Is TDO an unreliable source?

[ti'esar]

Heck, TDO's supposed "martyrdom" and his present status as an evil god are hardly mutually exclusive either.

(Although for the record I do think the account presented to modern goblins of his life and death is at least a little... idealized).

[Fyraltari]

Disagreed. He did not recruit Recloak, specifically. He just did not dump him once he picked up the Mantle.

A distinction without a difference.

1. Interesting take, and technically true.
2. They can be pretty straightforward if they so choose. Also, Recloak is obviously not necessarily ”open and honest”, since, first of all, he doesn't go around explaining the Plan to anyone who cares to listen. How many levels of obfuscation do you expect to be there?

At the very maximum? Three. Redcloak < TDO < Loki & Consorts but the last one is among my farthest « out there » guesses.

In Utterly Dwarfed, yes, but whatever we've seen up to that point clashes with that image, big time. That's what I've brought an example for from Blood Runs. Is Thor this carefree, irresponsible, apathetic guy, who seems to be somewhat benevolent at times (if childish and fairly dumb) that keeps popping up as late as in Blood Runs, or the knowledgeable Reasonable Authority Figure from Dwarfed? Is he both, with creepy mood swings (and why would we trust such an unstable character)? Is he one of these, and just putting on an act whenever he acts contrary to what he really is, and would this be a good sign? Is he neither, manipulating everyone? What's the deal here, really?

Thor is a fun-loving benevolent guy. When he can help, he does so (even playing dumb when that helps such as when arguing over souls with his niece) and‘ when he can’t help he doesn’t dwell on it and goes to do something else.
Those segments are hardly incompatible.

Good for the readership. As if authors never played with expectations.

« The story points towards something being true therefore it’s not » is not a convincing argument. What would [/spoiler]Right-Eye was wrong![/spoiler] bring to the table? Why not have put in the story a scene of Redcloak and the Dark One talking about their plans like Hel and Durkon* did if they are completely on the level with one another?

Mhm. So Big Purple, the only god who basically went the extra mile to tell all his high priests much everything he could possibly know at the point when he created the Mantle

Neither of those things are established facts. First, you can’t say that the Mantle contains the sum total of the Dark One’s knowledge on the Snarl because the Crimson Mantle is our only source on what he knows about the Snarl, that’s circular.
Second, Hel was more communicative with Durkon* than he was with Redcloak.

is negligent for not calling Redcloak every other night to chat (what's he supposed to tell him, really, besides ”carry on, you're doing fine” which Redcloak could infer anyway from being granted spells?)

Nice strawman you’ve got going on there.
Things The Dark One could have told Redclaok:
That the Order of the Stick is actively working against them and coordinated with the Sapphire Guard in Azure City. Later on, that they were en route to Girard’s Gate.

And much more importantly, where to find an arcane Caster willing to work with goblins and powerful enough to carry out the Ritual. That would have saved Redclaok a world of trouble.

But also, Redcloak hasn’t talked once to the Dark One in his entire life. Don’t you think he called his god for help when he was

Spoiler: SoD

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alone with his baby brother having left the ruins of their village when he was just a teenager?

I’m not the one calling the Dark One negligent, that’s what the gag is saying.

When the Dark One had a chance to send a message to Redclaok he didn’t congratulate him on the job he’d done so far, he didn’t offer any advice going forward like a good leader would have done. He told him to get back to work. What it comes down to is that Thor is portrayed as someone who values his subordinates as people and the Dark One as someone who sees his as a mean to an end.

Further, Redcloak and Jirix are biased and probably wrong, while

Spoiler: SoD, of course

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Right-Eye, who works from even less than those two certainly figured it out much better. Right-Eye is right about the Plan, inasmuch as he foretells accurately that it will get messy if Redcloak stays on board, but we have no reason to believe he's also right about the Dark One's motivations,

because he simply does not have the means to verify his claims.

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Right-Eye has the perspective of an entire life of service to the Dark One for no reward but the death of his entire family and the Dark One being fine with that. The Dark One could have stripped Redcloak of his power to tell him that allying with Xykon was not acceptable. But he didn’t, therefore to the Dark One the needless death of all those goblins is acceptable. That’s not a loving god, that’s a god who sees his flock as expendable.

But that’s Watsonian reasoning, the Doylist reasonning is simpler and more powerful: Right-Eye is framed as being right. Therefore he most likely is.

(As for divine-to-mortal communication, even if such laws exist (and I don't remember any clear on-panel confirmation of that), they can certainly be bypassed. At least two gods have demonsrated an ability to kinda-sorta speak to/through their clerics/followers (I'm talking about Odin's prophecy about Durkon and the dynamic between Tiamat and her Oracle).)

Tiamat does not speak to the Oracle, she gave him the power of prophecy. As for the priest of Odin we don’t know who contacted whom in the first place so it does seems (although that isn’t stated) that gods can’t initiate contact with their Clerics.

[Dragonus45]

"GaXP origin/reason for goblin creation is true" and "The Dark One's cause is unjust" don't have to be mutually exclusive. The goblins got a raw deal, but they demonstrably have souls (see Jirix) and the Dark One's plan is endangering theirs as much as everyone else's. Given that only he and Redcloak know the full details of it (and Tsukiko I guess, wherever she ended up), all the other goblins were essentially signed up for it without understanding it, and even the two of them are missing critical pieces of the puzzle.

On the GaXP thing, I'm not sure if it's just the story has gone on for a long time and stuff shifted a little or what but the revelation with the gods makes it feel more out of place, the kind of thing that certainly happened the first few cycles the same way your first few games when you run tend to be more basic while you learn how to RP and tell a story. What I find a bit more interesting, awful, and compelling is the idea that at this point people did it all on their own anyways. The gods made Goblins and the like as an afterthought, set the world in motion, and people found their way to writing off goblin lives and and creating the state of perpetual war they are all in all on their own without any divine mandate.

[Riftwolf]

Tiamat does not speak to the Oracle, she gave him the power of prophecy. As for the priest of Odin we don’t know who contacted whom in the first place so it does seems (although that isn’t stated) that gods can’t initiate contact with their Clerics.

This being a self-aware fantasy parody, it's likely the Gods have a rule they can give their High Priests prophecies outside the domain agreement, but only if the prophecy is vague and worded in such a way to give multiple readings.

(Although for the record I do think the account presented to modern goblins of his life and death is at least a little... idealized).

I've thought about that too, but it's hardly like he'd be the first folk hero to be posthumously lionized.

[dancrilis]

Spoiler

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Right-Eye was wrong!

As a heads up the tags are wrong here.

Also I agree I will be a bit surprised if that spoiler turns out to be correct.

[Metastachydium]

A distinction without a difference.

Not quite. The dying bearer handed the Mantle to the only other cleric around him. Redcloak hired himself by putting it on, and although the way I remember it, he could have passed it on to any other goblin cleric with more experience and less traumas, he chose to keep it.

At the very maximum? Three. Redcloak < TDO < Loki & Consorts but the last one is among my farthest « out there » guesses.

You guess so, and I guess your guess is a guess, no more, no less (silly rhyme not intended).

Thor is a fun-loving benevolent guy. When he can help, he does so (even playing dumb when that helps such as when arguing over souls with his niece) and‘ when he can’t help he doesn’t dwell on it and goes to do something else.
Those segments are hardly incompatible.

That example with the arguing business is, again, from UD. Before Book 6, he was consistently portrayed as irresponsible, lazy and not as helpful as he could be. The thing with the Mass Death Ward is not a god trying hard and failing, so not pressing an issue he cannot press. It's a god not even trying, and throwing his most important cleric to the metaphorical lions and going to literally soak his feet instead of hanging around to see what he can do.

Also, unless Durkon is a bloody liar, Thor is not really keen on answering calls from his followers, Durkon (the most important of them) included. He only implies he'll do it in the future after he has burdened the dwarf with a nigh-impossible task. What a guy!

« The story points towards something being true therefore it’s not » is not a convincing argument. What would

Spoiler

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Right-Eye was wrong!

bring to the table? Why not have put in the story a scene of Redcloak and the Dark One talking about their plans like Hel and Durkon* did if they are completely on the level with one another?
(…)
Second, Hel was more communicative with Durkon* than he was with Redcloak.

Well, it would apparently surprise next to everyone in the readership, since ”the story points towards the Dark One's quiddity being the best solution to end the cycle, therefore he's a malevolent, double-crossing piece of excrement who'll probably end up as a red herring” sems to be a great fan-favourite as far as theories go, although pretty much everyone I've seen arguing for it thus far failed to present conclusive evidence that this is truly the case.
As for Greg, I find that comparison wanting: Greg's „dark spirit was birthed in [Hel's] hall” – quite literally.

Neither of those things are established facts. First, you can’t say that the Mantle contains the sum total of the Dark OneÂ’s knowledge on the Snarl because the Crimson Mantle is our only source on what he knows about the Snarl, that’s circular.

Thor confirms that Big Purple realized the Gates exist on his own, and severed all connections with Loki immediately afterwards, which is consistent with the story the Mantle implanted in Redcloak's head (a cleric of his found Lirian's Gate and he doesn't know where the other Gates are). Which is close enough for me to treat it as plausible.
Also, „not an established fact” does not mean „it's all a bloody lie”.

Nice strawman you’ve got going on there.
Things The Dark One could have told Redclaok:
That the Order of the Stick is actively working against them and coordinated with the Sapphire Guard in Azure City. Later on, that they were en route to GirardÂ’s Gate.

And much more importantly, where to find an arcane Caster willing to work with goblins and powerful enough to carry out the Ritual. That would have saved Redclaok a world of trouble.

But also, Redcloak hasn’t talked once to the Dark One in his entire life. Don’t you think he called his god for help when he was

Spoiler: SoD

Show

alone with his baby brother having left the ruins of their village when he was just a teenager?

I’m not the one calling the Dark One negligent, that’s what the gag is saying.

Yeah, sure. You're making a big fat assumption here: the gods know everything, and much unlike the others, Big Purple could have told Redcloak everything. If that's the case, why didn't Thor (who should know more about the Gates than Big Purple) tell Durkon where exactly he can find Kraagor's Gate, while handing him a complete version of Xykon and Redcloak's spell list and revealing the identities of the Mystery Voices?
Gods don't seem to be omniscient. It would seem to me that they know what their clerics know (this is how Big Purple apparently found his first Gate), and they can probably (this one is guesswork, mind you) scry for stuff super-efficiently if they know well enough what they are looking for. No goblin cleric followed the Order around, and Big Purple had no reason to believe they are importa
nt until they showed up in Azure City. As for the Arcane casters, given the status and perhaps life choices of the goblins arcane casters willing to work with them are apparently hard to find, while goblinoid arcane casters (about whom the Dark One would know) powerful enough to do the job just don't really exist.

When the Dark One had a chance to send a message to Redclaok he didn’t congratulate him on the job he’d done so far, he didnÂ’t offer any advice going forward like a good leader would have done. He told him to get back to work. What it comes down to is that Thor is portrayed as someone who values his subordinates as people and the Dark One as someone who sees his as a mean to an end.

1. Redcloak knew exactly what he was going to do, so no advice was needed.
2. He also said ”no pressure, though”, which we can safely read as ”don't angst over it too much, it's going fine”. As per Jirix, he calls Redclaok his true prophet as well, which is also a form of recognition.
3. Why exactly would a newly ascended former warlord have better people skills?

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Right-Eye has the perspective of an entire life of service to the Dark One for no reward but the death of his entire family and the Dark One being fine with that. The Dark One could have stripped Redcloak of his power to tell him that allying with Xykon was not acceptable. But he didn’t, therefore to the Dark One the needless death of all those goblins is acceptable. ThatÂ’s not a loving god, thatÂ’s a god who sees his flock as expendable.

But thatÂ’s Watsonian reasoning, the Doylist reasonning is simpler and more powerful: Right-Eye is framed as being right. Therefore he most likely is.

As does Redcloak and probably Jirix, who are both clerics to boot. As for the alliance with Xykon, it furthered the Plan just fine thus far (and it also helped create Gobbotopia (which, if Jirix is to be trusted, is something Big Purple absolutely approves of) – Redcloak wouldn't have hired the hobos if it hadn't been for Xykon, the lich as a bad example was crucial for his realization that he mistreats them, and Xykon also did his share in the battle).
Moreover, I never said he's a nice guy, let alone a Good guy. He's (most feasibly Lawful) Evil, and a hypothetical cost-benefit analysis resulting in the conclusion that the death of a couple thousand followers can change the future of entire generations doesn't sound unlike some twisted, Lawful Evil version of a „the needs of the many sort of reasoning”. No sane general expects to win a hard-fought battle withput casualties.
As for how

Spoiler

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Right-Eye is framed, I outlined a possible way in which he can be right (results will come at a terrible cost, especially for Redcloak) which does not exclude the possibility that the Dark One honestly thinks this is the best way they can achieve their goal.

Tiamat does not speak to the Oracle, she gave him the power of prophecy. As for the priest of Odin we don’t know who contacted whom in the first place so it does seems (although that isn’t stated) that gods can’t initiate contact with their Clerics.

He gives him knowledge (I'd bet money that a share of her knowledge, in fact, but at any rate, it is hardly likely that the knowledge doesn't get to him through Tiamat) about everything there is and everything there will be, giving him, for instance, the ability to foresee his deaths and make arrangements for that.
As for the other half, „we don’t know who contacted whom in the first place so it does seems (although that isn’t stated) that gods can’t initiate contact with their Clerics” (we don't know if it's possible, so potential evidence for the position that it is has to be ignored) is a ludicrously weak argument. I have no reason to accept any conclusion you reached working with this as a premise.

[Psyren]

On the GaXP thing, I'm not sure if it's just the story has gone on for a long time and stuff shifted a little or what but the revelation with the gods makes it feel more out of place, the kind of thing that certainly happened the first few cycles the same way your first few games when you run tend to be more basic while you learn how to RP and tell a story. What I find a bit more interesting, awful, and compelling is the idea that at this point people did it all on their own anyways. The gods made Goblins and the like as an afterthought, set the world in motion, and people found their way to writing off goblin lives and and creating the state of perpetual war they are all in all on their own without any divine mandate.

You're right, it's entirely possible that OotSlanders chose to treat goblins that way independent of or perhaps even contrary to the gods' wishes. Though one could argue that the gods have the opportunity (through their clerics) to steer people in a different direction if that's the case, and therefore that even if they didn't create this paradigm they're doing nothing to stop it.

I expect that there's more to the Dark One's tale than he told Redcloak to get him so dedicate to The Plan, but I also expect that the story will end with Redcloak having at least played a part in accomplishing a better status quo for goblins everywhere (whether or not he lives to see it.)

[The MunchKING]

This being a self-aware fantasy parody, it's likely the Gods have a rule they can give their High Priests prophecies outside the domain agreement, but only if the prophecy is vague and worded in such a way to give multiple readings.

I was thinking it was more that Odin, Rooster, and Tiamat are prophecy Gods. Apollo could probably do the same thing if he wasn't super dead.