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2020-07-31, 05:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
the theros book introduced a rare +1 sling called the two birds sling and its absolutely wretched. if you hit with an attack with it, you can make another attack. there's no once per turn limit. you keep hitting untill you miss
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2020-07-31, 05:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
Wrong on several counts. It says when you make a ranged attack with the sling you may make a second attack if the first one hits. It also says you can only attack someone else within 10 ft of the original target.
That means that the second roll does not come from the sling, so you don’t get to make an additional attack if the second attack hits.
It’s a useful ability because it can potentially double your attacks if enemies are close enough together. It doesn’t allow you to create an infinite feedback loop.
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2020-07-31, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
That could be incredible in the hands of a fighter with the archery fighting style.
I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2020-07-31, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
i know about the 10 foot limit, and was counting it in my analysis (you can get around it by targeting objects between you and your opponent) but the wording is ambiguous. the second attack still arguably comes from the sling, but even if it doesn't count, you can still effectively double your number of attacks. since successive attacks from the sling can riccochet
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2020-07-31, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
That is because The Theros book had no oversight by development teams.
They only include it on DND beyond for the money.
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2020-07-31, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
No. The first shot specifically says from the sling. The second attack is not a shot from the sling. It’s a ricochet. If it allowed more than one extra attack it would say so explicitly.
It’s only ambiguous if you want to make it ambiguous.
This is literally a non issue.
1) all dnd books are there for money. So what?
2) so Jeremy Crawford is no longer a designer in dnd? Chris Perkins is no longer a designer? James Wyatt?
If you’re going to start throwing around bull crap, you should at least make it something that takes longer then 10 seconds to disprove
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2020-08-01, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2016
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
You have a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with this weapon.
When you make a ranged attack with this sling and hit a target, you can cause the ammunition to ricochet toward a second target within 10 feet of the first, and then make a ranged attack against the second target.
It's good, but not OP. The operative word is second target. It doubles attacks. Considering it's a +1 sling, i wouldn't worry too much about it.
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2020-08-01, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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2020-08-01, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
Last edited by Yunru; 2020-08-01 at 12:43 PM.
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2020-08-01, 12:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2019
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
You don't get to keep laying on attacks with this weapon. I'm really unsure why this is confusing. IF you successfully hit on the attack, you get to make a second and then that's it. You don't make a third attack if the second hits, this isn't a compounding thing here.
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2020-08-01, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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2020-08-01, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2019
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
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2020-08-01, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
It's only 16 attacks if the 8 "normal" ones all hit, and if you're going 8 for 8 on your normal attacks, you're probably looking at trash monsters that don't justify expending resources like Action Surge.
On the other hand, with Volley, yeah, that could be broken, if you have one tough enemy surrounded by a bunch of weak ones, and you riccochet from all of the weak ones onto the tough one: Now you're getting an attack in on each of the weak enemies, AND getting in a bunch of attacks on the strong one.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2020-08-01, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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2020-08-01, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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2020-08-02, 05:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
If there are 160 HP of "trash" monsters tightly packed as only part of an encounter... yes, action surge sounds like a plausibly good plan.
Of course, that is also the damage output of a 6 target fireball. And at level 11 a 3rd level spell slot is cheaper than action surge.
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2020-08-02, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2015
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!
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2020-08-03, 09:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Inner Palace, Holy Terra
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Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
It's a ranged weapon, so why not Sharpshooter?
Now it's (10+5+1d4+1)*<Attacks> = 296 mean damage.
Also, it doesn't take 16 tightly formed low-health enemies, it just takes 2 within 10 feet. All 8 lead attacks target one for 148 damage, and then the 8 ricochets all hit the second one for 148. That's like double a twinned disintegrate.Last edited by LordCdrMilitant; 2020-08-03 at 09:07 AM.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
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2020-08-03, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
Afb but, does this sling work with magic stone?
avatar by Elrond
"You should just homebrew the world's tiniest violin for your bard."
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2020-08-03, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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2020-08-03, 04:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2019
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
Martials are too weak! Martials are too strong!
Get over yourselves GitP forum.
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2020-08-03, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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2020-08-03, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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2020-08-03, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
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Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
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2020-08-03, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
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2020-08-04, 05:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2020-08-04, 05:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2019
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
Sure, but you give up something like 27.5 damage per round on the initial target versus a Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter build (assuming a +1 hand crossbow for some equivalency. Realistically if you matched rarity it should probably be a +2). So you're giving up some of your single-target damage to be better at striking multiple targets. At levels before 20 you're giving up even more damage proportionally, since the bonus action attack matters more. Disintegrate isn't a particularly great spell and casters aren't really supposed to be good at single-target damage.
Also, with Sharpshooter, DPR really should take into account miss chance (obviously this doesn't matter when comparing different SS builds, but it does matter when comparing to other forms of damage). Assuming a +9 to hit when using the -5/+10 (aka 20 Dex, Archery Style, and the +1 weapon), you can assume a 65% chance to hit against something with AC 17. So a Level 20 Action Surging Two-Birds slinger will deal 96.2 DPR against two targets with AC 17, 129.87 DPR if you have advantage. So that's like, two Umber Hulks or Githyanki Knights (both have 18 AC and a little over 90 HP). Could probably kill two Frost Giants (AC 15, 138 HP) if you had advantage. While it's certainly good, I wouldn't consider it game-wrecking.The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer
Spoiler: Homebrew of Mine
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2020-08-04, 05:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
Being more realistic with the accuracy you might realistically hit 5 of your 8 initial attacks, and then 3 of those 5, for 8 hits. That's 8d4+48, for an average of 68 damage split between 2 targets minimum. If there's only one target available (or only one target worth noting because the rest are chaff that are about to be fireballed into oblivion anyways, or just more than 10 feet away) that drops to 5d4+30, for a whopping 42.5 damage.
Now compare a +2 longbow, which is roughly equivalent magic wise. I'll assume you hit the same 5 attacks (though a +1 actually has a decent chance of making a difference with 8), and that you're striking for d8+7 each time. That's 5d8+35, for 57.5 damage, which you actually can use on just one target. Roughly 10 damage less in the two nearby meaningful targets case (and remember, the accuracy difference shrinks this), roughly 15 more in the one target case.
That fundamentally doesn't look broken. There are specific situations where it'll really shine (you get the drop on a tough creature and its 8 nearby low AC low HP minions), there are situations where it's pretty bad (spread out targets, one enemy, you have disadvantage), it seems pretty balanced.
The hypothetical infinite cascading sling is a lot stronger, though even there it's maybe a 3x attack for substantially less than 3x damage situation (hitting on 7s or 8s regularly).I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2020-08-04, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
It's still broken with Volley, though. Consider a fight of one boss with some minions, say, eight of them. With a normal weapon, an 11th level ranger would have a choice of making two or maybe three (if he has some sort of bonus action attack) on the boss, or one each on the boss and each of the minions. Both are good options, so it's a meaningful choice. With this thing, though, the ranger can make one attack each on the minions, and nine attacks on the boss. You need a 20th-level fighter with Action Surge and a bonus action to match that number of attacks on the boss, and you're still also damaging everything else, too.
What's worse, it changes all of those minions from being a help to the boss (even if only a minor one) to a hindrance: The boss would last a lot longer if he didn't have all those minions around him. An ability like Volley that reduces the value of minions is fine. But an ability that reduces their value to negatives is whacked.Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2020-08-04, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2019
Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell
Like, aside from the fact that that sounds like an awesome thing that I would totally want to see happen, how often do you see a toughie boss with eight weak minions within 10 feet of them? I doubt most tactically-minded DMs would do something like that frequently, because it makes all of those enemies incredibly vulnerable to things like Fireball and Hypnotic Pattern.
Also, it's a maximum of nine attacks on the boss. If you miss any attacks on the minions, you can't make the rebound attack on the boss. Each "attack" on the boss is similar to an attack at disadvantage, since you need to hit both the minion and the boss in sequence.Last edited by AdAstra; 2020-08-04 at 08:33 AM.
The stars are calling, but let's come up with a good opening line before we answer
Spoiler: Homebrew of Mine