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2020-07-28, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Rich is a huge Babylon 5 fan, you know. In fact, that's where "Giant in the Playground" comes from (it's a reference to a quote from Sheridan about the Vorlons and the Shadows).
So I wouldn't be surprised if that's intentional in some way. Though it's not easy to draw a line between Durkon and Morden. (Edit: And while I was writing this post, Fyaltari went and did it.)Last edited by Dausuul; 2020-07-28 at 01:04 PM.
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2020-07-28, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
If it goes anywhere it has to go south, since they are at the North Pole. So the answer is: it has to go south.
I don't think so. Redcloak is a PC, or at least an NPC build like a PC, and he levels up over time.
"The Goblins' Republic of Goblins" would be referred to as GRoG. As an old Navy man and all around fan of pirates in my adventure stories, I approve.
Banana can confirm this, but he has already indicated that he won't.
Not seeing that as viable. The Goblins and Hobgoblins won that city/land fair and square, and Hinjo is starting a new kingdom across the sea. I see no reason for that offer to be considered.
Ooh, nice catch.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-07-28 at 01:07 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-07-28, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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2020-07-28, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Xykon still has Dorukan's circlet of Cloister so I would say yes. Even if he hadn't anyway, he's had ample poortunity to make another, just in case.
To the rescue!
It just takes a mountain of bad faith! Also, Fyraltari.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-07-28, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Really, it should be draw a line between Thor and the Vorlons, or between TDO and the Shadows.
Wait, does that mean Roy is Sheridan?
Hmm V would be Delenn (who, in the first draft, changed gender at same time as race).
Haley would be Ivanova.
Belkar could any of many people, maybe Garibaldi, maybe G'Kar.
Elan would be Vir Cotto.
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2020-07-28, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
This is going far too well. Something has to go very, very wrong soon.
Wolfen Houndog - The World in Revolt (4e)
The Mythic Warrior, a 3.5 base class that severs limbs and sunders armor
The Nameless One, converted to 3.5 and 5e
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2020-07-28, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Because conquered peoples don’t tend to just roll over and give up what’s theirs without a fight, Hinjo’s know kingdom has explicit intentions to retake the city, and the likely aren’t going to stop trying ever. Also with Red Cloak and X gone they have a real chance at success.
Thanks to Linklele for my new avatar!
If i had superpowers. I would go to conventions dressed as myself, and see if i got complimented on my authenticity.
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2020-07-28, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2020
Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
As luck would have it, the page that was so desperately needed a couple weeks back to act as proof for both sides of an argument on a discussion thread pops up! Really good comic. Love that jab from Redcloak regarding riches and specifically jewels - anyone else would have blown up at that, from what we've seen about Durkon's background and lifestyle, but Durkon does what's needed to be done.
I keep faffing on about the art these days, but I was re-reading some DSTP strips a couple of days ago and I just love how much more of the body language and movement of the characters can been shown through the UD and further on artstyle. Durkon using 3 of his 6 fingers to count, Redcloak slamming his hands down on the table, his balled fist when talking . . . 'tis good, folks.I draw, and I write sometimes! Drow paladin avatar by me. They/Them
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2020-07-28, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-07-28, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Alamogordo
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Wildstag; 2020-07-28 at 01:25 PM.
Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2020-07-28, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Rich tries to compress entire arcs from prequels into a few strips now and again ... such as this one. (I mentioned that in my first post in this thread). See also the compression of Durkon getting thrown out of Dwarfland in UD - it had a couple of strips in Origin of the PCs, another prequel.
Honestly, as I see it, brevity doesn't get the story across as well as the extended narrative in the optional material does.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-07-28 at 01:25 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-07-28, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- Alamogordo
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Except it clearly doesn't work as well here, since it comes off more as "orcs are basically treated as equal" as opposed to "They're just not killed on sight" as print-story readers are indicating.
And sure, that could just be argued away as "Redcloak's bias towards those setting details", but it's not a great argument. The Durkon bit works well enough as is, just because it doesn't seem to me like the portrayal in the webcomic runs counter to the information provided in print-only stories.Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2020-07-28, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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- California
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
R: We want equality
D: ... Can you be a bit more specific?
R: More specific than equality?
*screams/cries out in minority*
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2020-07-28, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Not gonna disagree. A lot is lost in the 'brevity' version.
The Durkon bit works well enough as is, just because it doesn't seem to me like the portrayal in the webcomic runs counter to the information provided in print-only stories.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-07-28 at 01:30 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-07-28, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2010
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Excluding him from that spell doesn't prove anything one way or another - even if X still has the ring, it would just mean the spell wouldn't do anything, so there's no reason to include him in it either way.
Yeah, if the Twelve have any sense they'll cut their losses and cede Gobbotopia. The other gods can pay for their complicity in making a sapient race only to oppress it by having their nations collectively absorb/support the remaining Azurites. But Durkon should abandon the "what about Azure City" line of inquiry immediately, that city is gone.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2020-07-28, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Having been on the receiving end of "you are a [blank] and led a privileged life, you wouldn't understand" a few times, it is both one of the best ways to completely negate someone's participation in your discussion and to ensure that they are your enemy forever. I suspect that Durkon is one of the few people who can nevertheless continue to negotiate. I also expect him at some point to have Elan show Red Cloak just how wrong about Durkon's life he is. Which is not to say that Red Cloak is wrong that Durkon's life was easier (since Durkon didn't watch his entire family get slaughtered in front of him), just that Red Cloak doesn't understand everything that went in to Durkon getting to where he is and might be singing a different tune if he did.
I think what Red Cloak wants is for Azure City to be told "too bad, you can't take it back even if you are able."
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2020-07-28, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
You must be careful with a statement like that. Red Cloak is speaking for Goblins and thus Durkon is speaking for Dwarfs.
Red Cloak is as much an individual as Durkon is an individual, each with a life and identity.
I don't know if you've read Start of Darkness, but if not, you are missing a crucial point that I will not spoil for you :)
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2020-07-28, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Probably.
But we can already see a proverbial cliff looming up. Redcloak wants Goblotopia and guarantees for both Goblotopia and goblins in general. (I believe that is actually a very reasonable position, but my opinion does not matter here.)
Either Durkon agrees or he does not.
If Durkon agrees, then what? Durkon cannot make any guarantees. Thor cannot make any guarantees. Or, if they can, it requires certain negotiations. So this ends with Redcloak seeing him off with a "Get back to me when both Hinjo and Thor sign the contract in blood." And then the battle with the Order will begin within a few days.
If Durkon does not agree, then what? That is even less auspicious.
Redcloak is not going to pause his plan without something concrete. At the very minimum, he will need to perceive Goblotopia slightly better off than he sees the situation now.
That Redcloak does not understand the danger to TDO is unfortunate. But providing information that presumably TDO cannot confirm will look like a gambit, and not an honest point. Even if Redcloak perceives Durkon himself as entirely honest, Durkon may be manipulated by his gods with a fairy tale.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2020-07-28, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-07-28, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
RC is correct. Going on a killing rampage pissed off the human/elves/dwarves/&c, but that's how they got a god, as well as how they got a metropolis.
Also, the approach the RC is taking is inherently noble. Much like the golems of Discworld, he wants them to bootstrap themselves to parity. Durkon is equally correct that parity can take many forms.
Fascinating to see where this goes. I mean, of course south. But as noted, they're at the north pole. Every direction is south.
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2020-07-28, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-07-28, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-07-28, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Dragonus45; 2020-07-28 at 02:56 PM.
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2020-07-28, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
This kind of puts The Dark One's version of the creation of the Goblin races in doubt. If this had been the second world, TDO's version might be more believable. But the gods have had hundreds of thousands - possibly millions or billions - of worlds to practice on before.
After all, TDO did not exist when the goblin races were created. How much can we trust Red Cloak's retelling of TDO's retelling of events neither of them witnessed first-hand?Spoiler: I should probably spoiler this plot point from Start of DarknessIs this really the first one where they realized their clerics couldn't do anything but make Good Berries unless they created a bunch of XP-fodder races?Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season
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2020-07-28, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Dragonus45: I am unclear why teeth (dentition) are relevant to these negotiations.
LT:
SpoilerDruids make goodberries. Or clerics w/ certain domains.
But yeah, we don't really know where TDO got the information that goblinoids are scrub races. The impression I get is that it was no big secret among the gods, and he picked it up in casual discussion. Until told otherwise, I am assuming that most of the facts in the crayons strips are correct, simply because they are hard to verify. If the author is tricking us, so be it. We will learn more when he reveals the twist.
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2020-07-28, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
As others, now I'm also waiting for the outside factor to crash this party! I know it's kind of meta-thinking, that, because it's going well, something bad HAS to happen, as Durkon and Redcloak are handling the talking quite well.
Redcloak and Durkon are handling things pretty well. Sure, some things have been said and some things that could have been made more clear haven't been... but they're both giving each other a chance to talk and a chance to explain their meaning. If these two characters continue to behave like this they'll work out a solution.
Which leads me to be expecting an interruption any minute now because "that just doesn't happen", hah. Xykon wandering in or the party coming in swords-swinging both come to mind.
At the same time... I almost want to see two characters from completely opposite sides who have oft been the "reasonable ones" actually demonstrate that and come to a shared solution to a problem via talking.... yet, so much of my instincts on "where stories tend to go" says something "has" to happen to stop that...!
What I'm also curious about is which is more important to Redcloak: the status of Goblinkind, or the status of Dark One. Right now he sees them both as the same thing (and they may well actually be, given the Dark One is a god for and by Goblinkind)... but Dwarves don't "need" Thor specifically, for instance. I kinda wonder which way he'd swing if those interests become different - he's very much interested in bettering Goblins but he's also the high cleric of his god. Like, what if hypothetically Redcloak and Durkon come to some terms which work out quite well for the Goblins... but the Dark One rejects them? Durkon after all probably has a better idea of what Thor would find acceptable here than Redcloak does for the Dark One, given the prior page.
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2020-07-28, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Durkon and Redcloak are actually having a genuine, well-reasoned discussion. I'm wondering what's going to go wrong because right now they seem like they should be able to come to a compromise.
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2020-07-28, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Awesome fantasy material. Fortunately we don't have unjust gods meddling in our world so we don't have these kinds of issues
But really, what a fantastic strip! :) Thank you, Giant!And on thaere hwíle
Héo dréag thá losinga
Ealra thinga the héo forléas
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2020-07-28, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
And importantly, Durkon didn't use it as a chance to "stop listening". He didn't just say "be more specific... NEXT TIME!" and walk away from the table; instead he's staying there and actively helping figure out what the 'more specific' actually means to Redcloak, rather than using it as a way to deny the validity of Redcloak's needs.
Last edited by Corseth; 2020-07-28 at 02:06 PM.
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2020-07-28, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread
Redcloak: "You wouldn't be sitting at this table if I hadn't conquered Azure City."
Durkon: "I might. I made this table. How d'ye know I don't sit here all t'time?"