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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2017

    Default Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell

    Quote Originally Posted by LordCdrMilitant View Post
    It's a ranged weapon, so why not Sharpshooter?

    Now it's (10+5+1d4+1)*<Attacks> = 296 mean damage.

    Also, it doesn't take 16 tightly formed low-health enemies, it just takes 2 within 10 feet. All 8 lead attacks target one for 148 damage, and then the 8 ricochets all hit the second one for 148. That's like double a twinned disintegrate.
    Well, the key there is to actually hit. Sling samurai with Elven accuracy, anyone? Now you just need a green tunic and you're officially a cosplayer!

    Honestly, a fighter dealing more damage than a twinned disintegrate seems correct and fair to me. Martials should do more damage than spellcasters to a small number of targets. If you add up what a fireball does to a large enough group, you end up with comparable amounts, and that's a third level spell.

    Now, this much more damage is a bit but you do have to spread the damage around a little and high damage archer builds are nothing new. I don't have a huge problemw ith this-except the volley hack that spawns 20 bullets from nowhere, and I only have a problem with that because it's absolutely ludicrous even with magic. I'd prefer it if the number of extra ricochets was limited per day, maybe something like five charges and use a charge to ricochet, etc.
    Last edited by MrCharlie; 2020-08-10 at 12:46 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Chimera

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell

    Quote Originally Posted by MrCharlie View Post
    Well, the key there is to actually hit. Sling samurai with Elven accuracy, anyone? Now you just need a green tunic and you're officially a cosplayer!

    Honestly, a fighter dealing more damage than a twinned disintegrate seems correct and fair to me. Martials should do more damage than spellcasters to a small number of targets. If you add up what a fireball does to a large enough group, you end up with comparable amounts, and that's a third level spell.

    Now, this much more damage is a bit but you do have to spread the damage around a little and high damage archer builds are nothing new.
    Generally agree. Doing lots of combat damage is what fighters are supposed to do. There was a build in 3e (Hulking Hurler, if anyone cares) that was this but even moreso -- the damage it could do was for all intents and purposes infinite given the HP totals in the game, yet it hardly was the most OP thing in the game. What it did do was skew how the game played out -- DMs (when they ran into it) using lots of deception, throwing physical attack-immune creatures disproportionately into the mix, setting up the dungeon such that ranged combat was less of a sure thing, etc. I don't see that happening with this (although having exactly two big-bads who stand conspicuously close to each other just became even rarer). What I do see with this is the other guy in the party who wanted to do physical combat feeling wildly outclassed. Sadly, that's already the case with 5e: the TWF fighter or sword and board featless character who was keeping pace at level 1 is not going to be keeping pace with a PAM/GWM halberder, SS/XBE archer, etc. already. This just exacerbates the existing within-martial disparity. Again, not to say that I think it is brilliant design work, I just don't see it as a huge threat to the game working.

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2017

    Default Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie the Duck View Post
    Generally agree. Doing lots of combat damage is what fighters are supposed to do. There was a build in 3e (Hulking Hurler, if anyone cares) that was this but even moreso -- the damage it could do was for all intents and purposes infinite given the HP totals in the game, yet it hardly was the most OP thing in the game. What it did do was skew how the game played out -- DMs (when they ran into it) using lots of deception, throwing physical attack-immune creatures disproportionately into the mix, setting up the dungeon such that ranged combat was less of a sure thing, etc. I don't see that happening with this (although having exactly two big-bads who stand conspicuously close to each other just became even rarer). What I do see with this is the other guy in the party who wanted to do physical combat feeling wildly outclassed. Sadly, that's already the case with 5e: the TWF fighter or sword and board featless character who was keeping pace at level 1 is not going to be keeping pace with a PAM/GWM halberder, SS/XBE archer, etc. already. This just exacerbates the existing within-martial disparity. Again, not to say that I think it is brilliant design work, I just don't see it as a huge threat to the game working.
    I remember the hulking hurler! I think my group finally abandoned that madness when half the party was larger than the dungeons we were attempting to enter, and also capable (and willing, being several flavors of demonic aberration) to throw the entire thing into the stratosphere.

    Anyway, I feel slightly better for sword/boards given that pretty much all artifact level weapons that I know of are one-handed and some are actually strong enough to close the gap (still), although TWFers still have a tough time of it.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2006

    Default Re: The Two-birds sling is broken as hell

    So a level 20 fighter with a 25 strength belt runs up and GWM flametongue attacks a foe at +8 to hit at 4d6+17 (31) damage per hit, 8 times for 248. On one target. No subclass abilities used.

    Suppose advantage and AC 20, then 70% hit chance 10% crit chance for 184.8 average damage.

    This does 148 on one target and (only if all of those hit) 148 on the second. Suppose 22 dex, advantage, champion, and elven advantage on AC 20. 11+ to hit for 88% hit chance 38% crit chance.

    7 hits on primary target, 6.2 on secondary, 5.7 crits. 1d4+16 (18.5) damage per hit. 258.5 total damage.

    Or a level 20 elf fighter with 22 dex and a flametongue double scimitar does 17d4 + 18d6 + 54 = 159.5 at +12 to hit; lets say this is a champion and has advantage and elven accuracy on 20 AC. 95% hit chance, 38% crit chance, so 192 average damage.

    Secondary target damage is worth about 1/2 primary target damage, so even when there are two targets the GWM flametongue, or flametongue double scimitar, is usually more useful. And when there aren't two targets, this is "only" 137.8 single target damage.

    And without advantage, the tap damage is 8.5 at +14 vs 21 at +13 vs 18 at +12.

    (Gear used: Tome to get 22 dex on dex builds, belt to get 25 strength on strength builds, flametongue weapons vs two-bird sling).
    Last edited by Yakk; 2020-08-10 at 02:26 PM.

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