Good Isn't Nice? Get Out Of Here!

[Bartmanhomer]

Here's an example, Bartmanhomer.

Goku is Good and Nice.
Vegeta is Good and Mean.

Both have saved the world multiple times, sacrificed themselves to save others, and fought to protect the weak. But Goku is a nice guy while Vegeta is usually pretty rude.

That's a good example. I know that Vegeta is nasty but I never thought he'll be good. I haven't watch Dragonball Z for a while. I'm missing out a lot.

[Cluedrew]

Nice is part of manipulation, not goodness. The people who are nice to you are the ones you should watch out for.

You sound like the people who insist I'm not taking them seriously because I'm being polite.

More generally one of the more positive spins on good and not nice is "Tough Love" (at least when it is the real thing), roughly: being the right amount of mean to someone to help them out in the long run.

[Kyutaru]

You sound like the people who insist I'm not taking them seriously because I'm being polite.

No I sound like one of the people who thinks a billionaire donating a million dollars to charity is not out of generosity but for the substantial tax break and favors it earns.

[vasilidor]

I have been nice to people because that was the fastest method to get them to go away that would not get me in trouble. did i actually care in the moment? no. I just wanted them to go away.

[AntiAuthority]

Here's an example of two good characters. One nice and the other... Not so much. They're both worried about the kids they saved, but while Superman tells them to be smarter in a gentle manner, Batman makes a joke that they'd eventually get themselves killed doing dangerous stunts... One is meaner than the other, but both have good intentions at heart to dissuade the youngsters from trying anything that dangerous again when the heroes might not be able to save them.

[BisectedBrioche]

Well, my definition of good that nice is part of good but I guess it isn't.

A lot of evil in the world can be laid at the feet of people who word their evil as kindly as politely as possible, admonish the people they mistreat for not explaining why they deserve the basic dignities as kindly as possible, and the people on the sidelines who agree.

[Theoboldi]

A lot of evil in the world can be laid at the feet of people who word their evil as kindly as politely as possible, admonish the people they mistreat for not explaining why they deserve the basic dignities as kindly as possible, and the people on the sidelines who agree.

I think that is conflating politeness and niceness, though. By that definition, you could even call torturing someone 'nice' as long as you did it with a smile on your face and a gentle tone to your voice. In the context of this discussion, that may cause some misunderstandings.

[Cluedrew]

No I sound like one of the people who thinks a billionaire donating a million dollars to charity is not out of generosity but for the substantial tax break and favors it earns.

I mean you might also sound like them but what is with the "No"?

[The Fury]

Disagree. Nice people are nice because they want something. They want you to be nice back. It creatives a positive feedback loop where you say Good Morning expecting someone to return the greeting. People who don't you look at weirdly and try to avoid while those who do create that feeling you're looking for. Communities form around similar mindsets and ostracize the ones who don't want to comply and conform.

I generally agree with Delicious Taffy that this is nitpicky. Genuinely good people want something from the people they help too-- they want them to be OK.

I don't think you're necessarily associating malice with niceness, but I do think that you're making assumptions about why people are nice. In my case, yeah. I generally will greet people when I see them. Sometimes people return the greeting, sometimes they don't. Those that don't probably have a reason. Maybe they didn't hear me, maybe they have a lot on their mind, maybe they just don't want to talk to me right now. In any case, I don't think I'm doing them any favors by avoiding them. Maybe they'll want to talk later.

A lot of evil in the world can be laid at the feet of people who word their evil as kindly as politely as possible, admonish the people they mistreat for not explaining why they deserve the basic dignities as kindly as possible, and the people on the sidelines who agree.

Oh yeah... agreed. That's how you make godawful actions seem reasonable.

[Duff]

For good-but-not-nice I give you Miko the Paladin (until she was't).
She seemed to be the least nice member of the Sapphire guard, but most of them seem quite pleasant to be around.
And I can see a case that the personality traits which made her not-nice also contributed to her fall, but people would have to work pretty hard to convince me her fall was inevitable because of her personality

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If you treat those who are cruel and oppressive to the vulnerable nicely, you're being cruel to their victims by not allowing them to keep speaking hate and acting maliciously. The tyrant and the abuser need to be stopped, and the best ways to make sure they're stopped aren't very nice. That's where paladins (the most common subjects of the title quote) come in.

[Yanagi]

The word "nice" can be an aesthetic evaluation--that is an agreeable person to be around--or it can be a moral evaluation--that is a kind person.

That a person can be "good" by being kind, but not be "nice" because they are not agreeable, is a common character trope. The inversive--an agreeable person turns out to not be a kind one--is also a trope.

However "nice" as in "kind" still includes a degree of scale: it is possible to engage in superficial kindness but ultimately do immoral things that are profoundly unkind.

[Bartmanhomer]

For good-but-not-nice I give you Miko the Paladin (until she wasn't).
She seemed to be the least nice member of the Sapphire guard, but most of them seem quite pleasant to be around.
And I can see a case that the personality traits which made her not-nice also contributed to her fall, but people would have to work pretty hard to convince me her fall was inevitable because of her personality

She's definitely not the type of paladin to hang out with, is she?

[AdAstra]

A lot of evil in the world can be laid at the feet of people who word their evil as kindly as politely as possible, admonish the people they mistreat for not explaining why they deserve the basic dignities as kindly as possible, and the people on the sidelines who agree.

Agreed. It also comes down to a difference in words vs actions. Plenty of people sound mean (or at least impolite) but act incredibly nice. Knight in Sour armor on a smaller scale, more or less. While most of the meanest people are practically saccharine in their speech.

[Kaptin Keen]

Here's an example, Bartmanhomer.

Goku is Good and Nice.
Vegeta is Good and Mean.

Both have saved the world multiple times, sacrificed themselves to save others, and fought to protect the weak. But Goku is a nice guy while Vegeta is usually pretty rude.

Batman and Wolverine are both good - but you wouldn't consider them nice.

Whereas say, the Penguin is nice, polite, mannered, friendly - and definitely evil.

Actually, there are too few nice villains. Personally, I find likeable villains to be both the most realistic, and by far the most terrifying. Someone who could be your lovable elderly neighbor, but also wouldn't think twice about butchering you in their basement, if it suited their plans.

[jayem]

The batman_penguin election episode is presented almost a platonic battle of good v nice (of course in this case we know the niceness is false anyway). Batman competes on issues, penguin on feelings, what monster doesn't even kiss a baby.

I think there's another one where genuinely well meaning nice do gooders cause havoc (and plenty of other occasions where batman is the nice one, against the Miko's of Gotham)

[BisectedBrioche]

I think that is conflating politeness and niceness, though. By that definition, you could even call torturing someone 'nice' as long as you did it with a smile on your face and a gentle tone to your voice. In the context of this discussion, that may cause some misunderstandings.

In some cases, yes. But it's hard to tell where one starts and the other begins.

One can mix nice acts in with unspeakable cruelty (as The Onion loves to point out), and one can be unfailingly nice while being blisteringly uncouth.

[Arkhios]

Jotaro Joestar Kujo is downright a-hole. Still, he's a good guy.

Likewise, Judge Dredd is pretty rude and unpleasant to be around, but he's one of the good guys, too.

[CharonsHelper]

Likewise, Judge Dredd is pretty rude and unpleasant to be around, but he's one of the good guys, too.

I'd argue that Dredd specifically would be more LN than LG myself. Though I do agree with the general premise that good doesn't equal nice.

[Agrippa]

Jotaro Joestar is downright a-hole. Still, he's a good guy.

You mean Jotaro Kujo, fight? Yes he's Jonathan Joestar's great grandson, but his mother Holly/Seiko married the Japanese sax player Sadao Kujo and adopted the family name, but Jotaro is still a member of the Joestar bloodline.

[BisectedBrioche]

I'd argue that Dredd specifically would be more LN than LG myself. Though I do agree with the general premise that good doesn't equal nice.

There's some argument for him being LG in a LN to LE setting (for example, he's supported a switch to democracy in some stories). And it's established that he's incorruptible, but that might depend on your distinction between LG and LN.

I suppose a clearer example would be Sam Vimes from Discworld.

[CharonsHelper]

There's some argument for him being LG in a LN to LE setting (for example, he's supported a switch to democracy in some stories). And it's established that he's incorruptible, but that might depend on your distinction between LG and LN.

I suppose a clearer example would be Sam Vimes from Discworld.

It's definitely a LE setting, or at least right on the cusp between LE & LN. But that's part of what I think makes Dredd LN. He's more than willing to enforce LE laws, because they are THE LAW.

But - D&D alignment only works at all if you're okay with broad ballparking. I wouldn't have any issue with a character who was LG and played like Dredd - with the possible exception if they were a paladin.

Plus, I'm hardly an expert of Dredd; I've read a few comics and watched the movie. Likely you know more about him, as I had no idea that he favored democracy.

[Saintheart]

It's definitely a LE setting, or at least right on the cusp between LE & LN. But that's part of what I think makes Dredd LN. He's more than willing to enforce LE laws, because they are THE LAW.

But - D&D alignment only works at all if you're okay with broad ballparking. I wouldn't have any issue with a character who was LG and played like Dredd - with the possible exception if they were a paladin.

Plus, I'm hardly an expert of Dredd; I've read a few comics and watched the movie. Likely you know more about him, as I had no idea that he favored democracy.

He had something of an existential crisis seeing what the Judge system was inflicting on the population, and particularly on being asked to crush a democracy movement in Mega-City One. Dredd pushed through the first democratic vote in about a hundred years or so, the subject of the vote being whether the Judge system remain or whether Mega-City One should return to democracy. The vote was for the Judge system to remain. That then gave him the impetus to stare down the democracy movement on a simple proviso: "Democracy's not for the people, because the people don't want it."

[Arkhios]

You mean Jotaro Kujo, fight? Yes he's Jonathan Joestar's great grandson, but his mother Holly/Seiko married the Japanese sax player Sadao Kujo and adopted the family name, but Jotaro is still a member of the Joestar bloodline.

Details, schmetails. He's yet another spiritual (re)incarnation of JoJo nonetheless.
I'm not a diehard fan of the series. I've just watched the first three seasons (or however they're split up) of them only very recently on Netflix, so naturally I mixed up some (I'd argue very minor) details.

[CharonsHelper]

That then gave him the impetus to stare down the democracy movement on a simple proviso: "Democracy's not for the people, because the people don't want it."

That's an interesting theme. I might have to go read up on Dredd a bit more. I have seen in other fiction (and arguably IRL) the theme that freedom/democracy only really works if it's fought for by the populace. Given from outside sources doesn't work.

[Democratus]

Exactly what is meant by 'nice'? It is a very vague term.

The dictionary I picked up had these 3 primary definitions:

• Pleasing and agreeable in nature.
• Having a pleasant or attractive appearance.
• Exhibiting courtesy and politeness.

None of these really have any bearing on the good/evil spectrum.

[JNAProductions]

Exactly what is meant by 'nice'? It is a very vague term.

The dictionary I picked up had these 3 primary definitions:

• Pleasing and agreeable in nature.
• Having a pleasant or attractive appearance.
• Exhibiting courtesy and politeness.

None of these really have any bearing on the good/evil spectrum.

Eh... I'd say that, if someone has absolutely nothing else going on in the Good/Evil spectrum, literally completely zilch, then being nice is a minor bump to Goodness. Being nice helps make people happy, and happy good!

But it's really minor. A grouchy jerkwad who does their best to save lives and make the world a better place is far more Good than a pleasant murderer.

[kyoryu]

Exactly what is meant by 'nice'? It is a very vague term.

The dictionary I picked up had these 3 primary definitions:

• Pleasing and agreeable in nature.
• Having a pleasant or attractive appearance.
• Exhibiting courtesy and politeness.

None of these really have any bearing on the good/evil spectrum.

Exactly. Goodness is fundamentally a concern about others and a willingness to sacrifice for them.

Now, someone that is concerned about the well-being of others will probably try not to cause undue stress to them.... but that's such a minor thing that it wouldn't bump you from Good if you're not doing it.

Evil OTOH just wants to get what it wants, regardless of who has to be harmed. But Evil doesn't have to be about harm, Evil just doesn't give a damn. And if being nice will get you what you'll want? You'll be nice.

[Kyutaru]

Exactly. Goodness is fundamentally a concern about others and a willingness to sacrifice for them.

Now, someone that is concerned about the well-being of others will probably try not to cause undue stress to them.... but that's such a minor thing that it wouldn't bump you from Good if you're not doing it.

Evil OTOH just wants to get what it wants, regardless of who has to be harmed. But Evil doesn't have to be about harm, Evil just doesn't give a damn. And if being nice will get you what you'll want? You'll be nice.

Similarly, the nice people who don't make waves and get along with everybody and continue about their business in a happy way keeping their head down and looking the other way while their neighbors get taken away by the minions of the evil tyrant are being pleasant respectable human beings in every way with not a single Evil action taken to harm another unless you think it's every Good person's moral duty to rise up and resist. The kingdom may be corrupt but the Good citizens still scurry about their daily routines unable or unwilling to affect change and being as pleasant as can be throughout it because it's traitorous to question the king's policies and there are happier things to think about.

Somehow though the not-nice resistance members that want to overthrow the despot are the ones who get the flack as though they're not as Good as the others. Hell, they're probably more Good, even the ones that have to resort to murder and fearmongering. Alignment is rarely a cut and dry thing and that makes it interesting for the gamemaster.

[Man_Over_Game]

You could say that being Nice is the same as being Peaceful, or Politeness. Peace is generally beneficial for most people, so wanting to get along with your neighbor isn't necessarily a selfless act.

Goodness comes from self-sacrifice and empathy. You are willing to give up something for a benefit that you may not be rewarded from, or at least be rewarded in a way that is profitable for you.

A charismatic person that's Nice to you could use you for personal gain. If a Good person makes you feel bad, they'll generally apologize for it, as the apology hurts their character more than ignoring your problems would.


That's not saying that wanting Peace can't be a Good thing. That's why most Good people are also Nice.

But that doesn't mean that you can't have a person that is rude to others due to obliviousness, but regularly tries to compensate for his flaws.

Or, put simply:

• Nice = Avoiding problems, because Peace is almost always beneficial (for you, or others)
• Good = Willing to self-sacrifice for another's benefit.