balance the exploration aspect than I did. My players spent forever in-game traveling (as well as lots of real sessions), and seemed to steamroll everything with no fear of the wilderness at all and no shortage of resources that I could justify based on the prep they did.

    They're under-leveled for the eponymous tomb, but we'll see how that goes. The design of the Fane and the Tomb, as well as various site-based dungeons during the hex crawl portion, are all pretty good in my opinion, and might give you ideas for your own designs.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: I don't know how to dungeon

    Keep on the Borderlands was a great little module. The keep makes for a great base to adventure from, and is easily dropped in anywhere. The Caves of Chaos are a little rediculous these days, but used individually make for great drop in adventures.
    "There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter."
    ~ Ernest Hemingway

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  6. - Top - End - #36
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lacco's Avatar

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    Default Re: I don't know how to dungeon

    Yora, you have my sympaties. I completely understand, or at least have the feeling I do. Let me start with simple: me neither. I'm still learning it.

    I love dungeons. Well, I love the 'idea' of dungeons. Vast, sprawling mazes of corridors, puzzles, traps, obstacles, monster lairs, all that in ruined underground city? Beautiful idea.

    But I can neither design that nor run them (without exhausting my players). They also love dungeons - or the idea - but we clash at the execution. Once they get into the dungeon, they hurry through it, disregarding anything - trying to short-cut their way to the end as soon as possible. They never explore anything. Save for one or two things that look interesting and safe.

    Spoiler
    Show
    I once asked them why. They told me my dungeons are scary places...


    And since I do not play DnD, I have to work the dungeons up from the ground.

    Well, no help so far? Let’s try to give some.

    Most fun advice:
    Try running How to Host a Dungeon.
    That was actually the first dungeon of mine that I liked. It felt natural, offered exactly the logical stuff and still provided me with some creative inputs. And history!

    When I let my players in, they were finally interested in what lies beyond – and while they were still scared (and we had to cut the exploration short because the weekend was getting to its end), they tried to find their way.

    ...actually, if you do not like drawing dungeon maps, if you run it here, I’ll gladly draw one for you.

    Let’s assume there is an NPC (some ancient dude, sitting on his beard, living from dungeon energy) somewhere in your dungeon. Here are some ways you can look at the dungeon to make it more exploration-worth:

    Dungeons are a straight way to your goal (if you know which way to go). First, do it as usual. You have your guardian, your door, your NPC. This is the Skyrim way – their dungeons often have one single highway to the goal and few side attractions. First make the highway.

    Dungeons are safe storages. If talking about crypts & catacombs, it’s easy to understand why there is actual loot: people put shiny stuff to their dead. They do not wish for it to get stolen, and may add stuff later (and bodies too), so there need to be guardians, doors and traps. Traps must be deadly, but the right guy should be able to bypass them. Doors may require keys (that’s why we drag the thief around) or may be of the „puzzle“ type, because people tend to lose keys but know how their crest looks.

    Dungeons are puzzles themselves. Think of the dungeon as the puzzle. Players have to solve it: how to reach that room we see up there? How to open the damned door? Where is the damned door now? Navigating the dungeon can be easy for the guys who know their ancient languages, but if not, they will not decipher the runes below the moss. So: start adding other roads, how to get where. Shortcuts. Hidden corridors. Solving the dungeon also means finding the optimal loot. Think the trolley problem – there are few smaller gems and one large statue that looks rather expensive, but if you try to remove it, the floor may collapse (a trap and puzzle!), getting you deeper into the dungeon (which some may like).

    Dungeons are stories. The first part was built by dwarves. The other part by dark elves. Dwarves and elves met in the middle, and had a long, protracted war – thus the fortifications. Many died, but when the earthquake came, almost nobody was left standing. Dwarven colony became locals‘ catacombs, the elven part was occupied by goblins and thus walled off as soon as they were discovered. Think about the history – the buildings will stand, but their purpose will change. Their contents and occupants will change. In the end, mostly vermin, monsters and undead will stay. But before that, there were proud cities, tombs of kings. Writings on the wall, engravings, scrolls – they should find those all the time. And the changes will be noticeable – the players should be able to discern „what the hell happened here?“

    Dungeons are collections. Collectibles are something that most people enjoy. So: the guy who built it could easily put his most interesting stuff there. The strangest stuff, maybe – for safekeeping. As you walk the halls, you see a large behemoth of a cauldron, hanging from chain whose links are thicker than your leg. Don’t tell your players it was a kitchen. Let them guess and then find it out – they will feel smarter. The strange apparatus on the table? A teleportation box, but not finished. Where is the other side? If you repair it you may know...

    Dungeons are strange. As someone mentioned above: players will readily poke & test strange stuff. I once managed to stall a group of heroes in single room with an Eye-of-the-Beholder style niche in the wall & button. You insert something into the niche, push the button, something else appears (sometimes good, sometimes bad). There was a method to this madness, and they started to put almost everything inside. They did not care why it was there, but amused themselves.

    Dungeons are sidequests. Your NPC is there. That’s the highway. Now give them few side streets and alleys. Each is a sidequest. There are other NPCs, some will be helpful if you help them. Some will need something, others will just want to shoo the PCs away from their door. But when they find a scroll describing king’s old sword, stored on his catafalque – that should be a sidequest. With its own highway, with its own guardian, door and maybe a trap or two.

    Dungeons are ruins. Ever went into a decrepit building? Half-broken stairs, floor that gives way, the strange mold – well, that’s modern day adventuring. Your players venture into ancient halls of mystery, which means not only traps and puzzles, but traps and puzzles of natural decay. Each room will have debris of some kind. But the debris can be a puzzle, a trap, an obstacle, or even NPC. The nice bridge that leads to upper level? Broken. The ramp that leads below to the lower level? Flooded. The door to the guardian? Locking mechanism is in the lower level, stuck and also flooded, and it’s on timer (because once you pull the lever, the water pressure will again make it close).

    Dungeons are combat arenas. I think you know this part well, so no comment here. Okay, one comment: think of all the things above. A fight on a narrow bridge to stall a group of attackers is fine. The same fight on a narrow bridge right over the guardian’s lair is better. Especially if the guardian is a giant octopus and the bridge is starting to collapse.

    Comments?

    Puzzles: puzzles can be used as locks, but also as navigation. Think the „two brothers“ puzzle (one true, one lying) and try conceiving a crypt with it in mind. The puzzle is there over the first set of doors, but is valid for all other choices inside (each T-intersection, each set of doors, each couple of keys).
    I also liked your idea „doors that require secret knowledge“. That’s already a good idea for a sidequest in the dungeon – of course the high priests of the temple would know the answer, but there needs to be a backup. So the party can either try to piece together the lore in the dungeon or head to nearest library to find the book which will get them to correct NPCs... you know the drill.

    Final three bits:
    Have you tried pointcrawls? Chris Kutalik has few nice articles about them, but basically: you do not make the whole dungeon, but series of choices, which lead from point to point.

    Definitely Try the How to Host a Dungeon minigame. I’m quite sure you’ll enjoy it. Just make sure to finish it – it gets more and more fun. It's not a be-all-end-all solution, but it will make you look at dungeons a bit differently.

    Lastly... if I remember, one of your preferred playstyles is a hexcrawl. Tell me: how do you make an interesting hexcrawl that supports exploration? And how could you use the same for a dungeon? I’ll gladly discuss this as I like hexcrawls, but could not run them with my players...
    Last edited by Lacco; 2020-08-12 at 03:27 PM.
    Call me Laco or Ladislav (if you need to be formal). Avatar comes from the talented linklele.
    Formerly GMing: Riddle of Steel: Soldiers of Fortune

    Quote Originally Posted by Kol Korran View Post
    Instead of having an adventure, from which a cool unexpected story may rise, you had a story, with an adventure built and designed to enable the story, but also ensure (or close to ensure) it happens.

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