OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[B. Dandelion]

Okay, it was a bad example that I refined in further posts. Let me turn around the original example so it makes sense.

Switch the roles of Ox and Marduk. Marduk says that Ox's followers deserve to fall for their actions against his creations, whom Ox previously viewed as monsters. Ox is now obliged to address the actions of the paladins or put it on the agenda of the next vote... does Marduk's claim that these are not monsters hold up to the general consensus of the gods?

I still don't see why Marduk gets a say at all. Goblins aren't his jurisdiction. The Sapphire Guard isn't his jurisdiction. It's 100% None Of His Business.

I don't see how it would be Marduk's business if a Sapphire Guard paladin killed a dwarven child from the North, either. One or more Northern gods would likely have objections if the Twelve declined to punish their follower, but we really have no idea how such a dispute would work out. Maybe the gods have some pre-arrangement regarding divine casters that covers most such cases. (e.g. killing a child of a PC race = instafall.) Maybe things have to get thrown to a godsmoot between the two competing pantheons -- and maybe they call in the third to provide a neutral outsider perspective. But it's highly speculative.

Except in the case of the goblins, there's no god on their side saying "Hey, this needs to be addressed". The Dark One is the only god in their pantheon and he doesn't know what he's doing (to be fair, he didn't have other gods to guide him like everybody else does; this is world one for him). With nobody to stand up for them, the status quo of 'these are monsters' is not challenged... unless another god happens to review the case and say "Hey, why'd they kill the children?". That could take months or years, and with no one talking on the goblins' behalf could easily end with "because they're monsters".

I agree that it means the goblins have no effective advocate, I just don't see why that makes things complicated to the point that the gods are afraid of stepping on anyone's toes. It's the other way around. They're free to do whatever, because literally no one cares what happens to goblins. If you want your paladins to massacre goblins, no one will object, but no one will care if you declare some actions out-of-bounds for your own worshipers either. You want to get sentimental about the gobbos then it's just more free XP for somebody else.

[C-Dude]

I still don't see why Marduk gets a say at all. Goblins aren't his jurisdiction. The Sapphire Guard isn't his jurisdiction. It's 100% None Of His Business.

I was using gods of two pantheons to make an example. You're getting hung up on the goblins.

Let's say Marduk created a species called BananaRams, which are typically lawful evil and like to attack nearby settlements. The other gods might perceive these creatures as monsters (something for adventurers/clerics to whomp for XP), and might even send their paladins to kill them. In this instance, it would be Ox sending the Sapphire Guard to kill the BananaRams. Suppose in the course of their actions they executed several BananaRams that were not lawful evil, but rather lawful neutral bystanders. While Ox has the right to issue a fall upon those paladins, he has no reason to assume this is an infraction to the paladin code... unless Marduk comes out and says "Hey, you can't do that". After all, BananaRams seem to have been designed for the purpose of being dungeon-fodder.
But in that scenario, there's a god looking after them to stand up for their rights.

In the scenario with the goblins, there is no such god. Or rather, their god TDO doesn't know HOW to stand up for their rights and call for the falls of those paladins, and is instead resorting to the 'military threat' tactics he employed in life (only on a cosmic scale). He COULD be their advocate if he hadn't cut off all lines of communication with the other pantheons; but at the moment there's no one on the divine front proclaiming that goblins are humanoids and NOT monsters. Without that context, why would any god even consider a fall for their paladins for this action?

Essentially, in order for Redcloak's demand that his people not be "killed on sight" to be met, there needs to be at least one god batting for the goblins on the astral plane. TDO would need some serious charm school training to be the god for the job.

I agree that it means the goblins have no effective advocate, I just don't see why that makes things complicated to the point that the gods are afraid of stepping on anyone's toes. It's the other way around. They're free to do whatever, because literally no one cares what happens to goblins. If you want your paladins to massacre goblins, no one will object, but no one will care if you declare some actions out-of-bounds for your own worshipers either. You want to get sentimental about the gobbos then it's just more free XP for somebody else.

Yes, that's the point. With no advocate there's no inclination to think twice about what happens to the goblins. The 'stepping on toes' is baggage of the first example which was admittedly poor; it was framed passively from the perspective of Ox instead of actively from the perspective of the wronged party.
The whole scenario of needing to resolve inter-region paladin falls at a godsmoot is to address that the gods of different pantheons never meet in person (for fear of creating a Snarl Jr, as the Giant has stated), and to address the incongruity of the time-gap between the alignment-shifting act and the actual loss of powers. Again, Miko's was instantaneous because it was cut-and-dry (a southerner wronging a southerner), but there might have been a significant time gap if her falling act had been committed against a dwarf or an elf. That is what I suspect we've witnessed in the "Start of Darkness" scene: a bureaucratic delay in consequence.

[The_Weirdo]

Essentially, in order for Redcloak's demand that his people not be "killed on sight" to be met, there needs to be at least one god batting for the goblins on the astral plane. TDO would need some serious charm school training to be the god for the job.

Why? Is Hel more charming or less evil than him?

[C-Dude]

Why? Is Hel more charming or less evil than him?

Actually yes, Hel is more charming than the Dark One because she is willing to communicate with her father Loki. Their relationship is founded on hatred and backstabbing, but they actually have a relationship. The Dark One rolled up the sidewalk and started researching a weapon of celestial destruction to use against everyone, including the gods who kept him from being a splat on Thor's hammer when he was newly deified.

While Hel and TDO might seem equally evil (they both seek the death of the other gods), Hel's goals are constrained to a single pantheon while TDO's are aimed against all of reality. I'd say the bigger scope of destruction pushes him further into the red.
Being evil by itself wouldn't keep him from having diplomatic relations with the other gods, but his intent to threaten them won't go over well; they'll just destroy the world and start again, he'll starve in the interim, and the status of goblinoids won't have changed... if anything it will encourage worse conditions to try to force another spontaneous purple quiddity deification.

[The_Weirdo]

Actually yes, Hel is more charming than the Dark One because she is willing to communicate with her father Loki. Their relationship is founded on hatred and backstabbing, but they actually have a relationship. The Dark One rolled up the sidewalk and started researching a weapon of celestial destruction to use against everyone, including the gods who kept him from being a splat on Thor's hammer when he was newly deified.

While Hel and TDO might seem equally evil (they both seek the death of the other gods), Hel's goals are constrained to a single pantheon while TDO's are aimed against all of reality. I'd say the bigger scope of destruction pushes him further into the red.
Being evil by itself wouldn't keep him from having diplomatic relations with the other gods, but his intent to threaten them won't go over well; they'll just destroy the world and start again, he'll starve in the interim, and the status of goblinoids won't have changed... if anything it will encourage worse conditions to try to force another spontaneous purple quiddity deification.

Not bad. Except for calling TDO more evil than Hel (as he's got waaaaay more reason), I fold on this one.

[Sindeloke]

People are agreeing with Weirdo and Weirdo is conceding arguments. WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS THREAD.

Do Dwarves still get bonuses for attacking Goblins in 4+Ed?

Not in 5e, although that probably has more to do with the fact that that sort of thing is way too fiddly for 5e's general design philosophy than any sort of abandonment of the "these races are historical enemies and study how to kill each other" lore.

In 4e it wasn't built-in, but it was available through racial feats.

[The_Weirdo]

People are agreeing with Weirdo and Weirdo is conceding arguments. WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS THREAD.

I don't know. I'll need to get more Brazilian snacks for the people joining the dark side at this rate.

Here, so you guys can make them as well.

Spoiler: Recipes!

Show

And the finest snack of my state, Pão de Queijo!

Of note, I think Parmesan is a bit too strong a cheese to make Pão de Queijo (or cheese puffs). We use Minas cheese here, but my suggestion for you guys might be a mix of Mozzarella and maybe some Parmesan. When done, I recommend cutting it open and adding butter or even some sweet jelly! Guava, a favorite!

[KorvinStarmast]

Because they didn't go after the Bearer "for existing", they did it because they knew he's the head of a conspiracy to destroy creation.

Go back a second and read some Robert Jordan. One of the few things that "Wheel of Time" did well was to play around with the weird things that happen when prophecy is involved, and how it turns on itself when the subjects of that prophecy are aware of the prophecy itself.

Rich is not original in his treatment of the weird ways in which prophecy is both self fulfilling and self defeating. But, he's done OK in playing around with that little trope.

As an author, his treatment of that trope as regards Redcloack is low grade, but in his defense he was working on his craft as a story teller at the time. He did a far better job of expressing all of that, and toying with it within the constraints of his own muse, with his Durkon prophecy and the circular functions thereof, for which I can only stand and offer a round of applause.

Well done.

As to the Xykon / Eugene / Roy / Julia blood oath thing; it began awkwardly, but since Rich has matured a lot as a writer since then, I have great hopes for how he'll wrap that all up and tie it in a bow. Very much looking forward to that. To me, that is the slice of wedding cake that all of the guests wish they could eat, but don't get to.

Yeah and Redcloak didn't attack the Sapphire Guard for existing, he attacked Azure City (and them with it) because they slaughtered his people.

Yes indeed, and as GDGU illustrates, somewhat, the SG were off dealing with a no-kidding prophecy about how the red cloak would be their doom / end (see previous part of this post on prophecy often going in strange directions). They did not, and being mortal could not, understand. (See SoD and GDGU for amplification on that. Yeah, go and Buy Rich's Sequel and Prequel stuff: it's worth it! ) {I receive no financial benefit for posting the foregoing. This is a sincere endorsement} .

In their pursuit of preventing the prophecy they were in fact accelerating it's arrival - which, in parallel, the High Priest of Thor did vis a vis Durkon.

We 'the readers' who are on the outside looking in get that, but the paladins of the SG "on the inside with no reason in-world to look out" did not, and could not. They had to be "who they were" not just due to authorial agency, but also due to no character in any story worth telling having 'plot omniscience' at all.

They fulfilled the role they needed to - just as Gollum did in LOTR. You may find the character less than appealing, but that character, or in that case pile of NPCs, had to exist or the story won't work as designed.

For another take on how necessary a catalyst is to a good story, after you've gone out and gotten some more of Rich's non-on-line stuff, take a look at the Farseer stories by Robin Hobb. She spends upwards of nine books exploring how important a catalyst is to story telling.

The Sapphire Guard, and thus in her own small way, Miko Miazaki, was a critical catalyst to the narrative.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, go and Buy Rich's Sequel

Wait, what!?

[B. Dandelion]

Not the "goblin prophecy" stuff again! It's the OOTS fandom-specific version of the Mandela Effect. I'm sorry to say this, but if you recall there being something about the Sapphire Guard acting on a prophecy about the destruction of their homeland, your brain is lying to you. There has never been mention of any such thing.

Scour the books if you don't believe me. It's not in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished. It's not in Start of Darkness. It's not in On the Origin of PCs -- although that one does mention a prophecy regarding Durkon and the destruction of the dwarven homeland.

It's not in any of the published books. It's not in the updated PDF versions of those books. It's not in the Kickstarter stories. It's not even in the coloring book, or the game, or the calendars. It's never come up in the Giant's posts on the Playground, on Twitter, on Patreon, or on Kickstarter. Either Rich sneaked it onto a Christmas ornament from 2011 or it just was never said.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I seriously doubt this is a real thing in-comic... and frankly does the scenario of "Had a rubbish life? Unfair afterlife? Good news, you'll cease to exist soon" really sound like a positive thing?

Not in comic, but from one of Rich's forum posts.

Souls go to the afterlife and eventually dissolve into the substance of the Outer Plane to which they are remanded, end of story.

And I'm not saying ceasing to exist is a positive thing in absolute terms, I'm saying if (and only if) your entire future is horrible torture ceasing to exist sooner is better than latter.

[Peelee]

Not in comic, but from one of Rich's forum posts.

And I'm not saying ceasing to exist is a positive thing in absolute terms, I'm saying if (and only if) your entire future is horrible torture ceasing to exist sooner is better than latter.

I think the issue there was not "dissolve into the plane", but rather "it happens faster in Evil afterlives".

I see no reason to believe that unless otherwise stated in-comic or by the author out-of-comic.

[F.Harr]

There's some good dialogue here.