OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[link3710]

Wouldn't that require remaking the world?

No, look at the very first comic strip! Wouldn't it be a nice bookend to start the comic with upgrading to 3.5, and end it with upgrading to 4(/5/6/whatever it gets called)th edition?

Also, despite the fact that this was clearly planned out years in advance, it's interesting to see the comic swing so much into feeling like commentary on current events, both of the BLM and the "D&D Races have inherent issues discourse" kind.

[Arathorne]

How did Hobgobstan lose? That was clearly the superior option!

I am in full agreement here this name would have got my vote also.

[SpectralTime]

What I like about this discussion is, when Redcloak turns it into a contest of rhetoric, Durkon struggles, but when Durkon is able to turn it into discussing the facts of the case, fair and plain, in such simple but accurate terms that the point at hand isn't up for debate, he pulls ahead. Makes sense, given Redcloak probably enjoys better Charisma, but Durkon better Wisdom, relative levels and performance enhancing items aside.

[2D8HP]

Awwwwe. We could have had "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins"?[...]

I agree, 'tis very catchy.

[Dragonus45]

good to see things are going well! Hopefully they'll be able to make some kind of deal soon. Though i fear the curse of "the story must go on" might have something interrupt this.

Don't see why the Goblins wouldn't be able to keep Gobbotopia. Human countries that conquer their enemies get to keep their conquered territories, just see Tarquin's entire scheme for an example of that. Plus the Azurites have already begun settling that abandoned Elven island. Way i see it, everything's kind of evened out right now, kicking the Goblins out would just cause yet more strife.

Well one assumes when an enemy government is in exile, still has politics allies, and a sizable military that they are going to want their homeland back. Arguably rightly so. Tis a complicated issue for sure, but I took now it now it’s mine traditionally only lasts for as long as you can keep it no matter where you fall in the monster manual.

[LadyEowyn]

YES!!

IT’S TIME!!

Also, confirmation that Redcloak’s demands really are for equality, not world conquest.

[Zhorn]

"I wouldn't expect a dwarf who was surrounded by gold and gems to understand what it's like to struggle or do without"
"... Uh huh"

That! That right there is where the challenge in the negotiations lie.
Redcloak is right in that goblins have had it rough, but he's blind to how other races could understand the experiences of his people. No matter what Redcloak gets out of this deal, that attitude there will hold him back from ever feeling equal.

edit:
also +1 for Hobgobstan.
... my DM asked me ages back where my wizard hails from... I think I now know

[Ninja Dragon]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation. But regardless peace will be supremely hard to come by after the slaughters at Azure City, not to mentioned that atrocities committed after they took it. It might take some literal divine intervention for this cycle of violence to end, Red Cloak has an oncoming lesson in the futility of trying to reach justice through unjust means.

It's ironic because Redcloak is totally wrong about the assumptions he's making about Durkon's life, yet he would be right if he had compared the dwarves as a whole to the goblins.

And kudos to Durkon for just swallowing it and not letting it affect the negotiation. High Wisdom stat indeed.

[Syncrogti]

He should also ask that goblins get added to the PHB as a playable race.

I like this, a lot. I love it when the comic breaks the fourth wall/acknowledges the game it is based on.

What would the race look like in terms of stats and so forth? Feats? proficiencies?

[happycrow]

Worst case? Goblins cease to exist and all the Gods' efforts go to naught -- again, and possibly forever. RC may have his blind spots, but he's the one needing to be brought to the table, and all the cards are in his hands, because regardless of RC's issues, goblins at large are in a great position to go all Ahab on the gods.

[Dragonus45]

It's ironic because Redcloak is totally wrong about the assumptions he's making about Durkon's life, yet he would be right if he had compared the dwarves as a whole to the goblins.

Is it a fair comparison though? He seems to assume an easy life of plenty and riches, but that hasn’t been what we saw of dwarven culture at all. And also forgets that even if they might have easier access to material wealth through the highly dangerous and difficult job of mining work they also have Hel and that entire larger conflict making life as a dwarf deeply unpleasant in so many ways.

[Wildstag]

Great to see Durkon was able to bring Redcloak back down from the "I have them in abject terror!" high. Durkon hasn't really explained why the "Redcloak success" is ultimately a loss for Goblins in the long run, and I suspect that kind of information would be crucial to the discussion: if the Gods feel like they have to cut and run, they will do so at the drop of a hat, and The Dark One will not survive into the next world.

At least Redcloak is steering the conversation into a bargaining chip direction though. It'd be interesting for him to actually talk to TDO though. Perhaps for him, equality isn't enough and vengeance is desirable. If it goes that way, then Redcloak really can't do anything. He might have power, but without his God's support, it's just two mortals talking things out right now.

I also really love that Durkon just moved past the jab in panel 8 without getting hung up on it.

Also, it's neat that Redcloak basically confirms that Orcs are just socially accepted in the world, with a very different dynamic than you'd see in other settings. There might have been confirmation about that elsewhere, but I think for the most part we've only seen Half-Orcs treated casually.

[Ninja Dragon]

Is it a fair comparison though? He seems to assume an easy life of plenty and riches, but that hasn’t been what we saw of dwarven culture at all. And also forgets that even if they might have easier access to material wealth through the highly dangerous and difficult job of mining work they also have Hel and that entire larger conflict making life as a dwarf deeply unpleasant in so many ways.

I think I'd still prefer living my life in dangerous mine work than living my life being hunted by another species for xp, tbh.

[Ninja Dragon]

if the Gods feel like they have to cut and run, they will do so at the drop of a hat, and The Dark One will not survive into the next world.

Uh... why wouldn't he?

[Personification]

I love how this comic showcases the real pain that drives RC's actions as well as the way that it blinds him to the way that he has succeeded. Durkon's point about achieving equality through stabbing versus healing is really deep, and the way that Rich used the characterization and plot development from the previous book (where he showed the Thundershields living in poverty) to highlight RC's ignorance and speciesism without having to interrupt story flow.

[AlphaNone]

Uh... why wouldn't he?

It was mentioned in strip 1144.

[AlphaNone]

No, look at the very first comic strip! Wouldn't it be a nice bookend to start the comic with upgrading to 3.5, and end it with upgrading to 4(/5/6/whatever it gets called)th edition?

That reminds me, has Rich ever announced plans to do any material on 5th edition?

[gatemansgc]

I like this, a lot. I love it when the comic breaks the fourth wall/acknowledges the game it is based on.

What would the race look like in terms of stats and so forth? Feats? proficiencies?

maybe give them longer lifespans too!

[Elifia]

I like this, a lot. I love it when the comic breaks the fourth wall/acknowledges the game it is based on.

What would the race look like in terms of stats and so forth? Feats? proficiencies?

Is the comic not still based on 3.5e? If so, are the stats on the d20srd not the official stats? Those list the following:

-2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma.
Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters.
A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
Favored Class: Rogue.

[NobleCuriosity]

Okay wow.

Redcloak getting all excited makes me more and more think Xykon is going to walk in on this.

That said, it almost seems unfair to Redcloak’s character development for him not to be the one to end this meeting one way or another.

Great to see Durkon was able to bring Redcloak back down from the "I have them in abject terror!" high. Durkon hasn't really explained why the "Redcloak success" is ultimately a loss for Goblins in the long run, and I suspect that kind of information would be crucial to the discussion: if the Gods feel like they have to cut and run, they will do so at the drop of a hat, and The Dark One will not survive into the next world.

At least Redcloak is steering the conversation into a bargaining chip direction though. It'd be interesting for him to actually talk to TDO though. Perhaps for him, equality isn't enough and vengeance is desirable. If it goes that way, then Redcloak really can't do anything. He might have power, but without his God's support, it's just two mortals talking things out right now.

I also really love that Durkon just moved past the jab in panel 8 without getting hung up on it.

Also, it's neat that Redcloak basically confirms that Orcs are just socially accepted in the world, with a very different dynamic than you'd see in other settings. There might have been confirmation about that elsewhere, but I think for the most part we've only seen Half-Orcs treated casually.

I suspect the “Dark one wants Vengeance” is likely, unfortunately. Ironically the living one probably wouldn’t have, but the god the Dark One was raised by a yearlong campaign of murderous vengeance. We know belief affects the Gods tremendously.

However, I don’t think what we’ve seen supports that Orcs are fully socially accepted. They are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but Therkla had to put up with a lot of racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”

That reminds me, has Rich ever announced plans to do any material on 5th edition?

Not that I’m aware. He did a storyline about the Ootsers meeting the 4e versions of themselves in Snips, snails and Dragon tails. I haven’t heard of any plans to do that with 5e though.

[Blatt]

What Redcloak really wants is for Goblin souls to be accepted into other afterlives according to alignment, not just the Dark One. Once the other Gods take Goblin souls, they will automatically value them.

[drazen]

Because I'm always tripped up by the most important issues, I'm still baffled that they didn't just go with "The Goblins' Republic of Hobgoblistan."

[Snails]

What really needs to happen is to convince TDO that it would be worth it to open up enough for Thor/others to reach out to him, before he has the snarl ready to use (because he won't have it ready to use because the world will be blown up).

Based on the info TDO has, this is looking win-win, right now. If he gets a pet Snarl, he gets to squeeze out concessions. If the world is destroyed, he gets concessions when the world is remade.

That TDO will probably not survive to the next world is not something this god is aware of. Furthermore, even Thor does not claim it as an absolute truth; Thor only mentions that gods stronger than TDO have failed to survive in the past.

[shockeroo]

They’re lucky it’s a pre-internet society, or they’d all be living in Gobby McGobface by now!

[kenlund]

I liked the reference Redcloak made to adventurers killing a village of Goblins is considered good...while a Goblins killing a village of humans would be considered bad. One time playing D&D, when I was new to it, I brought up that unprovoked we did a home invasion on goblins, killed everyone and stole everything of value. And the we weren't attacked or even noticed...until we ran across them as a random encounter while traveling and started killing. We even entered (broke in) using move silently and hide checks. So we caught them off guard and slaughtered many of them before they could react. It seemed odd to me to do this since our group was good aligned. But as long as the Paladin and Cleric gave the appropriate tithe of their share of the stolen treasure to their Church/Gods, everything was ok.

[Draconi Redfir]

Well one assumes when an enemy government is in exile, still has politics allies, and a sizable military that they are going to want their homeland back. Arguably rightly so. Tis a complicated issue for sure, but I took now it now it’s mine traditionally only lasts for as long as you can keep it no matter where you fall in the monster manual.

but it was stated before that they DON'T have allies, at least none willing to help them take back their home. the best they could get were a few small Elven squads.

And this was before they got their current island, which they have now, and have already begun settling. It just doesn't make any sense to force two civilizations to pack up and move out, leaving one homeless and an established island abandoned, when you could just leave both of them as they are and be fine.

They could certainly arrange for Gobbotopia to release their ensalved human populations and let any resistance members leave the city peacefully, maybe return items and furniture to the families that originally owned them, but i don't see why the land would need to be given up. Do the Azurites even have the numbers needed to populate a city like that any more?

[Ruck]

How did Hobgobstan lose? That was clearly the superior option!

Calling it that would give the lie to the appealing but ultimately specious pan-goblinoid narrative.

[Aisper]

I think the problem with Durkon's "three paths" summary (as concise as it was) is that it incentivizes Redcloak to attack Durkon.

In Redcloak's eyes, Option #1 is bad for goblins, but much less likely if Durkon is dead. Option #2 is potentially good (not the "gods blow up the world" part, but the "Redcloak/Xykon stops the Order" part) and also much easier if Durkon is dead. Option #3 may be the best option, but doesn't require Durkon, so Redcloak may as well hedge his bets and kill Durkon.

I could see Redcloak ending up convinced by Durkon but still attacking him as a practical course of action.

[Cirin]

good to see things are going well! Hopefully they'll be able to make some kind of deal soon. Though i fear the curse of "the story must go on" might have something interrupt this.

Don't see why the Goblins wouldn't be able to keep Gobbotopia. Human countries that conquer their enemies get to keep their conquered territories, just see Tarquin's entire scheme for an example of that. Plus the Azurites have already begun settling that abandoned Elven island. Way i see it, everything's kind of evened out right now, kicking the Goblins out would just cause yet more strife.

{scrubbed}

So yeah, people can have very, very long memories about these sorts of things. When a city that's the hub of an entire Empire, an entire culture, an entire civilization is overrun by invaders. . .if that culture or civilization survives in any capacity, they tend to remember and be bitter about it for centuries to come.

[Dragonus45]

I liked the reference Redcloak made to adventurers killing a village of Goblins is considered good...while a Goblins killing a village of humans would be considered bad. One time playing D&D, when I was new to it, I brought up that unprovoked we did a home invasion on goblins, killed everyone and stole everything of value. And the we weren't attacked or even noticed...until we ran across them as a random encounter while traveling and started killing. We even entered (broke in) using move silently and hide checks. So we caught them off guard and slaughtered many of them before they could react. It seemed odd to me to do this since our group was good aligned. But as long as the Paladin and Cleric gave the appropriate tithe of their share of the stolen treasure to their Church/Gods, everything was ok.

It’s all about context in the end, some settings and campaigns a village of goblins is a threat like any other next of monsters to be wealth with. Others it’s a place where relatively innocent people live with an entirely different story and plot to explore. I’m betting in that game it was certainly the first.