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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    The dirge singer is interesting and powerful. Very inspiration hungry keeps it in check but I could see a order domain/dirge singer turning your average Martial into a blender.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    The dirge singer is interesting and powerful. Very inspiration hungry keeps it in check but I could see a order domain/dirge singer turning your average Martial into a blender.
    To me its the Dirge Singer is the most successful attempt at a Warlord so far. The Bard spell list was a natural choice, considering its buff and debuff emphasis. Spells like Faerie Fire are spectacular and almost always useful, and combining that with the ability to grant additional attacks is superb.

    Really encapsulates the commander feel, and heavily rewards tactical play. And I LOVE abilities which engage your allies, so by granting them another attack, everyone can see the direct result of how helpful the support role is.

    So many players, especially newer and inexperienced players, see high damage numbers and think the only ways to contribute in battle are with high damage and healing, and that's all. Dirge Singer is such an excellent way to play support while also keeping allies engaged.

    EDIT: Just confirmed with Keith Baker, Circle of the Forged is 100% supposed to be an Action to wild shape.
    Last edited by jaappleton; 2020-07-31 at 10:43 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    I was burned by the last Keith Baker Eberron book, Morgrave Miscellany, so I'mma wait a few days to get word on how poorly designed the crunch in this one is.
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    I was burned by the last Keith Baker Eberron book, Morgrave Miscellany, so I'mma wait a few days to get word on how poorly designed the crunch in this one is.
    If you look at the credits page it's an entirely different set of folks working on the mechanics.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    I was burned by the last Keith Baker Eberron book, Morgrave Miscellany, so I'mma wait a few days to get word on how poorly designed the crunch in this one is.
    The book is EXCELLENT. I can't speak to the previous book, so I can't comment at all on that.

    But this book, Exploring Eberron? Well over 100 pages of lore, I think close to 180 or so (at work right now, can't check). Tons of lore, the races are all pretty solid. Some nice variants on things like Hobgoblin and Aasimar (including an Elven bloodline), along with new ones like Gnoll.

    I certainly understand anyone being leery about the mechanical crunch of something on the DMs Guild. Just hearing it is enough to make me anxious, personally. So many of the products on there aren't vetted, you've no idea what you're getting when you spend your money on there. So why bother? I get it, I REALLY do. I've been spurned quite a bit when I used to buy stuff there.

    But this book in particular is pretty damn great. This is better than the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount book. Better than the Theros book. Heck, if it weren't a necessary companion book to this one, I'd say this is superior to the Eberron: Rising from the Last War book. If Rising from the Last War is the cliffnotes, Exploring Eberron is the full novel.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    Well, I think I've spent my game and comic allowance for August, since July got hit with the kickstarters coming back to life. Ahh well, 'tis something I've wanted for awhile. Looking forward to reading about Storm Sea mermaids and the marketplace in the land of eternal sun.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    I like it so far.

    Would be nice if the spells weren't just interspersed with the text, but also rounded up in an appendix. That's the only thing that annoys me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Telwar View Post
    I like it so far.

    Would be nice if the spells weren't just interspersed with the text, but also rounded up in an appendix. That's the only thing that annoys me.
    The embedded spells aren't really intended to be for PCs, the serious character options are all in chapter 6. The chapter 1 stuff is just to fluff out NPC spellcasters since 5e decided to make NPCs still use normal spellcasting.

  9. - Top - End - #39

    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    Well you’re comparing the features as a whole, which is fine. But remember you need to actually play the class to get to that point. So while it’s nice to eventually get Wild Shape as a Reaction, you need to play quite awhile before you get to that point. (A) Meanwhile the Moon Druid hasn’t had to worry about overcoming resistance to attacks for 8 levels or so, (B) but every time the Forged Druid comes up against Undead or Demons, their Wild Shape’s attacks are only doing Half damage as a result.

    EDIT: Additionally, the control riders of the quasi-Smite are limited to only once per turn, (C) and cost a spell slot to implement. (D) And Moon can turn as a Bonus Action, while Forged remains an Action. (I'm gonna ask if that's intended, I'll keep everyone updated)
    (A) Only four levels actually: moon druids get magic weapons at level 6 (when it doesn't really matter much yet), and reaction wildshape and weapon resistance for forged druid comes online at level 10.

    (B) Sure, but does it matter? Wildshaped druids aren't primarily damage-dealers anyway, they're tanks/controllers and spellcasters, and Forged Druids have better spellcasting (can stay in human form longer, until they actually get hit, instead of bonus action transforming when they're afraid they MIGHT get hit) and better tanking (better AC, resistance to nonmagical BPS, huge pile of immunities, and control-based attacks like Restraining bites means the enemy can't just ignore them despite doing anemic damage).

    (C) Yep, a spell slot and no concentration. A Forged Druid can have 8 wolf companions while it's in Giant Constrictor form (AC 17 (!) with Mage Armor), and it can grapple and restrain another enemy (perhaps with its opportunity attack), and then it can ALSO reduce another enemy to 0 movement for up to a minute by spending a first level spell slot, which if it's a melee enemy means it can't participate in the combat. It's not huge but it's a potentially-nice bit of extra control that, again, helps compensate for not having magical damage via better control.

    (D) I know, and my first reaction to Forged druids was, "Oh, interesting! Better wildshapes but a worse action economy, what an interesting tradeoff." Then I kept reading and discovered that at level 10 they get even better tanking AND a better action economy (reaction instead of bonus action).

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    I certainly understand anyone being leery about the mechanical crunch of something on the DMs Guild. Just hearing it is enough to make me anxious, personally. So many of the products on there aren't vetted, you've no idea what you're getting when you spend your money on there. So why bother? I get it, I REALLY do. I've been spurned quite a bit when I used to buy stuff there.

    ... This is better than the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount book. Better than the Theros book. Heck, if it weren't a necessary companion book to this one, I'd say this is superior to the Eberron: Rising from the Last War book. If Rising from the Last War is the cliffnotes, Exploring Eberron is the full novel.
    Personally I'm less concerned about the quality of DM's Guild Stuff than I am of just the sheer open-endedness, which is why I'm fine with accepting a specific, setting-linked book like Exploring Eberron. It's not like some WotC RAW (Healing Spirit v1, Polymorph, Planar Binding, Simulacrum, Wish) isn't just as overpowered what you'd find on DM's Guild, but as long as it's a known, finite quantity of overpowered or underpowered stuff that falls within the existing range of under- to over-poweredness, I can work with it.

    I don't own Theros but I do own Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and I agree that Exploring Eberron is far more compelling, though it's difficult to articulate why I find Wildemount's list of towns and historical factoids so uninspiring, compared to Exploring Eberron's discussions of time travelling githyanki and Slaad republics that rapidly mutate into military dictatorships that rapidly mutate into benevolent-but-genocidal evangelical cults. (Hmmm, did I just articulate part of it? Maybe I did.)

    P.S. Whoa, okay, I just noticed Focus Staff on page 18. No way would I allow that as written. Dominating a 20' radius(!) of enemy soldiers with a single spell? Polymorphing dozens of friendlies into grizzly bears, again with just one spell slot? Just no. I'd restrict this to directly damaging spells only, vs. "any spell that requires an attack roll or saving throw."

    ================================================

    Quote Originally Posted by Telwar View Post
    I like it so far.

    Would be nice if the spells weren't just interspersed with the text, but also rounded up in an appendix. That's the only thing that annoys me.
    For anyone who is curious: the new spells are on page 22 and 26. Low-powered battlemagic, and two magewright cantrips: one for muffling sound, and one for gaining advantage with artisan's tools.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-07-31 at 02:32 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post

    P.S. Whoa, okay, I just noticed Focus Staff on page 18. No way would I allow that as written. Dominating a 20' radius(!) of enemy soldiers with a single spell? Polymorphing dozens of friendlies into grizzly bears, again with just one spell slot? Just no. I'd restrict this to directly damaging spells only, vs. "any spell that requires an attack roll or saving throw."
    I'm not too worried about the Focus Staff. It's a type of Siege Staff, a 15' tall wooden staff that takes 3 actions to actually use: Prime, Aim, Release. Its a magical artillery weapon for an army, not a piece of gear that an adventuring caster is going to be carrying around.

    At best I'd expect to see it as a set piece in a specific encounter, i.e. an abandoned battlefield of the Last War, perhaps in the Mournland.

  11. - Top - End - #41

    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    Quote Originally Posted by phlidwsn View Post
    I'm not too worried about the Focus Staff. It's a type of Siege Staff, a 15' tall wooden staff that takes 3 actions to actually use: Prime, Aim, Release. Its a magical artillery weapon for an army, not a piece of gear that an adventuring caster is going to be carrying around.
    And that is the context in which I'm considering it. No thank you, I don't want 4th/5th level spells and a Focus Staff to be enormously better than 9th level spells (Mass Polymorph). Not in my world, thanks. Banning that use of them.

    I guess I would allow the range extension to work with control spells like Hypnotic Pattern, but definitely no converting Tasha's Laughter into an AoE, or anything like that. (For similar reasons I have also changed Warcaster's third benefit: no reaction-Polymorphing allowed.)
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-07-31 at 04:28 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    Quote Originally Posted by phlidwsn View Post
    I'm not too worried about the Focus Staff. It's a type of Siege Staff, a 15' tall wooden staff that takes 3 actions to actually use: Prime, Aim, Release. Its a magical artillery weapon for an army, not a piece of gear that an adventuring caster is going to be carrying around.

    At best I'd expect to see it as a set piece in a specific encounter, i.e. an abandoned battlefield of the Last War, perhaps in the Mournland.
    I've not read this book yet so I'm unaware of the wording, but that doesn't seem like much of an issue unless all 3 actions need to be taken by one individual:

    -A Fighter can Action Surge

    -A Sorcerer can use their action then quicken a spell

    -Clerics and Divine Souls can Spiritual Weapon to maintain damage and still use it

    -Hirelings and summons maybe?

    If it's turning spells into AOEs (that's what it sounds like) then it'd certainly be worth hauling around in an interdimensional space and then blitzing the deployment.

    Is there a restriction on the spells that it can aoe-ify? Or can you start churning out party wide Death Wards in advance?
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  13. - Top - End - #43

    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I've not read this book yet so I'm unaware of the wording, but that doesn't seem like much of an issue unless all 3 actions need to be taken by one individual:

    -A Fighter can Action Surge

    -A Sorcerer can use their action then quicken a spell

    -Clerics and Divine Souls can Spiritual Weapon to maintain damage and still use it

    -Hirelings and summons maybe?

    If it's turning spells into AOEs (that's what it sounds like) then it'd certainly be worth hauling around in an interdimensional space and then blitzing the deployment.

    Is there a restriction on the spells that it can aoe-ify? Or can you start churning out party wide Death Wards in advance?
    By RAW, "any spell that requires an attack roll or saving throw." So no Death Ward but yes Polymorph and yes Scatter.
    Last edited by MaxWilson; 2020-07-31 at 05:01 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    If it's turning spells into AOEs (that's what it sounds like) then it'd certainly be worth hauling around in an interdimensional space and then blitzing the deployment.
    What space would that be? A Bag of Holding is 2x4ft, while a Portable Hole has a 6ft diameter. And Instant Summons only works on items weighing 10lbs or less. Unless I missed something, you'd need a Demiplane.
    Last edited by Azuresun; 2020-07-31 at 05:40 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #45

    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    You don't need an extradimensional space.

    Long Rod is similar and only 8' long, and 350 lb. total including the stand. That's definitely adventurer-portable, while still enabling crazy shenanigans like mass Charm Monster, mass Banishment, mass Polymorph, mass Levitate, mass Hold Monster, mass Planar Binding, mass Bestow Curse, etc.

    It's hard to tell how much a Siege Staff weighs but it could conceivably be adventurer-portable too via pack animals and/or Powerful Build barbarians.

    Either way I just don't like the idea of a item which is gives you at-will Twin Spell x10-x50, utterly demolishing concentration limits. It feels non-idiomatic for 5E, but at the same time it feels unnecessary for the fictional role this weapon plays in the battlefield--the book doesn't give the impression of being _aware_ that this is an item summoners could use to break the game in half, for instance. All it needs to do to support the described fiction is magnify damage spells and extend the range on control spells beyond longbow range, that's it. No need to let it make Planar Binding a dozen times more efficient too.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    I am not paying 30 bucks for content I will never get to use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    I am not paying 30 bucks for content I will never get to use.
    DM a game and give yourself permission to use it.

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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    I am not paying 30 bucks for content I will never get to use.
    Oh come on! 180+ pages of lore, some magic items, and more subclass options than both the Ravnica and Theros books combined.

    This is absolutely worth the money. And it’s better designed than those books, too! Heck, the Theros book has the Satyr with Fey origin and Magic Resistance, for crying out loud.

    You don’t know if you’ll never get to use it. The quality is certain up to snuff.

    The only people that can say they’ll never get to use it are people that 100% exclusively play AL, and that’s.... I mean, I’m not going to tell anybody how to have your fun, but if you play AL exclusively, you’re hamstringing yourself for sure.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    Oh come on! 180+ pages of lore, some magic items, and more subclass options than both the Ravnica and Theros books combined.

    This is absolutely worth the money. And it’s better designed than those books, too! Heck, the Theros book has the Satyr with Fey origin and Magic Resistance, for crying out loud.

    You don’t know if you’ll never get to use it. The quality is certain up to snuff.

    The only people that can say they’ll never get to use it are people that 100% exclusively play AL, and that’s.... I mean, I’m not going to tell anybody how to have your fun, but if you play AL exclusively, you’re hamstringing yourself for sure.
    You mean the book that was broken it should never have seen print, and the book that sucked so bad it should have never seen print... yeah high bar there.

    If it is not on DNDBeyond, it is not getting used.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    You mean the book that was broken it should never have seen print, and the book that sucked so bad it should have never seen print... yeah high bar there.

    If it is not on DNDBeyond, it is not getting used.
    Good thing that Ravnica book you hate so much is.

    I don't understand why you're so negative about this, a lot of people are enjoying this.

    EDIT: I should clarify, at least saying that you don't approve of the balance is valid enough reason not to use it.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-07-31 at 08:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Good thing that Ravnica book you hate so much is.

    I don't understand why you're so negative about this, a lot of people are enjoying this.
    I get his frustration about it not being available on Beyond. I'm not looking forward to manually coding in these subclasses over the next week or so. It's going to require some time, and a bit of creative thinking on some parts, but its 100% doable for sure.

    The fact that its not available on Beyond, as confirmed by Baker himself, is such a missed opportunity. It really is. As a fellow consumer and member of the hobby, its a level of frustration I can certainly understand and empathize with.

    Beyond's character builder is top notch, for sure. Its also frustrating at times (The Dragonmark races STILL don't function properly, and that was released in November!), still no Class Variant UA implemented, etc. I have my own set of issues with Beyond, believe me, but the builder is still second to none in terms of quality.

    That's precisely whats so frustrating about them: There's pretty much zero competition, which also means there's no incentive for them to get off their butts and do it right.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    I get his frustration about it not being available on Beyond. I'm not looking forward to manually coding in these subclasses over the next week or so. It's going to require some time, and a bit of creative thinking on some parts, but its 100% doable for sure.

    The fact that its not available on Beyond, as confirmed by Baker himself, is such a missed opportunity. It really is. As a fellow consumer and member of the hobby, its a level of frustration I can certainly understand and empathize with.

    Beyond's character builder is top notch, for sure. Its also frustrating at times (The Dragonmark races STILL don't function properly, and that was released in November!), still no Class Variant UA implemented, etc. I have my own set of issues with Beyond, believe me, but the builder is still second to none in terms of quality.

    That's precisely whats so frustrating about them: There's pretty much zero competition, which also means there's no incentive for them to get off their butts and do it right.
    I don't know a thing about coding or programming but adding in alternate class features as optional seems like it would be hard to put in.

    I would love it if they did though, I really want to play a ranger with those UA abilities.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    I don't know a thing about coding or programming but adding in alternate class features as optional seems like it would be hard to put in.

    I would love it if they did though, I really want to play a ranger with those UA abilities.
    Jaapleton makes a valid point above, I've had a growing worry about them getting a bit lazy on adding features. The recent UA feat additions have been a horrendous nightmare. There are usually at least 3 different versions of any feat with a "select X" clause in them because instead of adding a checkbox they opt to just have the feat "add A" with the same feat adding B C and D seperately.

    For reference, instead of just having a single version of Fighting Initiate, there is a seperate version granting each fighting style individually. In retrospect, this has been an ongoing problem but the more feats they add the more bothersome it has become.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-07-31 at 09:19 PM.

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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    I looked though the table of contents and what has been posted here.

    All I really want to know is what the warforged feats do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    I looked though the table of contents and what has been posted here.

    All I really want to know is what the warforged feats do.
    Basically it brings back Sentinel and Juggernaut from Wayfinder's Guide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    I looked though the table of contents and what has been posted here.

    All I really want to know is what the warforged feats do.
    Envoy is essentially the same, Juggernaut isn't actually very similar to the old version at all.

    Envoy grants you a +1 of your choice and gives you then integrated tool feature(limited to an artisan’s tool, forgery kit, herbalism kit, poisoner’s kit, thieves’ tools, or a musical instrument weighing 10lbs or less) and expertise with that tool. No more language or additional skill proficiency.

    Juggernaut gives a +1 Str or Con, allows you to use Con to decide your AC using the current integrated protection model if you choose to integrate light or medium armor. If you integrate heavy armor you gain advantage on Str Saves and Strength (Athletics) checks to resist being knocked prone or moved. Any integrated armor also cannot be targeted by any effect against your will (heat metal is called out here).
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-07-31 at 10:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Envoy is essentially the same, Juggernaut isn't actually very similar to the old version at all.

    Envoy grants you a +1 of your choice and gives you then integrated tool feature(limited to an artisan’s tool, forgery kit, herbalism kit, poisoner’s kit, thieves’ tools, or a musical instrument weighing 10lbs or less) and expertise with that tool. No more language or additional skill proficiency.

    Juggernaut gives a +1 Str or Con, allows you to use Con to decide your AC using the current integrated protection model if you choose to integrate light or medium armor. If you integrate heavy armor you gain advantage on Str Saves and Strength (Athletics) checks to resist being knocked prone or moved. Any integrated armor also cannot be targeted by any effect against your will (heat metal is called out here).
    That seems really weak for envoy and really strong for Juggernaut.

    I might can do something with the Juggernaut feat...

    and so my plotting begins.

    P.S. Nothing on the scout archetype?
    Last edited by Misterwhisper; 2020-07-31 at 10:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Misterwhisper View Post
    That seems really weak for envoy and really strong for Juggernaut.

    I might can do something with the Juggernaut feat...

    and so my plotting begins.

    P.S. Nothing on the scout archetype?
    Negative. Nothing on that.

    Here's the list of Feats

    Changeling Changeling Metamorphosis
    Changeling Focused Personas
    Elf (Aereni) Aereni Halflife
    Kalashtar Quori Bond
    Kalashtar Thoughtsinger
    Shifter Superior Shifting
    Warforged Envoy Specialist
    Warforged Juggernaut Plating

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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    Quote Originally Posted by jaappleton View Post
    Shifter Superior Shifting
    In broad strokes, what does this one do? I... miss.... [Shifter] feats.
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    Default Re: New Eberron Book Today

    Quote Originally Posted by Amechra View Post
    In broad strokes, what does this one do? I... miss.... [Shifter] feats.
    Superior Shifting
    Prerequisite: Shifter
    • Choose one of the ability scores affected by your subrace’s
    Ability Score Increase. Increase this ability score by 1, to a
    maximum of 20.
    • When you transform via your Shifting trait, the transformation lasts for
    ten minutes, or until you die. You can end it early as a bonus action.
    • You can use your Shifting trait one additional time. You
    regain all uses when you complete a short / long rest.

    Whats important to note is that it says IF YOU DIE. Meaning if you get KO'd or incapacitated, its still ongoing.

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