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2020-08-03, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Bravo. Yes, I agree 100%. The Goblins may not be cardboard cutout evil creatures, but that doesn't mean the Dark One is a great person or that Redcloak is anything but a Godwin's Willing Executioner.
We've seen good goblins both in the first book of this story, when we encountered some in the first dungeon, and in Start of Darkness. One goblin, in particular in start of darkness, had a very intelligent and very reasonable approach to improving the lot of things for the species. He was a great character, but Redcloak refused his viewpoint.
We do not know if this world will survive the events of the book , or if it will be remade. But if it is , Redcloak and the Dark One *as they are now* will not succeed. They will either undergo character development, or they will be destroyed and someone else will save the goblin people.
Spoiler
As I recall, a certain someone had a daughter and we haven't heard ANYTHING about her since start of darkness... if she were to show up now it would be a great story move!
My own view: Rich flat up tells us in SOD that Xykon is irredeemably evil but Redcloak might not be. He's kept up this ambiguity for six books up to now, but I think at this point Redcloak has, if not actually crossed the line into irredeemable evil as the villain's permanent henchperson, at least come right up to the line.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2020-08-03, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Redcloak was always really good at being a sympathetic or at least quasi-sympathetic villain, but it's hard to see how he's going to retain that quality going forward. All of his supposedly virtuous motives are revealed as hollow lies. The most you can really say in his defense is that he sometimes hesitates or feels bad... or that he's just a really fundamentally broken and miserable person.
I suspect he might just start breaking down. He had already struck me as being more unstable than usual, given the way he kept cycling through different intense moods when he's normally quite reserved. His rejection of Durkon's offer may remove his ability to keep lying to himself, which wouldn't help his mental state any. He has made a lot of bad choices over his career, but usually he has had to pick between a bad option and a terrible option. Here he had to pick between a terrible option and a fantastic option, literally the best deal of his life, probably better than even the Plan could have delivered. He may have a hard time in the future being able to tell himself that he had no choice. The effect would be even worse if something happened that made his current life even more miserable than before.
Since it is extremely early in the book I suppose there's still a chance he might turn things around. I do think we had to see how bad it was before we had any chance of things getting better, and now we've seen. A lot could happen between here and the end. But as somebody who did want to see him come around, I can't look at this comic and feel confident that it's going to happen.
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2020-08-03, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Been a while since 3.5, but of the top of my head he needs at least 23 (base DC 19 for 9th level spell plus +4 wis mod) or 24 (if RC has at least 20 WIS, which is likely). As an at least 13th level Cleric (as per Geekery thread) he has a base +8 to fort saves, +2 for Dwarven resistance to spells and at least +1 in Con mod (there's no evidence so it's assumed average value for a Dwarf, but as a Cleric it could be +2 or +3), making it +11 to +13 to his save. So more or less an 40 to 50% chance of making the save, give or take.
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2020-08-03, 12:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
A living planet would have bugs and jellyfish in the waters. And no Snarl.
It doesn't rule out the idea someone had that the stars in that planet's sky are planets settled with the inhabitants of previous worlds swallowed by the Snarl. But it's got some folks from OOS-world... and there's little evidence that they are living there.
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2020-08-03, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Once Redcloak had decided to reject his terms killing Durkon makes perfect sense. Redcloak knows that a rejection means the Order are going to fight to stop him, so he might as well kill Durkon while he has the element of surprise rather than face him later with the whole Order backing him up.
Treacherous and dishonorable, but reasonable.Last edited by Jason; 2020-08-03 at 12:57 PM.
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2020-08-03, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
People are complicated and if they've made poor choices in the past they're likely to continue down that path unless forced not to. It becomes familiar.
Stealing to feed a family becomes stealing because it's what you're good at.
Lying to protect yourself leads to suspecting everyone is a threat and lying all the time.
Killing in self defense or killing to defend the community can lead to killing others in other communities just because they might be a threat, or because someone else in that community was a threat. The death penalty lines people up to be systematically killed, and best of all, you don't have to do it yourself. You don't have to see how the sausage is made.
He's always been a character doing the wrong thing for a fairly understandable reason. That's not changed.
This decision is a bit more baffling, but that comes from the perspective of someone with no stake.
Through one show of strength and going the peace route already, peace with humans proved impossible.
Now this man's god has specifically commanded him not to trust humans. Why trust a dwarf more? Why fail to learn the lesson of history which is, from his perspective, other species are potential threats?
Makes sense to him.
So through violence and conquest and terror, the terrorist has learned that he can gain territory.
Why would the terrorist stop now?
This perfectly mirrors how conquerors and terrorists behave in real life. Once they get a cookie, they want a glass of milk.
Redcloak has to not be winning to consider peace. Right now, he thinks he's winning and that his plan will succeed, and that if the gods are sending Durkon the merciful to hammer out another deal that sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good.
So if he disarms his terrorist plan, he'll just be vulnerable. There is no peace to be made with your enemies. Their honeyed lies are meaningless. The plan must continue.
The plan must continue.
Makes perfect sense to Redcloak. Only we, the audience, through the eyes of the author, can know for sure that Durkon's intentions are sincere, let alone the Gods or the Azurites he is speaking for.
I can't even guarantee the Azurites would go for this, nor can I speak for the gods of this universe.
A lot of them are scheming, petty, untrustworthy jerks who hold grudges and treat mortals like commodities. Slaves, even.
I can't guarantee Durkon's compromise plan would ever work for the goblins, and I know that's the story Rich is trying to tell. People are untrustworthy and complicated and they do seek revenge.
Why give up all your holdings and stakes and power on the chance your enemy is telling you the truth?
Seems quite reasonable to me, if you don't have TMI.
But we, as audience members, do.
Redcloak only knows what he's seen: humans are treacherous genocidal exterminators who will crusade against goblins for no reason at all, other than the fact that they exist. And now they even have a strong reason to do so, since Gobbotopia is a stationary target and it belonged to the Azurites who have wacky, insane crusaders for sure.
He knows that the last time his God parlayed with the humans, and he talked peace while having an army at his back, he got a knife in his back for his mercy.
So, Redcloak only knows what humans have taught him: That goblin cannot make peace with humans unless they defeat them in combat and hold the world hostage.
Redcloak is doing exactly what he rationally should do, given the events of his life, his history, his people's history, and what his God told him to do.
I'm not even mad. It makes total sense for his character.
It's wrong, it's cruel, it's evil, and it risks everything he's won and threatens to destroy everything everywhere all over again, and lose something precious that may never come back.
He's just had nothing to lose for so long, that now that he has something, he needs to win in battle to ensure it is protected. Since a peace without that battle might result in a knife in the back and a loss of all he has gained.
He's taking that risk for his people. Silly from our omniscient perspective. Cold and rational from his.
Very, very well written, Giant. Wow'ed.
Didn't think Durkon would come around and be that effective. Wasn't expecting him to be that effective and yet, so ineffective at the same time.
I figured Durkon would not make the deal sound strong enough, or make mistakes and fail diplomacy checks.
I didn't see this coming, as usual. I almost never do.
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2020-08-03, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Why would the gods give the party another shot? It seems to me like Durkon showing up dead in Valhalla again would be a good excuse for them to hit the reset button ASAP, unless the inability of the dwarves to vote has made it impossible for the gods to pull the trigger at all now.
Nah, the deal just won’t be how this gets fixed. The gods will turn out to be wrong; Roy’s ongoing skepticism of them will be proven correct and the party will have to sort things out for themselves. It’ll be interesting to see how much time they’ll have to try if the gods are allowed to vote again.
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2020-08-03, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
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"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
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2020-08-03, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
There's better/less costly ways to accomplish either of those goals, I think. And in general, I'd say it would be rather cheapening for this to be anything other than what it looks like. He looked down and away, not up where he might have been catching sight of a lich flying in. Add the pacing, the painful look of contemplation...for this to be an elaborate ruse to continue negotiations in privacy doesn't fit emotionally. And if it's a ruse for Xykon's benefit, then his arrival itself would be the better cliffhanger.
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2020-08-03, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
It isn't a question of political savvy. It's because Redcloak is utterly unwilling to abandon The Plan. He is, as others have pointed out, the living embodiment of the sunk cost fallacy: He has sacrificed so much, and done so many terrible things, in service of his deity's scheme that he can't bear to turn aside now. To do so would mean admitting that all those awful things weren't necessary for the sake of his people--they were just mistakes, for which he, Redcloak, bears responsibility.
(Start of Darkness lays out those crimes and sacrifices in agonizing detail. The online strip has not delved too deeply into it; I suspect the next strip will fill in some of those gaps so that Redcloak's actions will make more sense to online-only readers.)
So Redcloak will press ahead with the Plan, no matter what Durkon says. That's why he didn't try a counteroffer: There's no counteroffer he would accept. Redcloak's psyche exists inside a bomb shelter of rationalizations, and Durkon represents a threat to that. Ending that threat matters more to Redcloak than anything--including the well-being of his own people.
And this is why Redcloak is a villain, not a misunderstood hero.Last edited by Dausuul; 2020-08-03 at 12:56 PM.
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2020-08-03, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-03, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
My guess is Durkon is 16th level cleric, for a base Fort of +10.
As a Dwarf, his Con is high. How high? Surely at least 14, but I am going with 16, for a mod of +3.
Then, he might have magic items or buffs. At a minimum, he should have something like a +2 Resistance bonus from an spell like Magic Circle (or an item).
So I would be surprised if his net Fort were not at least +15.
If this were an actual 16th PC Dwarf Cleric at a gaming table, a +21 would not be unusual.
Redcloak is casting a 9th level spell, so the DC is 10 + 9 + <Wis mod>.
What is his Wis? For a big bad like him, I would guess 22. It could be higher or lower.
So DC 25 is a good ballpark estimate.
By Mechanics, of course, Durkon could fail, by rolling less than 10 on a d20.
By "story logic", Durkon is likely to survive because he (and Roy) are the right kind of tough to shrug off this spell.I owe Peelee 5 Quatloos. But I am going double or nothing that Durkon will be casting 8th level spells at the big finale.
I bet Goblin_Priest 5 quatloos that Xykon does not know RC has the phylactery at this point in the tale (#1139).
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of Belkar...so close!
Using my Bardic skills I see the fate of goblinkind!
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2020-08-03, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
There has been no goblin cleric showing any capability of 9th level spells. The Order has to make do with Redcloak, even if he just imploded(?) Durkon right in front of them.
Uh oh.
Durkon can't be 16th -- he was 15 as Durkula, and he lost two levels. He's probably 13-14.
These odds don't look too good.
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2020-08-03, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
"That's not right, that's not even wrong."
"This is not an idea to be tossed aside lightly, it should be thrown with great force."
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2020-08-03, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-08-03, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
...Well. I guess that's it. We always knew that it could and narratively probably would end this way.
That said, I don't think this was a fruitless conversation. Redcloak is messing up, but this is planting the seeds for the future in his mind and he's clearly thinking about it. Durkon has offered him a hand in peace without involving his personal feelings, extensively extenuating circumstances aside. It's more than most PC races races give him and certainly more than any adventurer or Lawful Good being specifically. It was an exchange of respectful diplomacy.
Redcloak isn't the best at self-reflection, but he is an internal processor and this will continue to stew in his mind, I'm sure.
Once again, kudos to the Giant for making several pages of two people talking religion and politics to each other unbelievably engaging.
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2020-08-03, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
That isn't what Rich said. What he said in SoD was that Redcloak was driven to evil because of what his life had forced him to endure (while Xykon was just a ****).
The final scene of SoD illustrates what this means, and today's strip hammers the point home: Having been driven to evil doesn't make you any less evil. Redcloak has suffered terrible injustices. Redcloak claims a noble purpose. And Redcloak is a horrifying villain who has done unforgivable things, and continues to do such things, in order to preserve his own self-image of righteousness.
This is what makes OotS such a brilliant piece of storytelling.
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2020-08-03, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I’m like 95% sure Xykon’s Astral Fortress will be a complete red herring. We already know that the real phylactery is around Redcloak’s neck, so there’s absolutely nothing critical to the plot there.
Also, as you note, there are a ton of moving parts already. We have to handle what’s going on inside the rift, deal with Xykon, deal with what the MitD is and resolve the character arc, handle the Goblin Question, solve the problem of the Snarl, showcase the finale of Belkar’s long redemptive arc, and get a happy ending for Elan (and presumably reality itself). We do not have time for adventures on the astral plane, much less all the characters dying and coming back yet again—which is why I assume Durkon will live through this. If Burlew wanted a character dead for the purposes of showing us a plot in the upper planes, he could’ve just left the new dwarf there.
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2020-08-03, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-08-03, 01:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Why would Redcloak cast a 1-hit kill spell that has only a 67% chance of killing Durkon?
Remember, the difference between Durkon and the racist Elves (and FYI, in other fictions Elves are often analogized to racist fascists) is not merely his willingness to play ball with Redcloak, but also his constitution score.
I supposed Rich will change it afterwards, but I'd give it a decent chance that:
#1, Durkon survives
#2, Redcloak immediately goes to accept Durkon's plan in principle and begins discussing negotiating terms.
I'm personally not a fan of the Redcloak character, given that I've been dealing with way too many nationalists recently ("No, it's your fault! We're the victims here!"), but I'd say it's a valid way for Rich to move the story forward and deliver a twist. Remember, Redcloak didn't say no, he said Implosion.Last edited by Inst; 2020-08-03 at 01:16 PM.
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2020-08-03, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Agree on your last sentence, and Durkon would surely need to ask Thor to open that secret door to help make the deal go through ... but this is probably a low odds guess. Just had a thought: Thor gave Durkon that hammer and those gaunts ... I don't think the only reason was for the council chamber's roof.
All I am doing is taking what TDO told him and extending that into the near future; that doesn't make Jirix a saint, it just makes him focused on building Gobbotopia and environs into an effective homeland through means other than war. One can still be hard hearted, or evil, and be an effective sovereign/ruler/leader, particularly in fantasy stories.
Durkon tells Redcloak he has no weapons. I am guessing that the hammer and gloves/gaunts are with Minrah. I wonder if that would boost her cleric levels if she put them on. (no idea)
He is all about efficiency these days ...
Beats changin it to Greg.
If TDO is an evil deity (not sure about that, but for the moment let's assume that) then if Redcloak is evil and dies evil, he goes to his deity's eternal reward in wherever. That may not be the happiest ending but not due to alignment issues. I think that evil people can have happy endings, but maybe they can't have redemption? (Not sure, but it would fit into what Soon told Miko ... )
Redcloak's vision of goblins having a better future is partly realized. The conquest of Gobbotopia also ends the ongoing threar of yet another raid by the SG. This may not be an Elan flavored happy ending, but a fitting one with one small problem: "Don't screw this up. No pressure" (From TDO to Reddie via Jirix)
I am not sure how his ending can be happy, in terms of being with TDO and welcomed into the TDO zone of the afterlife, if he, Redcloak, does not see The Plan to fruition.
Interesting way to frame that. I like it. We'll see. I can see him thinking through all that and arriving at that choice, and then acting on it "right now." Good point, based on the three points Durkon lays out in panel 2 of strip 1208.Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-03 at 01:22 PM.
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2020-08-03, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Someone with a sufficiently high Wis would not act in the way Redcloak does. Conciliation (or subversion if you're inclined to do such / see things that way) is a more effective way to get results than destruction. Violence might be necessary, but it's only a part of the toolkit, not the toolkit itself.
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2020-08-03, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Redclaok does not plan on making demands to the Gods once the ritual is cast. That is the Dark One’s purview. Once the Plan has been accomplished Redcloak’s role will be over and I think he fully expects, and accepts, that he will die by Xykon’s hand at that moment.
Redcloak doesn’t kill Durkon because he wants a better deal he does it because he realized that Durkon is only here for him to step down from the Plan and then give the Gobbotopia’s concessions not the other way around. This is unacceptable for Redcloak but he realizes that they’ve reached an impasse and one of them will have to back down. Part of him wants to accept Durkon’s deal, to be done with this but he can’t go past his hang-up so after a moment of gut-wrenching deliberation he decides that he will not accept Durkon’s offer and so considers him an ennemy again.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-03, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Tons -Thor didnt know about the world inside the snarl, The IFCC and their pawns are still out there, Hel hasn't gone anywhere, and any story can always introduce a new player. Thats all on top of people like Tarquin and Hinjo that are alive, but I dont see a story driven reason to return them at this time.
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2020-08-03, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Well, being 14 gives him a +9 base and if he were prepared he could have some buffs (Bear's Endurance might be too much, but Protection From Evil for a +2 could be considered reasonable). In the end, it'll most likely be up for the plot and I think the Wind Walk will be what saves him (him turning into mist on the first panel of next strip would be a cool visual).
But I feel like this scene was included to prevent people saying that everything would have been resolved if Durkon talked with RC. As we can see, no, it won't.
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2020-08-03, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
That last one won't happen unless the Giant is playing very fast and loose with the D&D rules. A god's chance to refuse a cleric's use of a certain spell (save ones that involve requesting their aid directly in the moment, like Miracle or Planar Ally) happens when the cleric prays for that spell, not when they cast it. Part of having a powerful cleric does involve a certain level of trust on the god's part for that very reason.
If the goal was duping Xykon, I don't know that a 9th-level spell would be needed for that. Implosion, on top of being something he probably would have wanted to save for the very dangerous dungeons he was about to plumb, is also useful for being able to take out multiple targets with a single casting. Simply plane-shifting him out would have been enough instead. The use of implosion suggests to me extra contempt.
That leaves Durkon dying - and while you're right, showing the effect lines up with having failed the save, I also don't think we'll have Durkon just show up in Valhalla again. Though dying and getting raised by Redcloak does raise the stakes, as Durkon will be even weaker for the final confrontation (whatsoever that may be.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2020-08-03, 01:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I mean, not that I disagree with you there (I only partially do, but that's not my point here), but I would really like the following scene if and when Redcloak is brought to some sort of justice outside combat:
(Someone, preferably an Azurite): "What could be punishment enough for what you did?"
RC: "Well, you could do something Lawful and Good, such as maybe kill my family and destroy my village in front of me?"
Because, at the end of the day, Evil or not, Redcloak has a point that there's something fundamentally, horribly broken there. And worse: there, but for the love of the gods, goes anyone else. Roy, Haley, Elan, you name it.
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2020-08-03, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2020-08-03, 01:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I find it odd that Durkon hasn't mentioned what's in it for The Dark One - continued existence.
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2020-08-03, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
But isn't The Plan "gain control of the Snarl in order to use it to force the gods into concessions for goblinoids"? Is the end goal goblinoid justice, or is it to eradicate the other pantheons? Because it seems like the former is within Redcloak's reach right now, actual Snarl/Gate in hand or no. I haven't read SoD so maybe I am missing something, but it seems like you're saying Redcloak won't accept getting what he wants at any time before the exact moment the Plan says he will. Which seems incredibly short-sighted and self-defeating, which I find out-of-character for Redcloak.