OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[Zombimode]

Demons are people - they can be reasoned with, form relationships with other creatures etc.

I think you may be missing the point here. Whether or not a particular setting has a class of creatures that are called "demons" that have the qualities you describe is pretty immaterial for the distinction of a class of creatures that are very much not people. In many settings such creatures are called demons so it is a fitting term.

No, in the OOTSverse it is canon that this world was created as a D&D kitchen-sink fantasy world, with goblins as XP-fodder for adventurers to sharpen their swords on.

Can you back that up?

[Sinewmire]

Uuuugh, man this is tense. It feels like the possibility for something really good is slowly tip-toeing across a rickety bridge. I can't help but feel it's gonna collapse into a pit of further conflict, and that threat is implicit in every word. I really *want* redcloak to see sense.

Good stuff, Giant.

[dancrilis]

I think you may be missing the point here. Whether or not a particular setting has a class of creatures that are called "demons" that have the qualities you describe is pretty immaterial for the distinction of a class of creatures that are very much not people. In many settings such creatures are called demons so it is a fitting term.

I believe I got what they meant 'this is an evil creature that exists in the game to be killed' vs 'this is a evil creature who can be spoken to and reasoned with' (effectively), however with the exception of mindless evil creatures and creature regardless of how evil it is could in theory be reasoned with and might change its ways.
DnD has good Demons/Illithids for instance.

Can you back that up?

That is what Redcloak said in 1208 (panel 15).
Also:

Spoiler: SOD

Show

That is what Redcloak said in SOD.

A lot of people take Redcloak at his word on that despite neither him nor anyone he knows being present for the act - I am a bit more dubious.

If you mean the 'D&D kitchen-sink fantasy world' bit then Thor kindof says it here (panel 7).

[Squire Doodad]

Can you back that up?

Thor himself has said that the world is meant to be a self-aware stick figure fantasy parody, see Durkon meeting Thor in person.

The Dark One has claimed that goblins were meant to be XP fodder, and while it would make sense we don't have any actual evidence to say it is for certain the case. They don't have any gods, but other monster races also don't have gods associated with them and have decent lives relative to the other races - see the Lizardfolk of the Western Continent, for instance. However, we also have nothing to say it's definitely not the case, and in either situation the goblins have been subject to definite discrimination and rampant bloodshed.

You can easily contest the XP fodder point, but that's not what's really important here.

[Psyren]

I *LOVE* how Redcloak BELIEVES Gobbotopia is very well without his strict supervision. How he thinks that now that he conquered and gave it to his people, it will prosper, create itself rules, an echonomical system and honest politics.

I'm pretty sure that when he dies, in the end of the book, the last thing he'll see is that not every goblinoid is as thoughtful as he is.

His regret will be his last feeling on this plane.

Uhhhh... somehow I think that the Giant ending the story with all the non-goblins and their deities yelling "See! We were right to be racist speciesist all along! Kill-on-sight sapient fodder races are a great idea!" is not the most likely of outcomes. Especially given the direction 5e is moving the game in, and Rich's public thoughts on that shift.

No I meant exactly what I said, context. Because sometimes when I’m running a game that isn’t about about complex issues like those, or like the ones brought in OOTS, the goblins a really are just all dumb evil creatures who’s lives bring no value to the world so my party can go do political intrigue or punch out mind flayers elsewhere. Not all fictional monstrous races or demihumans or goblinoids are created equal across all campaigns.

You can still run a campaign where the party fights and kills goblins without holding a tribunal first. Just make it clear that it's not because they're goblins - just like you would with any other evil humanoid enemy. (And given the historical ease with which we've been allowed to slaughter them en masse, maybe we should all give the goblins and orcs a break for awhile even if we have the perfect justification for killing this set of them.

Is this all leading up to Goblins being a primary playable race in the next edition of D&D?

Well, why not? They are in PF2.

[Wraithfighter]

What's interesting here to me is how Durkon's actively avoiding trying to get into an argument with Redcloak. He does push hard against the whole "gods are afraid" bit, but then immediately goes "Good news, you can still get a lot out of this!". When Redcloak assumes that Durkon grew up with everything handed to him by his gods, you can see his annoyance but he lets it slide. He doesn't say "You're already equal!", but rather asks why Redcloak doesn't see them as equal. He's repeatedly couching everything in as diplomatic and neutral a tone as he can manage, really seeming to try to understand where Redcloak's coming from and what he wants.

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

I really do think, though, that this isn't the hard part. This is the easy part.

The hard part will be convincing the gods. The Dark One taking a peaceful solution? The other gods accepting a Pantheon of One into their power system and encouraging acceptance of the Goblins in their followers? They're the ones with the real power here...

[Squire Doodad]

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

I think going "you can keep Gobbotopia, we'll talk about the fine points later" would work for now. Assuming it ends well, writing out the fine points as being something like "a pair of statues to represent the goblins and the humans who both have called it home, and make the former slaves part of the city/move to New Azure City instead" would probably appease both sides.

[Roland Itiative]

The fact they actually made great strides in reaching a middle ground makes it seem like the inevitable conflict reignition is just around the corner. I sure hope it's not caused by Roy coming swords-blazing.

[understatement]

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

I really do think, though, that this isn't the hard part. This is the easy part.

Considering Durkon is not the diplomat for Azure City, nor one of its leaders, how would he be able to guarantee Redcloak the city?

[JT]

He should also ask that goblins get added to the PHB as a playable race.

Maybe just an auxiliary book? It'd be easier than reprinting the whole PHB.

[Wizard_Lizard]

pretty good strip I like where it's going.

[Wraithfighter]

Considering Durkon is not the diplomat for Azure City, nor one of its leaders, how would he be able to guarantee Redcloak the city?

The spell "Sending", he could contact Hinjo and clear it with him. It'd be hard to deliver exact terms in 25 words, but could get the jist across. Something like:

"Can stop Xykon and Snarl. Deal with Redcloak. Goblins keep Azure City but free slaves. Equality for Goblins. My last Sending, if questions cast Sending".

[Squire Doodad]

The fact they actually made great strides in reaching a middle ground makes it seem like the inevitable conflict reignition is just around the corner. I sure hope it's not caused by Roy coming swords-blazing.

I'm going to guess it's ending with Xykon being about to return, leading to Durkon vanishing before he's revealed.

[Frozenstep]

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

I'm not so sure about that. Azure City isn't the Order's to just give away. I think the sapphire guard still function under the idea that they'll take back their city someday. Giving that up is going to be hard on them. Maybe I can see the paladins deciding it's for the greater good, but we might see another power struggle as the nobles are already probably not happy with Hinjo.

But also, Azure City might be a major negotiation hurdle for the twelve gods. Rat was a supporter of TDO originally, but he's apparently furious over Azure City. That might be a problem.

[understatement]

The spell "Sending", he could contact Hinjo and clear it with him. It'd be hard to deliver exact terms in 25 words, but could get the jist across. Something like:

"Can stop Xykon and Snarl. Deal with Redcloak. Goblins keep Azure City but free slaves. Equality for Goblins. My last Sending, if questions cast Sending".

I am unsure about the effectiveness of using 25 words for diplomacy between two groups that have hated each other for decades.

I'm going to guess it's ending with Xykon being about to return, leading to Durkon vanishing before he's revealed.

It takes Durkon five rounds to become mist, which doesn't look too good. Also, I don't think Redcloak would risk the whole table business if he knew Xykon was returning soon.

"Missing Minrah Mystery" -- still running since #1204.

[carrion pigeons]

The problem I see is that if Durkon is negotiating on behalf of Thor, then to be doing it in good faith means basically conceding everything RC cares about. RC's concerns are so incredibly different in scope compared to the gods' that this entire existence doesn't really matter. If you consider some of the inter-god politics that have already canonically been going on, you can see that they pretty much treat anything on the level of a single reality as a game, and not one that ultimately matters for much of anything. The existence and, ideally, the cooperation of TDO is something they'd sacrifice *real* things for, so the prospect of sacrificing position in a trivial stick figure universe won't mean anything to them.

I don't know how much of that fact has really registered with Durkon yet, or whether it will even end up mattering to him, but in any case, the *rest* of the Order will care about the state this universe is left in much more than any of the gods will. I kind of feel like this places the Order in the position of being the natural antagonists for the way this story "should" go, in order to resolve the main conflicts at its center.

[johnbragg]

Can you back that up?

Apparently not, I'd confused The Dark One's account with Word of Giant

[Lycan999]

You can still run a campaign where the party fights and kills goblins without holding a tribunal first. Just make it clear that it's not because they're goblins - just like you would with any other evil humanoid enemy. (And given the historical ease with which we've been allowed to slaughter them en masse, maybe we should all give the goblins and orcs a break for awhile even if we have the perfect justification for killing this set of them.

Why do I have to make it clear in my campaign that you can't kill goblins because they are goblins? In OOTSverse goblins are rational creatures and moral actors capable of making ethical decisions with the same degree of freedom that humans are. The Giant has essentially made it clear that "racial alignments" in his world are due to wide reaching cultural factors and it is possible for individuals to go against the grain. But it is perfectly possible for other worlds/campaign settings to have species, even humanoid ones, that do not have the same degree of moral freedom that humans have.

This is often a taboo topic because real world racists have often made that claim about whichever race they are claiming is inferior (usually all of the ones except their own), using it to justify mass atrocities. That is reprehensible because we know that all humans have the same amount of freedom when it comes to moral reasoning, but this isn't assured when dealing with a completely different species. Others have already mentioned Mind Flayers and Gnolls as examples of this already existing in the D&D universe. Humans are the way they are because the way they evolved, with out history of determining our psychological and moral limitations. In particular our communal nature probably had a significant effect on our development of empathy, and being omnivores allowed us to adopt agriculture. Different species may have different ethical capabilities as a result.

Take Gnolls for example. Gnolls are carnivores that are based on hyenas so scavengers that also pray on the old, injured, and sickly. Socially they exist in small, highly territorial packs. Why would they ever develop empathy like humans did? Wouldn't it be more beneficial for a Gnoll to instinctively view every creature as either something to be exploited or avoided? Bullying and brutality wouldn't become societal norms, they would become evolutionary norms for their species. The concept of cooperation wouldn't ever develop past the idea that putting up for a few of your time lets you take down bigger pray and might be worth sharing some loot (that you still fight over). Even if you took such a Gnoll from birth and tried to educate it in a more "enlightened" society it might learn to blend in and mimic social norms but it simply wouldn't have the capacity to become "good" in the normal sense. Imagine the worst cases of Antisocial Personality Disorder in humans (Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer), amplify it, and make it a racial trait for an entire species. Such creatures would warrant "kill on sight" for what they are.

For more extreme examples look at the Tyranids and Orks from 40k. Both are highly rational species (the Tyranid hive mind makes a human look like an amoeba in comparison and most Ork Warbosses are a lot smarter than they look, particularly the Beast). They also fall into the "exterminatus" category for what they are, because they simply are incompatible with peaceful human existence. The Tyranid want to eat everything and the Orks want MORE DAKKA, and that is just the way they are. So while simply labeling something as "evil" may be an oversimplification, labeling something as kill on sight isn't always a moral simplification.

[Wraithfighter]

I am unsure about the effectiveness of using 25 words for diplomacy between two groups that have hated each other for decades.

Not very effective, but it's *an* option, and more than they'd have otherwise. Right now, the only person who can negotiate with Redcloak is Durkon, sometimes diplomacy requires the right people in the right place at the right time going beyond the authority they've actually been granted (see also the Louisiana Purchase).

Also why you lead with it being a way to stop the Snarl, the entire reason the Sapphire Guard was formed in the first place. But no, they're not going to be hammer out a strong, long-term deal over a Sending. But a general acceptance of an agreement in principle, with an understanding that there will be crap to hash out later on (Hinjo formally ceding the city to the Goblins would do a *lot* to help the fledgling nation remain unattacked, so there's more things that Redcloak would stand to get that he'd need to give things up for) is all that's needed for things right now, and Hinjo's a good enough leader that he can look past that personal animosity towards the greater good.

He is a Paladin, after all...

[The_Weirdo]

Niu will probably insist that Redcloak be punished as well if he isn’t dead by the point the Azurite are brought in, too.

Spoiler

Show

At which point Redcloak will ask her if having his own mother killed in front of him by the paladins of Niu's country is punishment enough.

Redcloak is being very reasonable on the list of demands (namely, the one demand he actually has). As for returning Azure City, sure, as soon as the Azurites undo what they did to Redcloak and his village. They are smart, industrious people, they can figure it out.

[johnbragg]

I am unsure about the effectiveness of using 25 words for diplomacy between two groups that have hated each other for decades.

Let me give it a shot

"The gods have agreed.
Peace between Azurites and Gobbotopia
They keep city.
You make peace, you get the captives."

[Kharannos]

Given that most of the inhabitants lived in a settlement that prospered, created itself rules, an economical system, and honest politics (I assume), I don't really think it's that much of a stretch.

Where's the assumption they could not sustain it coming from?

I really don't have evidence to back that up, it was just a hunch. Redcloak sounded so SURE everyhting would go fine with his absense, but I think keeping a whole city of that dimmension is way harder (and complex) than that settlement. As I said, i really don't have any evidence other than his speech in Gobbotopia and the talk "behind the stages" on the next pages, and his current talk with Durkon.

Uhhhh... somehow I think that the Giant ending the story with all the non-goblins and their deities yelling "See! We were right to be racist speciesist all along! Kill-on-sight sapient fodder races are a great idea!" is not the most likely of outcomes. Especially given the direction 5e is moving the game in, and Rich's public thoughts on that shift.

You can still run a campaign where the party fights and kills goblins without holding a tribunal first. Just make it clear that it's not because they're goblins - just like you would with any other evil humanoid enemy. (And given the historical ease with which we've been allowed to slaughter them en masse, maybe we should all give the goblins and orcs a break for awhile even if we have the perfect justification for killing this set of them.

Well, why not? They are in PF2.

I see your point, but I don't think that judging PRESENT TENSE goblin society is fair, since Redcloak's speech is all about "we've been that way from the start, because this is what was forced upon us".
I'm not saying Goblins would doom themselves, nor am I saying they are incompent, flawed or anything, but they have been shaped by their society that way for GENERATIONS. They've developed a whole new set of skills to survive, skills that Redcloak got from his cape, but the others haven't.
A lot of goblins and hobgoblins on Gobbotopia simply aren't aware of the whole thing Redcloak is doing. It is not their fault if Gobbotopia has a lot of problems. It is just how they were shaped by their world's society since day one.

I don't think this would prove that the Gods Racism is correct, it only proves Redcloak's point: that if they weren't hunted that way from the start, they would have a whole different society on this day, one that is able to be equal to the other (in Redcloak's perception of equality).
I just think that Redcloak ignores that fact and will, eventually, be confronted by it.

[johnbragg]

Edit: Niu will probably insist that Redcloak be punished as well if he isn’t dead by the point the Azurite are brought in, too.

Niu is in no position to insist on anything.

That position, specifically, being "on a different continent than Gobbotopia, with a smaller army than Gobbotopia, subject to an interdict of all divine magic if he launches a war to retake Azure City from the goblins of Gobbotopia".

[Gnome Alone]

Redcloak is a pretty sympathetic ruthless villain, aye? But anyone else wondering how "furth'r" would sound any different than "further"?

[Fanatic-Templar]

Of course, there is a row brewing about Azure City/Gobbotopia... but I don't think it's one that would be too harsh to resolve. The refugees from Azure City seem to have a new home that will sustain them, and they've been gone from the city long enough that they'd probably be grudgingly alright with letting the goblins keep it in lieu of being devoured by the Snarl or destroyed along with the world... at least, if Redcloak agrees to have all the slaves from the city freed and returned to their kin, which seems like something that Durkon would insist on and Redcloak might be amenable to, in exchange for everything else he's getting.

Don't know how the Twelve would feel about having part of their domain given to the followers of the Dark One by the Northern Pantheon. Guessing that wouldn't work.

Big issue here is that Durkon isn't even negotiating on behalf of the gods, he's negotiating on behalf of the Northern gods - if that.

The discussion so far has intimated that they're both willing to agree on the general outlook of the outcome, but nothing concrete has been put on the table yet.

I very much doubt that the central conflict of the story will be easily solved at the beginning of the book and only prevented by the incursion of a third party. I suspect once we get down to brass tacks this negotiation is going to go south pretty quickly. Azure City is only the first thing on the list.

[The_Weirdo]

Redcloak is a pretty sympathetic ruthless villain, aye? But anyone else wondering how "furth'r" would sound any different than "further"?

Well, the "e" is completely omitted, rather than just half-omitted, I would guess, or nearly whispered. It's oddly not too different from some aspects of my own accent in Brazilian Portuguese - I'm from Minas Gerais and one of the linguistic traits of my accent in Portuguese is skipping some letters at the end of words.

[chy03001]

Is it weird that I'm rooting for Red Cloak? Goblin has always been a race that I felt deserved to be a player race.

[Jacky720]

Let me give it a shot

"The gods have agreed.
Peace between Azurites and Gobbotopia
They keep city.
You make peace, you get the captives."

Ooh! Ooh! Let me try!

"Deal offered: Surrender Azure City, recognize goblin nation. Necessary for goblin's cooperation. Details later; Azurite slaves likely freed. Could save world. Counter? Look, 22 words!"

[understatement]

Ooh! Ooh! Let me try!

"Deal offered: Surrender Azure City, recognize goblin nation. Necessary for goblin's cooperation. Details later; Azurite slaves likely freed. Could save world. Counter? Look, 22 words!"

I'm not sure Redcloak is looking for Azurites (the group of people he hates the most) to verify a city he already views as rightfully his. The Azurites aren't really a threat anymore (they're thousands of miles away, for starters) and their recognition doesn't mean much.

Actually, I'm also not sure what Redcloak really wants. As Durkon says, good farmland and ore are concrete, but it looks like Redcloak wants the gods to specifically do something on the Material Plane, and I don't think the gods are capable of intervening.

[Wizard_Lizard]

Redcloak is a pretty sympathetic ruthless villain, aye? But anyone else wondering how "furth'r" would sound any different than "further"?

I'm thinking a Fuhrthruh sound, with the ending uh being a whispered inflection