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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2013

    Default Astral Seed + Fusion

    hey guys, so i was wondering. If you manifest astral seed while under fusion then fusion ends, is it the original manifester that gets to jump to the seed or is it whichever constituent dies first?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: Astral Seed + Fusion

    Your astral seed produces a copy of the fused being, with all its abilities, stats, and so on. Since fusion generally grants control to the manifester, presumably the astral seed clone is under the manifester's control. Ask your DM, though--the problem of determining control has been used to shut down the fusion + astral seed combination.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Astral Seed + Fusion

    Fusion doesn't say you are a being of one mind and flat out says that one or the other has control over the body. I would say Astral seed would require 2 casts, one for each mind who casts in control for both to benefit. Putting it a different way memories and experiences fuse as that is a physical aspect of your brain, but the conceptual aspect of you is not fused.
    Last edited by Darg; 2020-08-03 at 10:10 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zanos's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Astral Seed + Fusion

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    Your astral seed produces a copy of the fused being, with all its abilities, stats, and so on. Since fusion generally grants control to the manifester, presumably the astral seed clone is under the manifester's control. Ask your DM, though--the problem of determining control has been used to shut down the fusion + astral seed combination.
    This is a relatively long argument but abilities should include their durations. So the fusion would still expire after however much time was left in it when you cast astral seed. You'd then have two copies of the fusee.
    If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: Astral Seed + Fusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanos View Post
    This is a relatively long argument but abilities should include their durations. So the fusion would still expire after however much time was left in it when you cast astral seed. You'd then have two copies of the fusee.
    I'll just--for completeness' sake, not to continue the argument--state the other view, which is that abilities granted by temporary effects do not inhert the duration of the effect that grants them, i.e. abilities that do not normally expire granted by fusion do not inherit fusion's finite duration. Fusion itself is not copied by astral seed, since it is an ongoing effect, not an ability, but the abilities it grants are copied. For example, the ability to activate Rage ability has no duration (the activation does, of course), so astral seed does not copy it with an expiration.

    Compare astral seed to a photocopier. Even though you might only have borrowed a book for ten minutes, copies you make are don't expire when you return the book. Granted, fusion + astral seed is a whole lot more dangerous than book borrowing + photocopiers, but that's part of the fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
    Read ExLibrisMortis' post...

    WHY IS THERE NO LIKE BUTTON?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Oct 2007

    Default Re: Astral Seed + Fusion

    I think it works, but doesn't mean the the resulting creature is your PC.

    Whether Astral Seed makes Fusion permanent is up for debate. Personally, I think that while it shouldn't make effects in general permanent, this particular one may work because it actually creates a new being. So the fact that said being is gone by the time the seed grows doesn't seem to prevent it any more the the usual "being dead" would.

    However, if it is a new being, then the fact that its mind is partially derived from you doesn't mean you now control it as your PC. Like for example, if you permanently mind controlled the Tarrasque, or used diplomancy to make someone a fanatic follower, they're still an NPC; you don't start playing as them.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-08-04 at 04:44 AM.

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