Starcraft 2 10th Anniversary - Huge Co-op Changes

[Psyren]

I didnt know about him being dlc, thats pretty cool. I try not to assume anyone knows who im talking about when I mention youtubers because I have no idea if they are actually well known or not. I enjoy listening to him talk, especially when he posts the player submitted games that seem to horrify him or make him crack up on a regular basis. Its funny, I honestly dont have the level of interest needed to play, despite the co-op commanders being really really intriguing, but at least i can enjoy watching him run around the brutal mutation missions trying all sorts of crazy stunts. And at least I have enough knowledge of the game to understand whats going on and WHY something is good or bad.

I strongly suggest giving it a try - co-op is hours upon hours of fun and the commanders and their prestiges all feel extremely unique and rewarding in different ways. My kingdom for additional maps though.

So I moved Mengsk to the Proletariat line, I'm slowly working to baneling Mengsk.

I have to say, the Proletariat one feels like what they intended all along. I actually have large numbers of Royal Guard at the end, even using Sky Furies feels better (they have good DPS they are just extremely squishy.) I wonder if throwing all of my mastery points at RG with this one will make nearly mono-guard viable.

Several of the prestiges do that - emphasize a style that you can technically pull off with P0 (and that there are even pre-existing masteries to support) but the prestige makes it ultimately far more viable. For example, Stukov P1 that lets you basically ignore his infested units and go all in on mech (i.e. mass Diamondbacks, with maybe some Liberators or Tanks thrown in for certain missions, and amplified by the mech attack mastery.) Or Artanis P1 that's aimed at making a very caster-heavy army, amplified by the energy/cooldown mastery.

[Winthur]

For example, Stukov P1 that lets you basically ignore his infested units and go all in on mech (i.e. mass Diamondbacks

To be fair, that one was the only strat that Stukov used in a few high-level mutations simply because of how much his bio style got shafted, so P1 looks like a straight upgrade to Stockov for everything except Kill Bots. And with 15 mineral Marines, Broodlings and max cooldown on Infest being a natural for P1 Stukov, maybe not even then.

[Psyren]

Bio was shafted? News to me, I still see that one as one of the top picks for Brutations. Last week's for example was Lock & Load with random mag mines + widow mines all over the map, and making you and your ally dependent on spawning resources (which typically means gas starvation), all of which bio Stukov was tailor-made for since he could overwhelm the bombs with flesh, his shambling hordes made grabbing the spawns easy and he could park bunkers directly on the locks to prevent Amon taking them back. I cleared it a couple of times for fun with Stetmann P2 and Stukov was by far my most common partner. (The synergy between Stukov and Stetmann of course making them one of the best commander combos in the entire game.)

[Winthur]

Bio was shafted?

Well, yes - with huge reliance on creep (massive issue on large maps with long distances, like Malwarfare) and constant changes to how bunkers work bio is just really slow and not that impressive; the best feature is that Bunkers are great defensive and unit generating value, but maximizing the use of Stukov's kit is just not as rewarding.

I pick Stuke Nukem from time to time, but for most of the tough mutations I picked him on recently, using p1 would have been a straight upgrade (all Propagator ones are a given, but mass Diamondbacks with their hurtfloor thing are also terrific for objectives like the trains, they're mobile, they help out against mass air quite a lot -- actually, Stukov's anti-air game can be vicious due to Liberators as well). Against HftS, all bio does is maybe, sometimes, provide a decent distraction for Nova's nuke or Zagara's roach drop, because it falls apart really quickly. It struggles against most environmental mutators.

Ofc, in Brutal anything can work, and there are mutations where the zombie mass will work, but I just don't believe it's particularly exceptional for most purposes. If I were to push Brutal+ or something with Stukov, I'd prefer to go with a mech build.

I just don't think Stukov is a high performer right now - though that very well may be a testament to how strong commanders in co-op tend to be. His best combo, IMO, is with Kerrigan due to permanent Malignant Creep everywhere. Stukov / Stetmann is certainly the most exceptional combo for taxing my poor computer.

Part of how I feel is also down to how few solo Brutation wins Stukov has, which seems to imply he's not particularly self-reliant. Or maybe no one has figured out how to play him yet, but given his bottlenecks (relatively low peak DPS, powerful but somewhat clunky mechanics like the Siege Tank firing mode, slow early game) I think he's as low-tier as it's possible to discuss within the confines of the co-op mode.

[Psyren]

Eh, every commander has maps they're weak on. Stukov might require more micro than Tychus to keep up on Malwarfare for example, but he needs less to keep up on, say, Dead of Night.

That data has several faults as well - being based on replays (which most players don't record) being based on solo play (not what the game was designed for), being focused on high-skill-cap players (the ones more likely to try soloing mutations in the first place) etc. I think a conclusion like "X commander got shafted" based on that data is similarly faulty. Remember, a high-ceiling low-floor commander like Kerrigan or Raynor can still end up far worse off in queue play than one like Stukov with a higher floor and lower ceiling.

Perhaps interestingly, I have much bigger lag problems as Stetmann + Zagara than Stetmann + Stukov, even when the latter has more raw bodies moving through the zones. I have no idea why - maybe the number of calculations multiplies when you're dealing with a micro-controllable or faster-moving army.

[Tvtyrant]

I imagine I'm not talented enough to really be part of that conversation, as I never do harder than Brutal II. Stukov has some of the best AA and has a good combination of burst damage from barracks and sustain, as well as having two of the best calldowns.

His biggest weakness IME is people making too many bunkers and tanks because they are so easy to play, and then not having enough pop cap to use the more specialized units.

[Winthur]

Perhaps interestingly, I have much bigger lag problems as Stetmann + Zagara than Stetmann + Stukov, even when the latter has more raw bodies moving through the zones. I have no idea why - maybe the number of calculations multiplies when you're dealing with a micro-controllable or faster-moving army.

Here is my best, uneducated, guess based on second-hand snippets of information - Stetmann's lag is, supposedly, primarily caused by the game calculating in real time whether a unit is fighting on a Stetzone or not, whether it's overcharged, and making checks for their Egonergy where applicable. In addition, if the speed boost is on, the game is also heavily taxed by calculating the pathfinding for fast units. And on top of that, each Stetzone is a particle effect that is actively maintained by the game.

I am not sure whether Stukov's infested benefit from Stetzones (they do not benefit from a number of beneficial effects; easiest to illustrate with an Artanis partner, as infested civilians will not receive Guardian Shell but will be granted Shield Overcharge), but Zagara's swarms certainly do.

That might be the issue: imagine a horde of Zerglings surrounding a Void Shard. Now imagine the game calculating their attack and movement speeds in real time because they're standing on Overcharged FAST. It's already pretty bad with just a Stetmann ally.

His biggest weakness IME is people making too many bunkers and tanks because they are so easy to play, and then not having enough pop cap to use the more specialized units.

The problem isn't really with the pop cap, IMO, because you only need like 6-7 upgraded Liberators to do air waves and Queens outside of Broodling-nuking objectives are kind of micro-intensive for most Stukov players, but rather that his ramp-up is pretty slow. It takes like 6 minutes for a Bunker to pay off its cost as a unit spawner alone, without factoring its utility as a defensive building, and if you focus on Barracks play over Bunkers, Stukov has a problem with unit retention (and additional Barracks cost money themselves as well).

Anyhow, it doesn't really matter; it's rather evident that any commander can solo Brutal and there are quite a few situations where Stukov is a top tier commander (as Psyren pointed out a few), I just think his relative power level is a bit low-tier.

In my book, Tvtyrant, we'd probably have a pretty equal game because you're likely not a Stukov on the level of the guy who, on the infamous Invisible Fast Propagator mutation on Malwarfare, rushed Infestation Level 2, blindly set his infantry forward, passed by my mines set for the first Propagator, and was VERY surprised that his Infantry got deleted, and 3 seconds later, his base. All he did was type "wtf". So yeah, I assure you your experiences are valid because the people who really grok this casual gamemode are in the 0,1% and I'm not even among them. I just think mech Stukov has overall more tools.

[Psyren]

I think that's ultimately the beauty of prestiges, because by making playstyle X easier/more attractive to access, they incentivise people who might not have otherwise tried it, to try it. I would maybe see 1/10 Stukovs I get paired with going diamondback before this system, but now with people leveling P1 or getting to enjoy it, it's closer to 50/50 whether I see them vs. the typical infantry strat. Same with Abathur P2 - , I would pretty much never see Swarm Hosts outside of defense missions.

As for me, I only play Brutal and Brutal+ as those are the highest difficulties you can queue with randoms for. I don't have the patience for premade groups except with people I know IRL, I'd rather the system RNG decide. For me, the fun of getting a random and occasionally having to carry or learn something new is the extra element of randomness that keeps the game exciting.


Anyway! Huge update today with several co-op balance changes and tweaks. Most notable among them for me is that Nova's P1 has been tweaked so that Mech Nova is now a thing! I tried it just now on Oblivion Express with a fleet of Liberators and Banshees, and proceeded to shred the trains - fantastic! I may have a new favorite prestige for her.

[Dienekes]

Well, I'll join to celebrate 10 years of SCII. It remains my most played game. I can't believe it's been a whole decade.

I'm not gonna say I care much about co-op. I tried it a few times, but it wasn't for me. I like the idea of facing a bunch of different campaign based objective maps, but I don't really like playing with other people, and the commanders themselves just felt like less interesting/mechanically intensive versions of the base races.

But, the editor stuff looks neat, I hope we get some cool arcade games from it. And as a 'Toss player I'm salivating at the potential Void Ray changes.

For too long Protoss Air has been the most boring way of playing the game. For too long Void Ray has been nothing but an annoying rush strat.

[Tvtyrant]

In my book, Tvtyrant, we'd probably have a pretty equal game because you're likely not a Stukov on the level of the guy who, on the infamous Invisible Fast Propagator mutation on Malwarfare, rushed Infestation Level 2, blindly set his infantry forward, passed by my mines set for the first Propagator, and was VERY surprised that his Infantry got deleted, and 3 seconds later, his base. All he did was type "wtf". So yeah, I assure you your experiences are valid because the people who really grok this casual gamemode are in the 0,1% and I'm not even among them. I just think mech Stukov has overall more tools.

That guy sounds amazing! I have played some really bad games myself; I recently lost a game of Dead of Night on hard as level 2 Zagara, without bile blasters I couldn't keep the base alive.

[Traab]

I watched a propagator game that also had a stun effect. One guy ran raynor and planted mines EVERYWHERE to stop them. Turns out, stunned mines can be propagated. That was an UGLY wipe. You could just see the snowball effect taking place as every time a stun went off, every mine in range became vulnerable and was quickly turned only to do it again to the next batch. Worst part is, it was right at the last objective point (Hence mines everywhere)

[Tvtyrant]

I watched a propagator game that also had a stun effect. One guy ran raynor and planted mines EVERYWHERE to stop them. Turns out, stunned mines can be propagated. That was an UGLY wipe. You could just see the snowball effect taking place as every time a stun went off, every mine in range became vulnerable and was quickly turned only to do it again to the next batch. Worst part is, it was right at the last objective point (Hence mines everywhere)

That's so spectacular I wonder if it wasn't on purpose.

[NigelWalmsley]

Swann and Mensk have cooperative building for their workers. Is there a way to get the workers not to be goddamn idiots about it? Because nothing pisses me off more than selecting three workers, hitting "build refinery", then realizing ten minutes later that I've got one worker on gas and two idle. Basically, I want worker behavior like Age of Empires has, where all the workers will automatically start building the thing when I tell them to build it.

[Keltest]

Swann and Mensk have cooperative building for their workers. Is there a way to get the workers not to be goddamn idiots about it? Because nothing pisses me off more than selecting three workers, hitting "build refinery", then realizing ten minutes later that I've got one worker on gas and two idle. Basically, I want worker behavior like Age of Empires has, where all the workers will automatically start building the thing when I tell them to build it.

Nominally, Swann's workers will automatically assist with building something when theyre idle, but i believe this is bugged. I dont know if Mengsk's laborers are intended to have the same functionality.

[Tvtyrant]

Nominally, Swann's workers will automatically assist with building something when theyre idle, but i believe this is bugged. I dont know if Mengsk's laborers are intended to have the same functionality.

I think that's supposed to be a fluff thing. They work as drafted labor for an autocracy, they don't volunteer for anything. It is slightly frustrating that Mengsk gets it at level 1 and Swann has to earn it though.