Is there a Class that offers more Dragon Transformation than Dragon Disciple?

[GrayDeath]

I am asking for a pretty high Power Gestalt Game where the Characters are intending to conquer a Planet at the moment....and one of them, in addition to his overall Power, wants to be a Dragon (and no, getting a super High Level Wizard to polimorph hiom into it wont work, they cant leave the Planet until they conquered it, and it only has lots of Ruins from magical societies while its now Society is a mix of Psionics and strange tech).

Ideally I would be looking for a say 5 Level Epic CLass that gives you the True Second Form of a Alignmentwise fitting Dragon with maybe some boosts while in non Dragon Form.

Since I have nearly no drag Mag stuff, and didnt find anything even in the Draconomicon .... Help pelase?


OK, the basic Info necessary:

I am level 18 Gestalt. I need to keep all the levels I ahve so far (well, I could get rid of up to 2 if we used retraining and keep the things I need/want, but we dont...).

Some time within the next 2 to 3 Levels, I am looking for (in Order of Prefecerence):

A Class of say 5 Levels that gives me a fully natural Dragon Alternate Form of AT LEAST my HD, ideally more (as as an optimized Character I am more powerful than an equal HD Dragon by qhquite a bit).

A Way to achieve a secondary Dragon Form another way (some cheese is OK, but we cant leave the planet we´re on until weve conquered it, and there are nod ragons on it except my 14 HD Blue Dragon Cohort...).

Take over a Dragon in a way that allows me to quickly switch between both forms after doing so, not getting rid of my own Body, it has rolled too well regarding some Mutations (and I am one of 3 heads of a Church aiming for Godhood, the look is Important^^).

Attain enoufgh Draconic characteristics in ADDITION to my existing Body to qualify for taking Dragon feats and Classes, so as to kinda circumvent the problems (by far elast ideal option).

[Troacctid]

Athasian Dragon, from Dragon #339?

[GrayDeath]

As I said, I dont have Drag Mags (except for the one with the Baal Children Rules, yeah, blame Baldurs Gate..

So if you please, explain what an Athasian Dragon is and does?

Pretty please?

[Wildstag]

{Scrubbed} It's an epic-only class.

But you also need to sacrifice at least 1000 HD of living creatures and be able to manifest 6th level powers and cast 9th level spells. A bit hard to believe any reasonable table would reach the ability to enter the PrC.

Edit: I see you said a high-power gestalt game. Definitely easier to enter through that method.

[Buufreak]

Athasian Dragon, from Dragon #339?

This. Hands down ridiculous for the requirements, and you'll already be an epic wizard and psion by the time you enter it, but hell, why not push it to 11?

So if you please, explain what an Athasian Dragon is and does?

Pretty please?

Long and short, it is an epic theurge class that gradually dragons the player. Definitely meant for dark sun, but does solid, ya know, as far as epic goes.

[ShurikVch]

That's the transformation chart (2E version):

[NigelWalmsley]

You could let him progress as a Dragon on one side of his Gestalt. Which could be tuned a whole bunch of ways (CR v HD v ECL) to hit the power level you want.

[Gruftzwerg]

Dragon Wild Shape feat from Draconomicon? Kicks in earliest at lvl 12 ( 15 ranks in knowledge nature).

Or how about a Psychoactive Skin of Proteus (psionic item) instead of class feature? It's limited to 7HD forms thou.

[Zanos]

A wizard can just cast wish to turn himself into one with spellcraft checks, or a psion can cast true mind switch with a dragon that you find or conjure up with the dragon ally spell line.

If you're looking for something less stupid then 'just use a 9th level spell/power' I recommend just using one of the characters gestalt sides as their dragon progression, as Nigel suggested. You'd have to make some stuff up for epic but a young gold dragon is ECL 20 with large size +14 str, +0 dex, and +6 to all other scores, natural armor, very high fly speed, etc. etc. Maybe not the most efficient use of your gestalt but there's certainly a lot of goodness to be had just from dragon racial features.

But again if you're looking at an Epic gestalt game I would think true mind switching would be standard fare...

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read this?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...-Dragons-(WIP)

It's Gestalt.

Just be a dragon, and put the RHD/LA on one of the sides.

[Jervis]

Option 1: Athasian Dragon (Dragon 339)

Someone already mentioned this but if you want a high power character that turns into a dragon, this is what you go for. It's a epic level PrC that requires 24 ranks in Arcana and Psionics, 9th level casting, 6th level manifesting, and a couple roleplay requirements. Any humaniod can do it so long as you're non-good, but you need to spend 50K GP and sacrifice 1,000 hit die worth of living creatures. On the surface this looks like it'll be unusable on anything that isn't evil but you can just kill 1,000 1GP goats, which i'm fairly sure qualifies as a neutral act. The cheaper option would be chickens if the DM rules that 4 1/4th hit die creatures count as 1 hit die. But you're level 21 minimum before taking levels anyway so 51K instead of 50K isn't that bad.

as for features, well you become a dragon. And i don't mean wimpy polymorph any object dragon, i mean a huge dragon with 24 nat armor, 31 spell/power resistance, DC 30+ frightful presence, a breath weapon any true dragon would be impressed by, and in general a bunch of features that will put the fear of god in everyone else and the fear of you in god. But even on a gestalt build this probably isn't gonna happen in the course of a game. It's a 10 level epic class. I recall there being a way to cheese into this 2 levels early with that one feat from ravenloft that increases the skill point cap on Knowledge skills by 2. And any other cheese that lets you get more than max skill ranks and early access to 9th level spells could maybe work.

Option 2: Dragon Racial Class (Dragon 320)

This is what you use when you want to start as a dragon. It's basically a way of gaining LA and abilities slowly. If you're using a gestalt then having the dragon nonsense on one side and a normal build on the other could maybe work, so long as the DM is ok with those dead fake LA levels not having any effect other than not having a Dragon chassis on that level. Which is fantastic chassis BTW, d12 hit die, all good saves, full BaB, and 6 + Int skills IIRC. This is probably an option best used in a Gestalt game where the class is less of a trap option and more of a decent way to play a dragon. I would assume how it would work is that you follow standard Gestalt rules on most levels but treat the 3-4 dead levels that don't give hit die or skills as using your other class only.

Option 3: Polymorph any object

No. Just no. You need to be a Kobold, probably dragonwroght because of course it is, and cast a spell to turn yourself into a crappy dragon without a breath weapon or other abilities, and a dispel magic turns you into a sad Kobold.

Option 4: Mind Switch, True

Not as bad as above. It's permanent for one thing even if you loose a bunch of XP. You swap bodies with a creature, probably a ancient dragon, and get most of it's abilities, but still no breath weapon, so you need to get that from a class or something. You keep spells and class features in general so that shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Option 5: Wish

I know Wish is a meme but hey if the DM allows the "LoL Wish can do everything" version then it can work. Same for miracle.

Option 6: Epic Magic Seed: Transform

This just works. In theory you can just make a spell that turns you into a dragon. Not something you're likely to do but you can try to make a spell that does that.

[Zanos]

Option 5: Wish

I know Wish is a meme but hey if the DM allows the "LoL Wish can do everything" version then it can work. Same for miracle.

Savage Species specifically lists as wishing to permanently turn yourself into another creature with all their abilities as an 'unsafe' wish, but then outlines rules for how to make it unsafe if the DM wants to discourage using wish for this. TL;DR having a +39 spellcraft bonus makes it irrelevant.

[GrayDeath]

You could let him progress as a Dragon on one side of his Gestalt. Which could be tuned a whole bunch of ways (CR v HD v ECL) to hit the power level you want.

Yeah, we already did that once. This time its not a thing for 3 reasons:

1.: The Character, all characters actually, already exists.
So if he true mind switched or whatever, he would not exchange a Gestalt Side for a Dragon, but simple become one with his HD and the CLasses.

So it hed to be

2.: Some form of Magic/Mind Switch/Psionics/Whatever:

Even IF there were a suitable Dragon at hand, sadly until we manage to escape the planet/ergo conquer it, the only resident Dragon is the Charactors Dragon Cohort, which, obviously, is of lower HD...

Dragon Wild Shape feat from Draconomicon? Kicks in earliest at lvl 12 ( 15 ranks in knowledge nature).

Or how about a Psychoactive Skin of Proteus (psionic item) instead of class feature? It's limited to 7HD forms thou.

Problems: Its temporary, and its too low HD.


So no, the easy way of using a gestalt side wont work.

We actually need a takeable Class or Attainable Template (being in question already is an abberation due to ...strange decisions).

PaO: Specifically told not to use it.

So yeah, what we need is a Class or researchable Template.

Sigh, seems Homebrew it is again.

Thanks for all the ahrd looking. :)

[Zanos]

Even IF there were a suitable Dragon at hand, sadly until we manage to escape the planet/ergo conquer it, the only resident Dragon is the Charactors Dragon Cohort, which, obviously, is of lower HD...

Do you have access to arcane casting? You can actually call dragons up to 22HD with greater dragon ally.

Normally you would negotiate with it but if you're epic level characters you should be able to force the issue.

[SangoProduction]

In Spheres of Power, you've got the Shifter class.

It focuses on the Alteration sphere, obviously. Pick talents appropriate to the form you want to take on, and the class offers an essentially all-day transformation very quickly. And you can take on other forms too, when so desired. I provide a good overview on the class and options presented here, if so desired.

Of course, Spheres of Power also has the Transformation feat (and its resultant chain), which basically grants a secondary form, rather than simply one of the various options you can shift into, and its permanent. It's as true a form as the one before taking the feat(s).

The first option is a class, but encompasses more potential than asked for. The second one is not a class, but basically gets exactly what you want.

[nedz]

It depends what you want. There are plenty of Draconic Sorceror feats which give you all of the abilities — Dragonheart Mage is the culmination of this approach.

Then there's Dragonfire adept — which is a different approach again.

If your requirement is strictly I want to be a Dragon then you have to eat the HD on one side of your gestalt.

Incidentally: would a Dragonblood race suffice ?

[GrayDeath]

Do you have access to arcane casting? You can actually call dragons up to 22HD with greater dragon ally.

Normally you would negotiate with it but if you're epic level characters you should be able to force the issue.

Okay, seems more info is needed.

We are, as I wrote, stucxk on a World. it is planarly locked away so that we can with luck summon things hre (50% fail chance) but nothing called can ever leave.
So summoning a Dragon powerful enough to make sense to try and take over is....iffy.
Not to mention the Character himself has no real casting (due to extreme luck when falling into the remains of a Dead Gods last Temple he has access to the Destruction Domain, thats it.. otherwise only Maneuvers and mundane Stuff.


Also, to all suggesting to use one Gestalt Side to be a Dragon: How?
Both Sides are in sue (and neededd so even if he could reach a place of retraining that allows to change it, which he cant, it would be out.

he is at the moment a highly optimized Dark Chaosblessed Warforged Warblade/Rogue///Rogue/Telflammar Shadowlord/Master of the 9/Legacy Champion with total level 18. And lots of Juggling.
Yeah, being in a group with a Half Ilithid Psion and a Sorcerer/Arcane Hierophant (homebrewed Feat that gave the ability to do so) is hard.^^

In Spheres of Power, you've got the Shifter class.

It focuses on the Alteration sphere, obviously. Pick talents appropriate to the form you want to take on, and the class offers an essentially all-day transformation very quickly. And you can take on other forms too, when so desired. I provide a good overview on the class and options presented here, if so desired.

Of course, Spheres of Power also has the Transformation feat (and its resultant chain), which basically grants a secondary form, rather than simply one of the various options you can shift into, and its permanent. It's as true a form as the one before taking the feat(s).

The first option is a class, but encompasses more potential than asked for. The second one is not a class, but basically gets exactly what you want.

OK, I checked it. Sadly we dont use Sphere Casting, but as far as I udnerstand it, this at most allows to assume something "Like" a Dragon, that is called Dragon Form but doesnt do much else?
Which while cool, isnt what I`m looking for.

It depends what you want. There are plenty of Draconic Sorceror feats which give you all of the abilities — Dragonheart Mage is the culmination of this approach.

Then there's Dragonfire adept — which is a different approach again.

If your requirement is strictly I want to be a Dragon then you have to eat the HD on one side of your gestalt.

Incidentally: would a Dragonblood race suffice ?

Nope.
Also changing the Base Race permanentlky is out, as our DM deems us too steeped in Chaos to survive the attempt. I need an ability that allows me to change into a Dragon, take over a Dragon (without the bakclash dangers^^) or ...maybe fuse with one?
Changing the OP accordingly.


Still, the Game just got shot for 4+ months, so at elast we ahve time to find a solution.

Thank you all.

[Fouredged Sword]

Why play one dragon when you can play 5?

Dragonborn Cleric 14 / Contemplative 6 // anything else.

Exchange turn undead for rebuke dragons.
Take the Fire and Cold domain. This nets you Rebuke Fire creature and Rebuke Cold creature
Use the contemplative class to get the water and earth domain. This gets you Rebuke water creature and Rebuke earth creature.

Gold dragon - Rebuke with Rebuke Dragon
Silver Dragon - Rebuke with Rebuke Cold Creature
Brass - Rebuke Fire Creature
Copper - Rebuke Earth Creature
Bronze - Rebuke Water Creature

Now, you can rebuke a dragon of each standard metallic type with separate control pools. You just need to bypass the restriction that they be half your HD for you to exert control. Well, this is actually easy. You just need to apply temporary negative levels to them until they are under half your HD, then apply control. As long as they do not exceed your HD after the negative levels wear off you can continue to control them as they do not exceed your control pool.

So, at level 20 that means

An adult Brass dragon with 1 class level
A young adult Bronze dragon with 2 class levels
An adult Copper dragon
A young adult gold dragon
And a young adult silver dragon with 1 class level.

Spend your other side of the gestalt how you wish. You have 100HD of dragons at your beck and call.

If you have alignment issues you can drop dragonborn and pass on ether gold or brass dragons. It's still 80HD of dragon to throw at things.

[SangoProduction]

OK, I checked it. Sadly we dont use Sphere Casting, but as far as I udnerstand it, this at most allows to assume something "Like" a Dragon, that is called Dragon Form but doesnt do much else?
Which while cool, isnt what I`m looking for.

Yeah. Dragon Form to get you the basic template form, and comes with breath weapons, and gets a default bite. Claw attacks come with the base sphere. Size Change allows for emulation of older dragons. For flying, I'd recommend the Avian transformation for the speed closer to what dragons have. But you can also take Elemental Transformation, Dedicated, to pick up a trait for perfect fly speed. I think some dragons have spell resistance, which could be gotten as a trait from Construct Form.
And that'd get you all the physical aspects of a Dragon.

For other emulations of their magic abilities, you can look to other spheres. A moot point, as you're not using them, and the game's on a quarter year hiatus.

[Asmotherion]

Yeah. Be a Full Caster. You'll eventually get access to Polymorph Any Object, and you'll be able to permanently turn yourself into an actual Dragon...

[nedz]

So basically we have an 18th level Warforged Rogue//Initiator who wants to be a Dragon.

That's going to be tricky.

I've looked at the Reforged PrC (Races of Eberon p162) but the Final Reforging class feature doesn't specify a change of type — so you may still be a Construct, it's unclear. It's only 3 levels though, and can free up some feats.

You are close to Epic, so looking in the ELH we have Epic Leadership (p37) which can get you a Dragon cohort. You would need Cha 25, Leadership with a score of 25+

Dragon Wild shape is a thing, but I suspect that you aren't going to qualify.

It should be possible to do this with an Epic spell, though I'm not an expert on that system and I don't even know if it is available at your table.

[GrayDeath]

Oh everything`s possible with Epic magic (TM), which is why it doesnt exist in our Games.

Each Caster may, if he is very lucky, be able to develope a new 9th Level Spell or remake one without any Disaddvantages, but thats it in our games. No stupidly abusable magic f here...

[nedz]

Yeah, we don't use it either.

Rule 0 magic occasionally — but that's rarely a PC thing.

[Edivdrone]

Sadly, since you are dealing with an existing character with little to no casting ability, the answer is not really. The closest thing within the restrictions that you are giving would be to open up Races of the Dragon, and look at the Dragonblooded feat tree, and also check out the Dragon Descended template. There are additional options in Dragon Magic that you may find interesting in that general theme.

If you are willing to consider major rework of your character, and your DM is willing to allow it, Player's Handbook II has rules for rebuilding a character. The next OK would be to see if the DM is willing to allow Encyclopedia Arcane: Conjuration (By Bell, Book, and Candle) by Mongoose Publishing. The prestige class Dragonchilde is detailed in there, which the final level of the class is rebirth as a wyrmling dragon. Full arcane casting class, so yeah, possibly not for your character.

If retooling your character to be a caster isn't something you're willing to look at, then getting someone else to perform seriously hardcore magic your only viable option to become a True Dragon. "I'm a Dragon!" as one wish is should be out, yes, but Polymorph Any Object followed by the wishes that the duration be instantaneous, that your Draconis Fundamentum be fully awakened with you getting full access to it's abilities, that your purely physical traits be matched to your form while being adjusted for your experience and exceptionalism (convert your gained HD for the HD of your form, a power balance factor your DM will likely appreciate, and change your base physical stats to from 10s to those of the dragon form you use), that you obtain the supernatural and spell-like abilities appropriate for your form, and then, finally, that you be a True Dragon. That is a path a DM might consider acceptable, given the costs involved. If deemed acceptable, you should expect the caster to demand that the spells be performed in a ritual fashion to pass the XP costs to your character.

Hope you find something to your liking in here.

[Edivdrone]

As I said, I dont have Drag Mags (except for the one with the Baal Children Rules, yeah, blame Baldurs Gate..

Google them. They have online access to nearly all their publications and all issues of Dragon Magazine.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1. Divine Minion for +1 LA gets Wild Shape as a Druid 11 at will, but only into one or a few specific forms.

2. Master of Many Forms adds its level to your effective Druid level, and adds additional creature types and sizes for Wild Shaping.

3. Dragon Wild Shape in the Draconomicon as others have mentioned allows you to take the form of a small or medium dragon, within the (inflated) HD limitation of your effective Druid level. Since there's no daily limit to your base Wild Shape ability the duration is irrelevant.

4. Take Assume Supernatural Ability in Savage Species to gain the breath weapon of any dragon whose form you take.


Granted you're limited to small and medium dragons, so the highest HD dragon form you can take is around 16 or so for a Steel Dragon, but it's a start. At level 21 there's the epic version of Dragon Wild Shape, but that requires Knowledge: Nature 30 ranks so your minimum level for that is 27.

[Edivdrone]

If you are still looking at this thread, I've remembered an option that might interest you, though it will involved a near total character overhaul.
Ranger with the wild shape variant (Unearthed Arcana pg. 58). Then jump into the Master of Many Forms (CAd). Given your stated build and levels, you'd probably be happiest giving up some of your Warblade levels for this.
Now, this approach has obvious draw backs. First, you need Assume Supernatural Ability from Savage Species, and other issues, but it would grant you access to whatever form, not just draconic, you found most useful for what you were doing. Potentially exceedingly useful for your rogue functions. ESPECIALLY if you also wind up taking 5 levels in Warshaper (CW), which would allow you to switch between any form available to you via wild shape, except your own, without expending additional uses of wild shape.

Personal note; if you take this path, check if your DM would be OK with dropping the animal companion class feature to fuel your personal connection to nature, and exchange the class expertise features for 1-2 feats from Savage Species. After all, that animal companion is going to quickly fall very far behind the power curve.

[Demidos]

Maybe find a psionic dragon you can dominate and have it cast fusion on the PC, thus fusing their stats and taking the best option?

[RaiKirah]

The Half-Dragon template can be taken in three levels and will give you the Dragon type, then a single level of Shaper of Form will let you use Modify Self (Renaissance) to change your race to anything that shares a Type and doesn't have an LA (pretty clearly intended to LA 0, but worded such that LA - is a legal target, and LA 0 may not be). The way it interacts with RHD is decidedly unclear, but it does let you turn into a dragon. The character will also need to dip a spellcasting class to qualify for Shaper of Form, but all told it would take 5 levels.

[SangoProduction]

It's also possible to use my Dragon Ascendant class, which is more of a "build your dragon," than a preset allocation of class features that never gives out the parts you want quick enough to "feel" like you're a dragon. Want to focus on the natural attacks - the true brutal strength of a dragon? You can do that. What about the breath weapon and spells? You can do that too.

Admittedly, I did just recently rebalance it to be more in line with other mid-caster classes in Spheres of Power. A lot of complaints about how it was too easy to get it to be fully magically competent in multiple sphere. So you can still do the spells, just not quite as well.