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Thread: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
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2020-08-11, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
I had once proposed a monk sub-class that added Wisdom mod as extra damage on every hit and folks on here hated it so much I no longer try to create content. The hate isn't worth the effort. :(
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2020-08-11, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
We keep arguing about euclidian movement, but my game world is on a semi-spherical planet, so all in-game movement is non-euclidian. Please help!
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2020-08-11, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Diagonal with respect to what?
I'm not trying to move 100 forward and then 50 up, I'm going at an angle upwards 100 ft. Will I not be able to get at least 50 ft off the ground going at an angle? By Raw and Common Sense, yes, I can. Because I'm not moving orthogonally. I'm not going 1 ft up and then 1 ft over, I'm going 1 ft diagonally.
Now, if you want to enforce Pythagoras and have me calculate the exact angle of ascent I'd need to end up in the space I want to end up in (or really within 5 ft of the enemy) then I'll bring my graphing calculator to your game and try and remember how to calculate all of this. I'm sure watching me plug numbers into an equation will be riveting gameplay. But, at my table? I'm going to stick by the fact that there is no penalty for moving diagonally, and limit the amount of math we have to do at the table, because I find playing the game more fun than math homework.
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2020-08-11, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
But... Chase doesn't say variant on anything. Tecnically, it's RAW and to be used.
It's true that they aren't the only possible complications, but that's going to depend on the DM. The reference RAW is that table.
Max isn't saying diagonals don't exist unless you use a battlemap- they're saying the opposite. Unless you use the battlegrid, the monk is losing horizontal movement for the diagonal to get up the wall on the roof and then down.
The griffon flying presumably loses less movement.
Weird. That's... Something another class can do, so it's nothing strange.
In any case, I'm sorry to hear that. It shouldn't have happened.Last edited by Valmark; 2020-08-11 at 02:05 PM.
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2020-08-11, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Doesn't the whole DMG have a giant disclaimer on it saying "these are suggestions if you feel like using them"? I could have sworn it does.
I don't think any other class can do anything similar: adding +WIS on every attack, on up to four attacks per round (plus possible opportunity attack) is very strong compared to most of what's already in 5E. If you charged ki for it or limited to it 1 attack per turn it would be more 5E-idiomatic.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-11 at 02:31 PM.
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2020-08-11, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Of course it does- but that's the only reference we have to talk things without DM ruling.
Let's say we are a gaming group- who's the DM, they can rule homewever they want. But if we're talking out of that context we need to use that reference material because everybody will rule their own way out of there.
Which is good, don't misunderstand me- but we need that same measuring stick when we are talking out of the specific group.
Otherwise for example you could say that there is no limit on Dashes in a chase while I could say the opposite- your situation isn't comparable to mine. If either of us is the DM alright, but if neither is we need a common ground to discuss things on.
We can most certainly discard the chase rules altogether from the DGM though if we so wish and treat it as normally running after somebody, which eases the conditions for the monk (since they were getting impaired the most). Monk still comes out short by either getting the difficult terrain or having to climb up walls.
A warlock can do that twice/thrice depending on the build using Cha, and they get bigger dice (or have the potential to). Assuming life drinker (which implies Pact of the Blade).
With Eldritch Blast they add Cha up to four times at range and costs an invocation regadless of Pacts.Last edited by Valmark; 2020-08-11 at 02:56 PM.
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2020-08-11, 02:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Now see, this sort-of mystifies me; the monk's DPR is apparently ****, yet it's getting four attacks per round, which is (also apparently) a lot for 5e. When applying a flat damage mod to those attacks, it's 'too much'. So...what should be added to these four attacks per round to bring the monk's DPR up?
...and bring it up to what, for that matter; people get upset if you increase any one aspect's efficacy up to the point where it matches what they personally consider 'the specialist' (so for DPR it's fighter, control it's probably wizard, tanking it's druid/barbarian, utility it's bard, etc.), but it's already been made clear that the 'jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none' aspect isn't enough. Besides, many of those classes I just mentioned are all quite versatile, probably moreso than the monk (hell, the bard seems to be more 'master-of-all-trades', this edition). Monks need to be not only 'good' but 'the specialist' in something, and that something needs to be mechanically relevant...and no, "slightly increased movement speed" ain't it, and neither is "slightly easier to budget around lack of magic items"."Come play in the darkness with me."
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2020-08-11, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
I think RAW is important primarily because it's player-facing: there are lots of quirks in 5E that I just put up with because the cost/benefit ratio of explaining to the players that we do things differently here isn't worth the hassle. They signed up to play 5E so we'll play 5E, with only a limited number of changes documented in my house rules.
When it comes to DMing suggestions, none of that matters. The DMG may suggest that I might want to let players turn hostiles into friendlies with a Persuasion check, but I can see that's not a good fit for my game (and the math is wonky) so I ignore it. No harm no foul. The DMG may suggest chase rules which make high school athletes fall over in exhaustion after a short jog, but I can see those rules are terrible so I replace them with better rules--again, no harm no foul. On don't need to document for the players which DMG suggestions I take vs. ignore because those rules aren't aimed at players in the first place--nor do I need to document which MM creatures I reject or modify before using in my campaign.
I think the giant DMG disclaimer is very relevant.
It sounds like the people who get upset if you increase efficacy are not the same people who think being a Jack of All Trades is not good enough. Perhaps you cannot satisfy them both simultaneously.
Ah, I misunderstood then what you meant by "same thing." I thought you meant stacking Wisdom specifically. Agonizing Blast is just bringing Eldritch Blast up to parity with weapon attacks (it's good primarily for the control effects and the third and fourth beams at 11th/17th level), but Lifedrinker is more like what I understand the proposed subclass to be like: take your normal weapon damage (including Str/Dex) and add Cha on top of that. Lifedrinker is a 12th level ability and is impossible to get with four attacks per round, whereas samcifer's subclass sounded like it have out the +Wis bonus much earlier than 12th level (possibly 3rd), but understand now what you were referring to. (Don't forget the Bladesinger 14th level ability too, which adds +Int.) Thanks for clarifying.Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-08-11 at 03:24 PM.
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2020-08-11, 03:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
4e7/Fi2 is sorta the floor for damage monks. (Not due to 4e, it's the only monk with actual damage. We're just not dipping for ambusher +mark or other tricks here)
Fangs of the fire snake is pretty great. As is fighter 2 for dueling and surge.
When you hit for 6(1d6+1d10+2+mod) you hit good. (96 average) and hey look. 5th level spells on this list, and we can double cast them with surge in tier 3.
So wis to damage would need to be a tier 3 or higher ability but it would be fine there.
Folks are just wild around these parts and assume arbitrary roles. (Keep in mind that hexblade1/fi2/anythingX is going to shell out 88 damage average with a pair of uncommon wands at 3rd level.)Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2020-08-11 at 03:27 PM.
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2020-08-11, 03:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Seeing how many people rate the monk low in usefulness makes me want to run a game with just Monks, Rangers, and Sorcerers, the three most bemoaned classes (in terms of not meeting "standards") this edition.
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2020-08-11, 03:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Or, logically, you can assume they added that because in older editions it was a rule that it did cost more, and they wanted to make sure that people didn't feel obligated to use a system that no longer applied.
Not really, since Max's way is much much harder and requires a lot more math and effort, for incredibly minimal gains.
With respect to starting and ending position?
125 ft is reasonably close to 111.8?
And, actually, you are forgetting that to "reach" someone I only need to be within 5 ft of them, meaning I need to be in a "space" 95 away and 45 up. Which is 105' (your 2 for 1 rule is again adding distance to the movement, essentially the penalty they says doesn't exist, and would be 117.5 away. Which takes us from a single square that is in the range of a reach weapon to 15 ft away)
And if we start talking smaller distances, this becomes even more ridiculous.
if you want to move from one corner to another in a 30x30 room, that is IRL 42 ft, but since my "space" could be up to 4 ft away and I only need to be within 5 ft to interact with an object, the effective distance can be 33 ft.
But honestly, you are taking the lack of a rule as evidence of a rule existing. When, in the only time they explicitly talk about it, they specifically say not to use that rule. Frankly, this whole discussion is just reminding me why I hate trying to use Theater of the Mind. Range matters so much between reach, flight, and ranged attacks and I'm not going to take the time and effort to calculate the "real" distance when I've been told not to, especially if I'm using a method of gameplay meant to utilize the exact distances less, for ease of play.
So, of course the entire DMG is variant rules, but they must be RAW because we don't have any other rules?
That is because the "RAW" chase rules are just the rules for movement. "Chasing" someone is literally just running after them.
RAW is there is no limit on dashing. There is only a limit imposed by the Variant rules that you are saying are RAW.
Honestly, this discussion is giving me a headache.
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2020-08-11, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 03:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 03:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
I ran a one-shot for three Purple Dragon Knights and a Land Druid (forest). They did fine, at least numerically (strategic choices led the Land Druid into trouble). Games where only "bad" classes are allowed turn out to be pretty fun, because there's less opportunity cost. You aren't giving up a "good" class, it was just never an option.
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2020-08-11, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Well, here's a variation of that build that grants different things as I no longer remember what I had written...
The Way of the Wise Warrior
You have a keener insight into the ways of combat and the motives of others than most who follow the monastic traditions.
Lv 3:
Seeing the Truth:
You have advantage on all Insight checks you make when interacting with npcs and pcs.
Lv. 3:
Finding the Way:
Once per encounter, you may gain advantage on your attacks against a single target for one round. This ability refreshes on a short rest.
Warrior's Forethought:
You may take the Dodge or Dash action as a bonus action without needing to spend Ki to do so.
Lv. 6
Fist of the Wise:
You may add your Wisdom modifer as extra damage whenever you inflict damage to a foe using unarmed strikes or a weapon you are proficient with.
Lv. 11:
Wisdom of Warriors Past:
You can no longer be surprised. During a surprise round, you may act normally. You may also add a bonus to your initiative equal to your Wisdom modifier.
Lv. 17:
Wisdom of the Master Monks:
You may use your Flurry of Blows without spending Ki to do so.
Whenever you attempt to use Stunning Strike, you may spend one additional Ki to impose disadvantage to the target when they attempt to make a saving throw against it. If the target saves successfully, you regain 1 Ki Point (might make this to include a wisdom save to see if you regain that spent Ki point. Only 1 Ki pt. can be regained per round.)
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2020-08-11, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Yes, people aren't obligated to use grid movement. Out of that though diagonal counts normally.
Wait, the fact that it takes longer doesn't mean that it makes no sense.
The proposed rule 2/1 though while fast increases distances, true.
...yeah nothing to add there. Though 95/45 feet actually makes you farther then 5 ft. from 100/50. Don't worry about answering this, it's me getting compelled to run numbers, it doesn't matter that much.
Though I'm not making the math on the next example.
Attention: Max isn't taking the lack of a rule as a rule existing- they are taking the rule and applying it RAW. As in RAW from PHB. Which is supported by the fact that gridplay specifies ignoring diagonals increase in distance unless one wants.
And... We already agreed on the DMG not being RAW, dunno why bring that up.
Though I am mildly irritated by the fact that the DMG calls some things "Optional rules" now as if the rest wasn't
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2020-08-11, 04:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
I guess another way to frame the question is "what about the monk needs the most improving"? DPR? Tanking? Utility? Control? Something else?
"Come play in the darkness with me."
Thanks for the avatar, banjo1985!
Spoiler
I guess I'm a Neutral Good Human Wizard (4th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength- 14
Dexterity- 15
Constitution- 17
Intelligence- 20
Wisdom- 20
Charisma- 12
Take the 'What D&D Character am I?" Quiz!
Somehow I doubt the veracity of this quiz :P
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
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2020-08-11, 04:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
Lv. 3 abilities look fine, though just to keep it easier I'd make it Dash/Disengage (basically making it a free version of Step Of The Wind). It's not too much when compared to other features.
I'd switch level 6 and level 11. The level 6 feature is similar to other features that come online at levels 12 or 14 (Lifedrinker/song of victory or whatever it is called) while the initiative thing is comparable to features of lower levels (like the barbarian's dangers sense that makes them not surpriseable and gives advantage on initiative)
I wouldn't put ki recovery on the 17th feature, since it seems to impact more then the capstone which does a similar thing. Plus you have already removed costs by two features and a half.
Don't think I'd have any qualms on imposing disadvantage through ki as a DM, it's very similar to EK giving disadvantage on spells saving throws with an attack.
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2020-08-11, 04:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-11, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
That makes more sense, yes.
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2020-08-11, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
I personally don't think the monk "needs" improving but I'll fully admit it's not a class that everyone will enjoy.
That said if I had to pick one I'd go with Control. Just a small thing like allowing them to use Dex for Grapling/Shove attacks would be more then enough to give the monk some very strong control elements beyond spamming Stunning Strike.
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2020-08-11, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
It would also make a lot of sense seeing how the monk is a martial artist that... Sucks at grapples and shoves. He can get out of a grapple at least.
"Sucks" as in, Strenght's usually low.
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2020-08-11, 08:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Treatmonk on Monks in 5e
That's the catch-22 I think. A lot of aspects of the Monk are so "almost there but not quite" that I don't think any one bandaid fix will be enough. Or more positively there are many ways you can make the Monk better to match what you want out of it, whether that's more damage, more ki points, more movement etc. Lots of knobs to tweak.
The one thing I'm certain that needs an improvement is Stillness of Mind. That feature is just really awkward to use.