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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default V20 Character Optimization

    I know that VtM is not about optimization but I do want them to be mechanically highly effective. Please do not just post to say "That goes against what the system is about" I know.

    Ok I am not brand new but my experiences have been limited. But I joined a Discord Server VtM V20 game set in Chicago (Cam), Detriot(Sab), and Gary(Anarch).
    This server gives you 30 freebie points, and of course the 7 from Flaws.
    Costs for everything is the same, they really frown on 5th level discipline from the get go but 4th level is fine.
    They do allow a scattering of Revised Merits, Rituals, Paths, etc all need to be approved by the ST who is fairly cooperative.

    Now I never played those older version so I feel a little out of sorts when compared to some of the others who had obscure merits or things to work with.
    I was thinking of a Lasombra for a Sabbat character (My first ever Sabbat).
    My concept for the person (before applying vampire stuff) was a person with primary mental and secondary social attributes. He is a distinctively intelligent person and charming. He is also smart enough to know how to use that charisma to get what he wanted by either pressing something or luring someone to believe what he wanted was their idea. He does want more, a yearning to accomplish something of value, he has a lot but feels like he has nothing and yearns to do more, to keep earning more to fill that hole.

    Not just asking for a sheet, but hell I would give them considerations.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2009

    Default Re: V20 Character Optimization

    Obtenebration 3 is pretty high value for money. As is Vicissitude 4, for horrid form+ raising your appearance. Serpentis 3 for the hypnotism power and skin of the adder.
    Apart from these dominate is a typical power house as is thaumaturgy, I especially like path of spirit and focused mind.
    Ofcourse all of these dont take into account clan politics and roleplay requirements, they also don't take into account using DA20 rules.
    You can also see the xp to freebie value for the most xp optimized way to spend your freebies. I think its willpower.
    These are some interesting powers/merits from Lore of the Clans:

    Assamite
    Eyes of Blades (Auspex 2, Celerity 2)
    Honeyed Words(Auspex 2, Presence 2)
    Shadow Feint (Celerity 2, Obfuscate 2)
    All of these are good but not extremely strong

    Setites
    Typhonic Beast (Potence 3, Serpentis 4)This seems to me pretty strong

    Giovanni
    Mortuario decreases necomancy difficulties by 2 which should count for sth.

    Lasombra
    Controllable Night Sight (2pt. Merit) Ok this isn't something amazing, but still useful
    King or Queen of Shadow (4pt. Merit) This seems to me extremely good and it kinda fits your character concept.
    Armor of the Abyss (Obtenebration 3, Fortitude 3) seems good to me
    Fear of the Dark (Presence 2, Obtenebration 2) this is a little op since courage will never exceed 5 theoritically even antedeluvians can get stomped by this.
    Shroud of Absence (Obfuscate 3, Obtenebration 3) Very strong if your st rules high auspex doesn't automatically counter it.
    Lasombra magic ritruals don't remeber the name:
    Light within shadow level 1 ritual as far as I can tell has no real cost
    Claiming the dark maybe this is the best ritual for obtenebration if you start with obtenebration 4 and low physicals it will super boost your powers.

    Nosferatu
    Sleep unseens and False reflection make obfuscate better.

    Ravnos
    Waking Dream
    (Chimerstry 1, Fortitude 1) this seems like it could be reall useful.

    Tzimisce
    Promethean Clay (5pt. Merit) Vissicitude is strong and this makes it better.
    Last edited by VladtheLad; 2020-08-02 at 04:35 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: V20 Character Optimization

    I had a little bit of numerical advice, while you've already mentioned the restrictions on 5 dots in Disciplines, if they do not have the same restrictions on Attributes 5s are your friend. I mention this because it will cost 16 exp to raise a stat from 4 to 5, but only 4 exp to raise from 1 to 2, so there's a little bit of Min-Maxing to be had there and can be done in as little as 1 session if you plan it out.
    The only other consideration is if the group adheres to the rules restriction that a player can only increase each Trait once per story (V20 core rules page 123), be wary of that as it's a trap that's easy to fall into for planning out potential growth.

    While stats can go above 5 depending on your generation, you'll appreciate 5's in key stats early on if nothing else, and if the chance for Diablerie never comes up, then you're sitting at cap, and save more exp in the long run.

    Example for Primary attributes category:
    Having stats at 3/3/4 will cost 72 exp to raise to all 5s, while 2/3/5 will cost 64 exp to raise to all 5s, and 1/4/5 will cost only 56 exp to raise to all 5s.

    In each case, it will all take 5 story arcs to raise those stats, but cost you less the more you skew it towards having 5 in your Attributes from the get go.
    Longtime lurker, Infrequent poster.

    Avalanche in Hell of the Improbability Drive Fan Club

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    Cleveland
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: V20 Character Optimization

    Thread necro...but its a game about vampires, lol. Sorry.

    Caveat: know the ST's style of play.
    Caveat: know how lucky you are with dice, you can minimize dice rolling if you have sad luck.

    Mechanically, V20 dice system is about 40% chance success per dice - this includes 1s subtract. Things change depending on 10s doing double or exploding.
    Basically, on average, 2d10 trends to 1 success. This is at standard difficulty 6.

    Difficulty 7 you want 3 dice per success.
    Difficulty 8 , 4 dice per projected success.
    Difficulty 9 is hard with 5 dice per success.
    Difficulty 10 with 1s subtracting can lead to Botches...or truly heroic feats.

    So a 'strong' dice pool should have at least 6 dice to attempt 3+ success which are seen as complete success. Again, ST needs to put success in context.

    This has more value in Extended dice pools or combat pools.

    So how do you get the most out of your chargen dots?

    Character concept first, then figure the desired dice pools, then choose clans with Disciplines that benefit from those dice pools, then factor in backgrounds and Merits.
    Then plot char growth: Better to start with 2-3 strong dice pools? Or generalize with lots of 1 dots that can grow quickly? (i tend to prefer few strong pools)

    Brujah are very efficient in this. Presence is CHA heavy, and the Abilities needed are pretty available to a social character.
    Potence and Celerity passives FEED into physical dice pools.
    So you could split the difference and generalize between physical and social, or pile into physical and CHA and use Freebies to pump Abilities for weaker pools.

    Nosferatu are another efficient build. Potence feed STR builds, which are useful for grappling and dealing with logistics in the Sewers/Barrens(carrying bodies down to the sewers while Obfuscated/digging/clearing **** out of the sewer/using a cinderblock as a thrown weapon/etc). MAN is used for most Animalism and some Obfuscate so a tertiary social Attribute can be strong: all 3 to MAN, leave CHA at 1 and forget APP. MAN used for 4/5ths of Animalism powers and 1 obfuscate power as well as Obfuscate contested vs Auspex.

    Social primary gets you a 5 and a 4, which is very strong for Animalism and Obfuscate. Secondary Physical can get you 5 STR, a 1 and 2 between STA and DEX. Or teriary physical can get you a 4 STR, 1 DEX, 1 STA. Not as bad as it sounds if you use Abilities to build the lesser dice pools. Brawl and melee pools at 4 net 1-2 successes to hit and the STR+Potence does the work.

    Other clans like Assamites and Ravnos have disciplines that dont rely on dice pools but usually need Willpower or Blood Points(WP/BP). Seems like a deal until you realize more feeding = more chances to botch at feeding/Frenzying and St depending, WP may not replenish quickly.

    'Magic' clans are a bit different: Paths can be an XP sink, even if powerful. If ST doesnt require a time component to learn new Paths/Rituals, then load up because you are getting a huge break.

    Merits and Flaws: anything that +/- Difficulty is more powerful than bonus dice. Enchanting Voice, even if its benefits dont work for Discipline pools, is very strong.

    Other Merits that juke rules are strong: Acute Senses can mitigate combat in darkness. Concentration has value vs Auspex users when using flashbang type tactics, Early Riser can get you lots of extra play time if ST uses downtime, Additional Discipline can save you 15 or 20 EXP, Elysium Regular lets you fill your rolodex faster(contact lists for you youngsters), Bully Boy for combat or investigation chars is amazing- you already have an 'in' at court, etc.

    Backgrounds can be a blessing, or a curse if ST uses them as story hooks. I used to think Resource5 was amazing till i rolled with a ST that knew about finance and investing. Mo Money mo problems. Big pool of resources is a target. And other vamps want your $ without having to manage it themselves...that would make you the manager.

    Generation is similar, 8th gen whelp with a weak/no sire is diablerie bait.

    Domain can be great for certain clans like Nosferatu or Gangrel for feeding or security.

    Status can be great for more social games so be sure to defend it.

    Etc...

    Hope this helps.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Default Re: V20 Character Optimization

    This reminds me of a stupidly broken build I made for V20. If you create an Angellis Ater Maeghar vampire who's a member of the Children of Osiris you get access to Daimonion, Obtenebration, Mythercia, Abyss Mysticism, and Bardo right off the bat. So you have 4-5 inherent unique disciplines (Abyss Mysticism is is more of a specialization) when most vampires are lucky to get one.

    As far as flaws go I took nightmares, cold breeze, eerie presence, and lord of the night (if Dark ages content is allowed replace the last 2 with harbinger of the abyss). Basically you just double down on the negative qualities you would get from using Abyss Mysticism.

    Assamite Sorcerer Maeghars can also get access to 3 unique disciplines, plus Bardo from joining the Children of Osiris. Other broken combinations are possible with the apostate merit but that gives you 2 clan curses and requires joining the Baali.

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