OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[Snails]

What Redcloak really wants is for Goblin souls to be accepted into other afterlives according to alignment, not just the Dark One. Once the other Gods take Goblin souls, they will automatically value them.

The is a sharp insight. Unfortunately, I doubt Redcloak fully understands the implications of his actual desires and goals. True equality would be all creatures of type Humanoid, especially goblins, being PC races that live in cities. But Redcloak is grasping onto Goblotopia, for sounds reasons, and wants something more, too. I doubt he sees that the "something more" has deep implications, that may include giving up Goblotopia in the long run.

It turns out that the Real World and WotC have caught up to the central moral vision of this comic. Because to truly scrub D&D material of certain controversial elements will IMNSHO require a revamp of all Humanoids to be on a more equal footing.

[Cirin]

I think the problem with Durkon's "three paths" summary (as concise as it was) is that it incentivizes Redcloak to attack Durkon.

In Redcloak's eyes, Option #1 is bad for goblins, but much less likely if Durkon is dead. Option #2 is potentially good and also much easier is Durkon is dead. Option #3 may be the best option, but doesn't require Durkon, so Redcloak may as well hedge his bets and kill Durkon.

I could see Redcloak ending up convinced by Durkon but still attacking him as a practical course of action.

Yeah, I think Durkon didn't explain well enough why Option #2 is Very Bad for him.

Redcloak probably thinks that in the next world, The Dark One will get an equal chance to remake the world alongside the other Gods. I vaguely remember that was mentioned at some point, that he figured there was a chance that The Plan could destroy the world, but at least it would mean the next world would have The Dark One there at the creation to advocate for Goblins.

The fact that TDO is unlikely to survive to the next world because he won't have enough divine power to last until the Snarl calms down and they can return to the material plane to make a world is a fact that Durkon forgot to mention. . .and one that we don't know if Redcloak would even believe it if it was.

[LadyEowyn]

but it was stated before that they DON'T have allies, at least none willing to help them take back their home. the best they could get were a few small Elven squads.

And this was before they got their current island, which they have now, and have already begun settling. It just doesn't make any sense to force two civilizations to pack up and move out, leaving one homeless and an established island abandoned, when you could just leave both of them as they are and be fine.

They could certainly arrange for Gobbotopia to release their ensalved human populations and let any resistance members leave the city peacefully, maybe return items and furniture to the families that originally owned them, but i don't see why the land would need to be given up. Do the Azurites even have the numbers needed to populate a city like that any more?

I agree with all of this.

[Euclidodese]

Well one assumes when an enemy government is in exile, still has politics allies, and a sizable military that they are going to want their homeland back. Arguably rightly so. Tis a complicated issue for sure, but I took now it now it’s mine traditionally only lasts for as long as you can keep it no matter where you fall in the monster manual.

I would bet any money in the world (other than my money, I'm confident, I'm not an idiot) that Gobbotopia will remain at the end of this comic strip.

Can you imagine what a downer the Azurites reconquoring their city would be? Goblin children crying in terror as they flee the only home they've ever known. And then what if the Azurite civilians don't want to go back? What if they don't want to pack up their lives, their young children, their farms and businesses and trapse across the world so that they can live in a twice-conquored mess of a city. Sure, some will feel happy to walk the same streets and look up at the same mountains that their great-great grandfathers did, but others just won't care. The past is the past.

Not to mention that the reconquoring itself will cost a huge number of lives, both Goblin and Azurite, and would possibly leave the Azurites with fewer allies and a reputation for violence.

Gobbotopia has a dark past, but a bright future, like {scrubbed}. And it's been welcomed into the loving arms of the international community of nations. Redcloak's plan has already succeeded, he's just too arrogant to realise it, which is beautiful.

{scrubbed} .

It's the same with any country which sits on 'stolen' land, you can't change the past, and 'liberating' this land just means someone else invading it and another group getting kicked out.

[dragonjek]

Hm. I'm getting a feeling like this part will end in one of two ways:
1.) The other gods agree to give equal rights and import to the goblins, Redcloak and the Dark One agree to stop... right as Xykon either finds the gate, or walks in on them to announce he found the gate.
2.) The other gods agree to give equal rights and import to the goblins, Redcloak agrees to stop... but when he contacts the Dark One, the god is too mad that things are over so "easily" and wants more.

And there's still the possibility of
3.): The OotS act like an adventuring party and manage to ruin the entire thing on the verge of success.

[LadyEowyn]

Hm. I'm getting a feeling like this part will end in one of two ways:
1.) The other gods agree to give equal rights and import to the goblins, Redcloak and the Dark One agree to stop... right as Xykon either finds the gate, or walks in on them to announce he found the gate.
2.) The other gods agree to give equal rights and import to the goblins, Redcloak agrees to stop... but when he contacts the Dark One, the god is too mad that things are over so "easily" and wants more.

And there's still the possibility of
3.): The OotS act like an adventuring party and manage to ruin the entire thing on the verge of success.

Not to mention the option of “the other gods refuse Redcloak’s demands”. Thor doesn’t really have a lot of support from the rest of them.

I think Xykon would be at a disadvantage against the combination of the Order, Redcloak, and MITD. And while he’s a serious threat in his own right, he can’t make any use of the Gate without Redcloak.

[Ezekiel]

To be honest, I kind of like Hobgobbostan

[SlashDash]

I think I'd still prefer living my life in dangerous mine work than living my life being hunted by another species for xp, tbh.

It's not being in a mine that's the issue with dwarves. Remember the whole point of the last book? It's the whole "die without honor and go to Hel" schtick.

Seriously 5 people just died in a gas leak accident and had to suffer for all of eternity if Sigdi hadn't randomly been there to save their souls...




That dialog was fantastic. Love the exchange.

I have to say, I'm with Redcloak on this one. Gobtoppia stays put. Hinjo already settled down in a new land.

Besides, they deserve some form of restitution. I could see an agreement that at the very least, Redcloak has to release all the human slaves they have but keep the lands.

[dancrilis]

Nice strip - still unsure how much of Redcloaks concerns are legitimate and how much are him buying the propaganda though.

[Baelzar]

This can't last. Expect either the party to swoop in to "save" Durkon, Xykon walking in to crash the little tea time....or both.

[Fyraltari]

YES!!

IT’S TIME!!

Also, confirmation that Redcloak’s demands really are for equality, not world conquest.

Heh, I'll believe it when he actually stands down after getting a fair share.
There's also the question of how exactly "what Redcloak wants" and "what the Dark One wants" overlap.

Also, it's neat that Redcloak basically confirms that Orcs are just socially accepted in the world, with a very different dynamic than you'd see in other settings. There might have been confirmation about that elsewhere, but I think for the most part we've only seen Half-Orcs treated casually.

On the Origin of PCs p43 to 46 shows that Orcs are very much not allowed "everywhere" and Good Deeds gone Unpunished p37 and 46 show anti-half-Orc prejudice.

They’re lucky it’s a pre-internet society, or they’d all be living in Gobby McGobface by now!

Hahahaha! True.

[Iakus]

I think I've been watching too much Babylon 5 lately, because when Durkon kept asking what Redclok what he wants, I just kept hearing Mr Morden asking that question...

[Dragonus45]

The is a sharp insight. Unfortunately, I doubt Redcloak fully understands the implications of his actual desires and goals. True equality would be all creatures of type Humanoid, especially goblins, being PC races that live in cities. But Redcloak is grasping onto Goblotopia, for sounds reasons, and wants something more, too. I doubt he sees that the "something more" has deep implications, that may include giving up Goblotopia in the long run.

It turns out that the Real World and WotC have caught up to the central moral vision of this comic. Because to truly scrub D&D material of certain controversial elements will IMNSHO require a revamp of all Humanoids to be on a more equal footing.

I had been thinking the single best thing he could do might be to willingly surrender Azure city for a vow from the paladins of the Sapphire Guard alongside the leadership of Azure City to be Gobotopia's allies and defend them from other nations so long as it is just. As we have seen they thoroughly keep to their word and it could create some staunch allies and advocates almost literally forever. The idea of bargaining goblin souls into other gods pockets never occurred to me, although the TDO would never agree to that so its probably off the table entirely and forever. Much like how my plan would never work, because due to his personal history with the guard and his "what's mine is mine, what's yours is negotiable" mindset he probably could never actually agree to anything that ever concedes the city.

[Spoomeister]

I think I've been watching too much Babylon 5 lately, because when Durkon kept asking what Redclok what he wants, I just kept hearing Mr Morden asking that question...

No such thing as watching too much B5, consider where we are. :)

[NobleCuriosity]

On the Origin of PCs p43 to 46 shows that Orcs are very much not allowed "everywhere" and Good Deeds gone Unpunished p37 and 46 show anti-half-Orc prejudice.

Yeah, Orcs are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but all that stuff. Therkla also had to put up with several racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”

It's not being in a mine that's the issue with dwarves. Remember the whole point of the last book? It's the whole "die without honor and go to Hel" schtick.

Seriously 5 people just died in a gas leak accident and had to suffer for all of eternity if Sigdi hadn't randomly been there to save their souls...

That is an amazing point that ups my respect for Durkon just "Uh-huh"ing that jab even more.

[Lord Torath]

How did Hobgobstan lose?

Easy! It was never even an option! Hobgobbostan, on the other hand...

[Dragonus45]

but it was stated before that they DON'T have allies, at least none willing to help them take back their home. the best they could get were a few small Elven squads.

And this was before they got their current island, which they have now, and have already begun settling. It just doesn't make any sense to force two civilizations to pack up and move out, leaving one homeless and an established island abandoned, when you could just leave both of them as they are and be fine.

They could certainly arrange for Gobbotopia to release their ensalved human populations and let any resistance members leave the city peacefully, maybe return items and furniture to the families that originally owned them, but i don't see why the land would need to be given up. Do the Azurites even have the numbers needed to populate a city like that any more?

They don't have military allies, at the moment. but they have plenty of nations sympathetic to them and happy to trade with them and assist their efforts to rebuild or harass the goblins. As shown by the Elven strike squad assisting the resistance. And why wouldn't it make sense for people to want to regain their stolen homeland and free their enslaved kinsman to take vengeance on the people who conquered them? Sure it's probably not the best idea overall but it is a reasonable one. And yes they could still populate the city... unless the goblins got a lot more into the whole genocide thing on their captured slaves and started hunting down all the escaping refugees they could find then I thought they did. In which case all bets are off anyways and I don't even want to pretend to hear arguments about them having a moral let to stand on keeping the place.

It's not being in a mine that's the issue with dwarves.

Sure it is, it's easy to point at dwarves and say they had it easy with all that baren rocky mountainous terrain they live in by saying they have a lot of natural resources anyways. When you forget that even for a race with natural inbuilt advantages mining is difficult, dangerous, deadly, work and not living life easy mode at all.

[Spoomeister]

It's remarkable to me that this part of the years-in-the-making story came along, just as questions similar to what One-Eye and Durkon are debating are coming up in the real world re: D&D.

Fantastic bit of timing there, and OOTS/Rich has been talking about aspects of this for years so Rich definitely has some street cred backing him up.

Like others have said here, now I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Redcloak and Durkon are gonna get interrupted just as they start to get somewhere, by someone pretty soon, I'm betting.

[Schroeswald]

It turns out that the Real World and WotC have caught up to the central moral vision of this comic. Because to truly scrub D&D material of certain controversial elements will IMNSHO require a revamp of all Humanoids to be on a more equal footing.

Yeah, as I saw the conversation around these ideas start up recently I remembered how Rich has been talking about this for 13 years and just now, finally, is it becoming a topic of conversation that is, maybe not mainstream but in a stream beyond OOTS.

[t209]

Like the strip, seems that Rich might have glanced my discussion about “what about Orcs, Lizardfolks, Kobolds, and non Goblin races who doesn’t seem to have animosity or grudges against PC races?”.
Aka Goblins being short end even by monster standards.

Yeah, as I saw the conversation around these ideas start up recently I remembered how Rich has been talking about this for 13 years and just now, finally, is it becoming a topic of conversation that is, maybe not mainstream but in a stream beyond OOTS.

Same with my RP group too, which the DM wanted to make “monster races” as propaganda by civilized races for his campaign setting.
Part of me lean more on “Late Antiquity Germans and Romans” relations (like some tribes as enemies but some tribes as Roman vassals).

[Malfarian]

One of the best strips in years!

Just wonderful, thank you!

[mjasghar]

The portrayal of orcs has varied a lot in d&d
Initially almost human like which allowed half orcs as a viable race. Then they started drawing them as much more monstrous - either with oversized heads and/or hunched over and over muscled. Their colour was also turned to explicitly green as opposed to the more brown yellow.
And then there’s the issue that half orcs and other such half humanoid (as opposed to half elf or dwarf etc) unions were usually insinuated as being due to rape of female humans.

[t209]

And then there’s the issue that half orcs and other such half humanoid (as opposed to half elf or dwarf etc) unions were usually insinuated as being due to rape of female humans.

*cough* Tanis Half-Elven from Dragonlance, at least before retcon.

[WindStruck]

This really makes me wonder something... All the gods created goblins just to be abused and have a hard life?

Goblins had no gods to worship, protect, or guide them before the Dark One?

I think this has to be false... I'm not certain, but I am starting to suspect a dark theme with some evil gods goblins may have worshipped before. More souls = more power and sustenance right? So the evil gods goblins worshiped probably just engineered them into leading violent, short lives all for the sake of garnering more souls.

[mjasghar]

There’s the whole elves and racial depictions in fantasy as well
Shadowrun and earthdawn were the leaders in breaking that - ironically because their elves weren’t actually elves

[Yuki Akuma]

Uh... why wouldn't he?

It's been specifically stated in comic that Thor has seen gods with much more support and time to gain power that didn't survive the time spent waiting for the Snarl to calm down so they could build a new world.

The TDO is gonna starve if the gods destroy the world.

[Fyraltari]

What Redcloak really wants is for Goblin souls to be accepted into other afterlives according to alignment, not just the Dark One. Once the other Gods take Goblin souls, they will automatically value them.

That's not how ot works. Gods take the souls of their followers (barring the whole Hel/dwarf situation), unaffiliated people like the greenhilts go to the afterlives that matches their alignment. Prior to the Dark One's apotheosis al goblins went to their alignment's plane, now some of them go to him. There is evidence either in-comic or in rich's commets that I know about that points toward a god refusing the soul of a goblin that would have decided to worship them.

but it was stated before that they DON'T have allies, at least none willing to help them take back their home. the best they could get were a few small Elven squads.

Allies willing to take on Xykon. The hobgoblin army on its own might be a different story.

I think I've been watching too much Babylon 5 lately, because when Durkon kept asking what Redclok what he wants, I just kept hearing Mr Morden asking that question...

That's not fair, Morden and Durkon are nothing alike! One has deicded to surrender their free will to be the mouthpiece of million-year old inhuman creatures with mysterious powers and mindset and th other is a human working for the Shadows.

However, I don’t think what we’ve seen supports that Orcs are fully socially accepted. They are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but Therkla had to put up with a lot of racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”

On the Origin of PCs p43 to 46 shows that Orcs are very much not allowed "everywhere" and Good Deeds gone Unpunished p37 and 46 show anti-half-Orc prejudice.

Yeah, Orcs are definitely treated better than goblins (for example, the Azure city exiles tries to negotiate with the orc chieftains, not just stab them), but all that stuff. Therkla also had to put up with several racist jabs in “Spoiler alert.”

Did you just ctrl+C/Ctrl+V your comment?

[Xlsfd]

Not directly related to this strip, but... Does Xykon still have his Ring of Positive Plane Protection or was it lost/destroyed when Roy threw him into Dorukan's gate? After all, Redcloak notably does not hit Xykon with "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" in the last panel of #1040.

[understatement]

Not directly related to this strip, but... Does Xykon still have his Ring of Positive Plane Protection or was it lost/destroyed when Roy threw him into Dorukan's gate? After all, Redcloak notably does not hit Xykon with "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" in the last panel of #1040.

Cure Wounds hurt the undead, and in #1041 Redcloak heals him with an Inflict.

Also, Xykon mentions spending hours making magical items in Azure City.

This really makes me wonder something... All the gods created goblins just to be abused and have a hard life?

Goblins had no gods to worship, protect, or guide them before the Dark One?

I think this has to be false... I'm not certain, but I am starting to suspect a dark theme with some evil gods goblins may have worshipped before. More souls = more power and sustenance right? So the evil gods goblins worshiped probably just engineered them into leading violent, short lives all for the sake of garnering more souls.

The goblins didn't worship anyone before the Dark One. I can 99% swear that the Giant has stated this, but I'm not sure where I could find the quote.

[Zombimode]

Like the strip, seems that Rich might have glanced my discussion about “what about Orcs, Lizardfolks, Kobolds, and non Goblin races who doesn’t seem to have animosity or grudges against PC races?”.
Aka Goblins being short end even by monster standards.

Well, that is certainly one conclusion one could draw.
Another one would be that maybe the "non-PC races were just created to be XP fodder" narrative is not entirely correct.