Ironically, Goblins make great PCs!

[Goblin_Priest]

Interestingly hobgoblins are LA +0 in Pathfinder 1st ed.

PF is easier to balance because all PC races basically got a buff, imo. Hobgoblins remain strong and really potent to min-max, but we aren't on drow noble level...

[Kardwill]

And no matter who does it, stealth involves a continuous series of rolls, and it's inevitable that the player(s) will end up rolling poorly.

Yeah, for any kind of stealth approach to succeed in RPGs, the GM really needs to let go of this "multiple rolls until you fail" nonsense, and come up with another way to do it. I'm trying to go with the "let the first roll stick" principle, both for stealth, climbing and sometimes diplomacy. You make one roll at the beginning of the scene, and you stick with it until you change approach or you go outside your initial goal.

So, if you want to assassinate the Orc chieftain, a roll of 22 will get you through the outside perimeter guards (DC10), sneak around the guys eating around the firepit (DC15), and get into the chieftain's tent (DC18). But if you want to follow that weird-looking shaman that you saw on your way out, you'll have to take a risk and do another roll, because you're basically starting a new chain of actions.

Another possibility : failing at stealth means a complication to overcome, or needing to find another way in because there's a sentry in the way, and not a boring "roll for initiative".

For the group thing, I like to use some form of "group challenge" mecanic, such as having half the players succeed, or needing to get to a common level of success, or using teamwork rules if they exist in the RPG I'm playing. The ninjas cover for the clunky ones, play recon, draw the attention of the guards, select a safe route...

Combining those could lessen the "let's just charge, since stealth is doomed" problem that makes any infiltration suicidal AND boring in most RPGs. Or at least I hope so...

[Quizatzhaderac]

Is there any fluff on goblins, in core or otherwise? Like what their society's are like, their attitudes, et cetra?

Like if I said goblins highly value manners and propriety and their favorite recreation is drawing pictures of kittens with short comedic phrases, would there by anything to contradict that?

Doing a quick search of only 3.5e core, one just seems to know that they're "usually evil" and that the player can expect small groups to be entirely soldiers.

[RatElemental]

I think it largely depends on setting, but the forgotten realms wiki has pretty extensive articles on goblins, including a description of their culture in every edition.

The 3e version says goblins are often kept as slaves by other goblinoids, most often hobgoblins, but that when left to their own devices had a tribal culture with little to no concept of privacy. All but the leaders would sleep in large communal areas which were often not the most sanitary places, and young goblins are taught that to survive you need to be ruthless and care more for yourself than anyone else. Such cultures are also patriarchal, with female goblins being expected to have as many kids as possible to keep population up despite the constant raiding and violence.

[dude123nice]

To clarify, especially for non DnD players, Goblins are better than any Core race save humans and dwarves.

[Goblin_Priest]

Yeah, for any kind of stealth approach to succeed in RPGs, the GM really needs to let go of this "multiple rolls until you fail" nonsense, and come up with another way to do it. I'm trying to go with the "let the first roll stick" principle, both for stealth, climbing and sometimes diplomacy. You make one roll at the beginning of the scene, and you stick with it until you change approach or you go outside your initial goal.

So, if you want to assassinate the Orc chieftain, a roll of 22 will get you through the outside perimeter guards (DC10), sneak around the guys eating around the firepit (DC15), and get into the chieftain's tent (DC18). But if you want to follow that weird-looking shaman that you saw on your way out, you'll have to take a risk and do another roll, because you're basically starting a new chain of actions.

Another possibility : failing at stealth means a complication to overcome, or needing to find another way in because there's a sentry in the way, and not a boring "roll for initiative".

For the group thing, I like to use some form of "group challenge" mecanic, such as having half the players succeed, or needing to get to a common level of success, or using teamwork rules if they exist in the RPG I'm playing. The ninjas cover for the clunky ones, play recon, draw the attention of the guards, select a safe route...

Combining those could lessen the "let's just charge, since stealth is doomed" problem that makes any infiltration suicidal AND boring in most RPGs. Or at least I hope so...

The issue with "single roll for all" is that it's not very thrilling or climactic. It's basically "roll once and then watch it out". Which isn't really great, any more than save or dies are fun. This contrats with traditional combat, where successive rolls chip away at the enemy's pool, until the cumulative successes reach their target, and where failure is simply lack of progress (offensively speaking). Martial combat has little defense, it's really just both sides rolling against target difficulties.

For stealth to be more fun, I think it needs to have some of that cumulative progress. Or maybe at least floating averages. Don't know.