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  1. - Top - End - #301
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    well... Damn. thought things were going really well there, i was really enjoying the peace talks.

    do wonder why Durkon never thought to mention the fact that the dark one wouldn't survive to the next world. you'd think that would be an important thing to bring up.
    It's absolutely vital if your objective is to convince Redcloak that you are a lying scumbag and should not under any circumstance be trusted.

    What phrasing are you going to use in this noble pursuit of failure? Here's my suggestion:

    "Tha gods will destroy this world so tha they can all live and create another one. They'll all live safely tha way. Except foh the Dark One, he'll die if they do that. Because what's safe for the rest of them is deadly to him. By the way, while we're here would you care to learn a card game called Fizbin?"

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I don't know if a) Durkon set up Word of Recall and b) if he's willing to endanger the Mechane pirates in case RC or Xykon come after them.

    What's the chance of Durkon making the save? Any D&Ders know the percentage? Judging by his expression in the last panel, it looks like things went Durkon-shaped in the most literal sense possible.

    Overall, these discussions lasted seven pages (five strips). Seven pages and not even a tenth into the story. Durkon's setting himself some new records on his death-o-meter.
    Per class and level geekery: Durkon is level 13 cleric (+8 Fort), with dwarf (+2), and Con (+1 to +3).

    He could also have an item of resistance for an unknown bonus and if he doesn't should have a spell boosting resistance (note that there's a cleric level 0 spell that gives a +1).

    A con boosting item would usually be expected at his level, and give +1 to +3 more.

    So, his bonus is +11 (worst case) to +16 or more.

    Based on his saving throw DC in the battle for Azure city, RC had 20-21 Wis, it could plausibly have gone up a point since then, giving him a 24-25 save DC on his level 9 spell.

    Worst case Durkon still makes that on a roll of 14 (over a third of the time), best case Durkon still misses that on a roll of 7 or less (over a third of the time).

    So about half. Or he makes the save if Rich wants him to make the save, and it's perfectly plausible either way.

  2. - Top - End - #302
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Thinking about it a dead Durkon could be useful - Create Greater Undead (panel 7) draws the soul of the creature back to the body but presumedly Redcloak could then merely command it to speak no lies and get the full story - if he didn't like that approach Speak with Dead (panel 10) could work (subject to how damaged the body was) to perhaps get some clear answers about if Durkon was negotiating in good faith.

    Now I don't think that Redcloak killed/is trying to kill Durkon as a tactic for verification (I think he is doing it because he cannot accept victory as it will never be enough to make up the sacrifices he has made), but as a tactic it might be reasonable enough.

  3. - Top - End - #303
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanW1019 View Post
    I haven't read SoD so maybe I am missing something, but it seems like you're saying Redcloak won't accept getting what he wants at any time before the exact moment the Plan says he will. Which seems incredibly short-sighted and self-defeating, which I find out-of-character for Redcloak.
    I am afraid that you are losing something in SoD, yes. There's a crucial piece of RC's character there that might be becoming clear in the following strips, but that makes this action in character for him.


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  4. - Top - End - #304
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanW1019 View Post
    Which seems incredibly short-sighted and self-defeating, which I find out-of-character for Redcloak.
    Well, no. Valid grievances or no (and his are incredibly valid), worthy cause or no (and his stated cause is perfectly worthy), Redcloak does have an incredibly serious issue with the sunk cost fallacy and with some degree of self-sabotage in the name of holding grudges.

    He needs to remember one very basic thing about revenge: it's not true revenge if you cause yourself loss in the process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Mage View Post
    I am afraid that you are losing something in SoD, yes. There's a crucial piece of RC's character there that might be becoming clear in the following strips, but that makes this action in character for him.
    Hey, I see you're from Brazil as well. What do you say to being the one to share recipes of Brazilian snacks this time? I've covered coxinha, bolinha de queijo and pão de queijo (I mean, I'm from Minas) in the last thread while welcoming them to the Dark Side for agreeing with me.

    (Or, better yet, we can check if we can set up a recipe thread... Hmm.)

    Oh, Ye, Peelee, Dragon Mod at the Silver Mountain, can we set up a recipe thread?
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2020-08-03 at 01:42 PM.
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    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
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    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  5. - Top - End - #305
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Redclaok does not plan on making demands to the Gods once the ritual is cast. That is the Dark One’s purview. Once the Plan has been accomplished Redcloak’s role will be over and I think he fully expects, and accepts, that he will die by Xykon’s hand at that moment.

    Redcloak doesn’t kill Durkon because he wants a better deal he does it because he realized that Durkon is only here for him to step down from the Plan and then give the Gobbotopia’s concessions not the other way around. This is unacceptable for Redcloak but he realizes that they’ve reached an impasse and one of them will have to back down. Part of him wants to accept Durkon’s deal, to be done with this but he can’t go past his hang-up so after a moment of gut-wrenching deliberation he decides that he will not accept Durkon’s offer and so considers him an ennemy again.
    I think he's also remembering Right-Eye, and how much he's sacrificed for The Plan. I don't think he feels he CAN back down, even with this new information.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    It's absolutely vital if your objective is to convince Redcloak that you are a lying scumbag and should not under any circumstance be trusted.

    What phrasing are you going to use in this noble pursuit of failure? Here's my suggestion:

    "Tha gods will destroy this world so tha they can all live and create another one. They'll all live safely tha way. Except foh the Dark One, he'll die if they do that. Because what's safe for the rest of them is deadly to him. By the way, while we're here would you care to learn a card game called Fizbin?"
    i was thinking something more along the lines of

    "The gods need their four colours to properly seal the snarl away for good, and your god's purple colour is something they've never had before, so they can actually try it here, in this world. But if you continue trying to free the snarl, they'll destroy this world, and While they can always make another world after that, Thor has reason to believe that The Dark One won't survive the time between now and then, he'll starve long before it. Just like the Elven gods will, just as so many other risen gods have in past worlds. If you and the dark one don't help us save this world, then you'll doom not only the dark one himself, but every goblinoid in every world yet to come. Because the snarl will just keep coming back again and again. We have one chance at stopping it, and The Dark One is it. I've seen the graves of the past worlds, it's not just one past world like we both thought, but there were countless. more then the eye can even comprehend. Not once has anyone like the Dark One been seen before in all that time. And if this world gets destroyed, if the Dark One isn't allowed the time he needs to gain the strength to survive the wait into the next world, then there may be countless more worlds that come after with No Dark one, no world in which Goblins are created as equals, no chance at containing the Snarl. If you help us now, you'll not only be helping yourselves, but your god, and every life to come for the rest of infinity. That can be your legacy."


    You know, like... telling the truth without any malice. Why the hell Durkon would say your line which is obviously worded in a "I'm better then you" manner which is the exact opposite of what he's tryin
    Last edited by Draconi Redfir; 2020-08-03 at 01:45 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #307
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by One Skunk Todd View Post
    Plus, at some point I would expect they'll have go after Xykon's fortress on the astral plane. If Rich TPK's them now, that might be a chance to tackle that, then return for the endgame.

    So many moving parts now.
    I'm always curious about the Xykon fortress part...in that how, exactly, would the Order know about it or get there?

    There are 3 people who know where it is: X, RC, MiTD. Two have been shown able to visit the Astral Plane.

    Xykon will not respawn in there. Priority is killing him first, then securing phylactery. Redcloak has the phylactery. Thus, no reason to go to the fortress.

    Other option: Xykon flees there with the phylactery, which means Redcloak is killed by Xykon. It is 100% in Xykon's character to destroy Redcloak's body, or Soul Bind it. The Order doesn't have a way of entering the Astral Plane -- Durkon Planeshifting may work, but they don't know where in the Plane it is.

    ***

    Okay, revising my prediction from the predictions thread...this would be a really good moment for the voices to help Durkon haul ass.

  8. - Top - End - #308
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanW1019 View Post
    But isn't The Plan "gain control of the Snarl in order to use it to force the gods into concessions for goblinoids"? Is the end goal goblinoid justice, or is it to eradicate the other pantheons? Because it seems like the former is within Redcloak's reach right now, actual Snarl/Gate in hand or no. I haven't read SoD so maybe I am missing something, but it seems like you're saying Redcloak won't accept getting what he wants at any time before the exact moment the Plan says he will. Which seems incredibly short-sighted and self-defeating, which I find out-of-character for Redcloak.

    What's the difference? The other pantheons created the Goblins as XP snacks, essentially making them as complicit in the crimes against goblinity as other entities.

    See, this is why I dislike the term "justice". One person's justice is another person's revenge; the definition of justice is very subjective.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Poor Durkon, he might die so much that he might be back at level 1 by the time the story ends. But at least Redcloak is not killing him for fun but for the sake of his god which is why he show regret before using that spell. And at least Durkon doesn't have to worry about his corpse becoming a vampire again, so that is a improvement at least.

  10. - Top - End - #310
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    A thought:
    Redcloak previously expressed an inability to communicate (much) with The Dark One in #1206.
    Goblinoid souls go to TDO at the end of their lives.
    The last panel is drawn such that it appears the implosion effect is centered on Redcloak, not Durkon.

    I haven't looked through the whole thread, but is there any possibility that Redcloak is making a desperate attempt to try to bring this message to TDO?

    Redcloak might figure that Durkon can arrange Speak With Dead or Raise Dead? Speak With Dead is a 10 minute casting time and Raise Dead is similarly challenging time-wise. Perhaps the most convenient means of compressing a corpse for Durkon to carry?

    Implosion's a Fort save spell that doesn't affect objects, so imploding Xykon wouldn't work--probably--and nothing else makes sense to implode other than Durkon, but that's already been talked to death by now, I assume.

    What if that Implosion effect is Redcloak's last zealous attempt to speak with their deity in the face of this offer and the unprecedented danger to TDO that is the Snarl?
    Player >>> Build >>> Class. I'm running a game where two very effective characters are a Warlock (ranged touch attacks hit a lot. Who knew?) and a Daring Outlaw with a few maneuvers (full sneak attack and Island of Blades Stance generates a lot of damage quickly) and the Druid mostly uses the class as an excuse to live out lifelong dreams of being best friend to animals.

  11. - Top - End - #311
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Wait, what?

    Didn’t see that coming!

    Avidly anticipating the next comic!

  12. - Top - End - #312
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanW1019 View Post
    Maybe I'm not politically savvy enough to understand Redcloak here, but how does this help Redcloak achieve his goals? At some point, he will need to force the gods to make concessions, and at that point someone will be sent to negotiate on the gods' behalf. If not Durkon, it would be someone like him. Does Redcloak think he will be able to get the gods to personally appeal to him, once the ritual is ready? Or does he just think he would be able to get more for his side if he follows through with his plan and has his hand on the big red button?

    I'm just not sure why Redcloak's response is to kill Durkon, even if he disagrees with the offer he just heard. That may have been the most conciliatory speech Redcloak has ever heard from a Good-aligned person, and it's clear that the gods are willing to come to the table already. So why didn't Redcloak just say "no" and make a harder counteroffer?
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanW1019 View Post
    But isn't The Plan "gain control of the Snarl in order to use it to force the gods into concessions for goblinoids"? Is the end goal goblinoid justice, or is it to eradicate the other pantheons? Because it seems like the former is within Redcloak's reach right now, actual Snarl/Gate in hand or no. I haven't read SoD so maybe I am missing something, but it seems like you're saying Redcloak won't accept getting what he wants at any time before the exact moment the Plan says he will. Which seems incredibly short-sighted and self-defeating, which I find out-of-character for Redcloak.
    This:
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Redcloak does not plan on making demands to the Gods once the ritual is cast. That is the Dark One’s purview. Once the Plan has been accomplished Redcloak’s role will be over and I think he fully expects, and accepts, that he will die by Xykon’s hand at that moment.
    Further, what Durkon gives him „is an awful proposal. Durkon basically acknowledges that Gobbotopia as it is is not a viable solution to the goblinoids' problem, since its sitting under a Rift, and a huge crusade bait to boot. He also acknowledges that its limited recognition might not protect it from stubborn enemies. All he offers boils down to »I'll try to talk with two guys who may agree to help or at least leave you alone, on condition that you release the slaves, give up on some of the land you occupy [he only promises that the Azurite will give up their claim to most of the land], and you'll do what we need you to do«. We know Redcloak (with his trauma-induced speciesism and whatnot) does not trust humans, we know his god does not trust the other gods, and as some posters have rightly pointed out, releasing the slaves and giving a foothold in the Southern Lands back to the Azurites would just give their enemies a bridgehead and means to bolster their numbers for later, should they choose to move against Gobbotopia (with the possible help of other crusaders).
    Redcloak (and Big Purple) would need some cosmic-level guarantee that they won't be double-crossed even if they are absolutely honest about their goals (which I'll assume to be the case for Big Purple until proven otherwise; RedcloakÂ… he has issues, but I strongly believes he still, at the very least, thinks he's honest), and Durkon offered no such thing (heck, he suggested they ought to mostly leave the gods out of the whole deal). Until such time as Big Purple will be absolutely certain the spot-welding businesss can work as a guarantee of that sort, the Plan is their only option.”

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    i was thinking something more along the lines of

    "The gods need their four colours to properly seal the snarl away for good, and your god's purple colour is something they've never had before, so they can actually try it here, in this world. But if you continue trying to free the snarl, they'll destroy this world, and While they can always make another world after that, Thor has reason to believe that The Dark One won't survive the time between now and then, he'll starve long before it, just like the Elven gods will, just as so many other risen gods have in past worlds. If you and the dark one don't help us save this world, then you'll doom not only the dark one himself, but every goblinoid in every world yet to come. Because the snarl will just keep coming back again and again. We have one chance at stopping it, and The Dark One is it. I've seen the graves of the past worlds, it's not just one past world like we both thought, but there were countless. more then the eye can even comprehend. Not once has anyone like the Dark One been seen before in all that time. And if this world gets destroyed, if the Dark One isn't allowed the time he needs to gain the strength to survive the wait into the next world, then there may be countless more worlds that come after with No Dark one, no world in which Goblins are created as equals, no chance at containing the Snarl. If you help us now, you'll not only be helping yourselves, but your god, and every life to come for the rest of infinity. That can be your legacy."


    You know, like... telling the truth without any malice. Why the hell Durkon would say your line which is obviously worded in a "I'm better then you" manner which is the exact opposite of what he's tryin
    Again, that bolded is one hell of a caveat when talking to a guy who doesn't trust gods other than his own. He has no evidence to suggest this isn't the second world, and we have no evidence other than Thor's word that this issue with newly risen gods is actually a problem. As I said before, I don't like this plot point, since it seems like it's there just to add urgency to Durkon's mission even though Hel's continued presence means that that's really not necessary. And it also makes Hel's plot look questionable, thereby undermining the entire last book. How exactly do you propose to sway Redcloak with hearsay?

  14. - Top - End - #314
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BaronDoctor View Post
    A thought:
    Redcloak previously expressed an inability to communicate (much) with The Dark One in #1206.
    Goblinoid souls go to TDO at the end of their lives.
    The last panel is drawn such that it appears the implosion effect is centered on Redcloak, not Durkon.

    I haven't looked through the whole thread, but is there any possibility that Redcloak is making a desperate attempt to try to bring this message to TDO?

    Redcloak might figure that Durkon can arrange Speak With Dead or Raise Dead? Speak With Dead is a 10 minute casting time and Raise Dead is similarly challenging time-wise. Perhaps the most convenient means of compressing a corpse for Durkon to carry?

    Implosion's a Fort save spell that doesn't affect objects, so imploding Xykon wouldn't work--probably--and nothing else makes sense to implode other than Durkon, but that's already been talked to death by now, I assume.

    What if that Implosion effect is Redcloak's last zealous attempt to speak with their deity in the face of this offer and the unprecedented danger to TDO that is the Snarl?

    ohhhh, that could be it too... good thought there!

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    even though Hel's continued presence means that that's really not necessary. And it also makes Hel's plot look questionable,
    how exactly is Hel a problem here?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Implosion, on top of being something he probably would have wanted to save for the very dangerous dungeons he was about to plumb, is also useful for being able to take out multiple targets with a single casting. Simply plane-shifting him out would have been enough instead. The use of implosion suggests to me extra contempt.
    Plane shift requires a touch attack though, much as disintegrate requires a ranged touch attack. Implosion doesn't call for a 50% miss chance if Redcloak wants Durkon dead without watching Durkon die.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I've just read Start of Darkness.

    What the azurites did to Redcloak village was loathsome. It makes me think they deserve what they got.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    I’m like 95% sure Xykon’s Astral Fortress will be a complete red herring. We already know that the real phylactery is around Redcloak’s neck, so there’s absolutely nothing critical to the plot there.

    Also, as you note, there are a ton of moving parts already. We have to handle what’s going on inside the rift, deal with Xykon, deal with what the MitD is and resolve the character arc, handle the Goblin Question, solve the problem of the Snarl, showcase the finale of Belkar’s long redemptive arc, and get a happy ending for Elan (and presumably reality itself). We do not have time for adventures on the astral plane, much less all the characters dying and coming back yet again—which is why I assume Durkon will live through this. If Burlew wanted a character dead for the purposes of showing us a plot in the upper planes, he could’ve just left the new dwarf there.
    It's a Gordian Plot. :)

    ETA: Made doubly and literally so by the Snarl.
    Last edited by One Skunk Todd; 2020-08-03 at 01:54 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I think TDO not surviving between worlds isn't per se to give urgency, but to justify why Thor/the Gods want to preserve this world. Because if TDO could participate in the next world's creation it'd have been an ideal prison for the Snarl as it'd have 4 colors. This wouldn't be an unique opportunity.

    By the way, I think RC's body language implies that he thinks the deal is good. If the deal were lacking or invalid/untrustworthy he'd have tried to bargain or wouldn't have shied away from Durkon, IMO. But I think this also has the double purpose of him not noticing that Durkon will turn to mist instead of dying.


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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Conradine View Post
    What the azurites did to Redcloak village was loathsome. It makes me think they deserve what they got.
    From their prespective they were trying to save aristocracy from the poor I mean the world from destruction.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    how exactly is Hel a problem here?
    Well, to start, I've inferred that the main reason this point about ascended gods not surviving between worlds is to make it so that Durkon has to succeed in swaying the Dark One to help save this world, rather than having him assist with making the next. But if that's the case, then it's an unnecessary plot point, because there's still a reason for Durkon to want to avoid having to let the gods destroy the world: namely, that the dwarves will still be taken by Hel and condemned to torment by her.

    But on the other hand, if you need a certain amount of worship and soul energy to survive the transition process, then that's bad news for Hel, who also hasn't had much worship of late to draw upon. Her plan hinges on the influx of dwarven souls tiding her over. But if they can, then the Dark One, who has sole custody over the souls of not one race, but several, and who is actively worshiped by mortals as well as getting dedications and souls, would logically have a better chance of making it than she does. If he's in danger, then so is she, and her plan becomes self-defeating.

    So you see how this suggestion that TDO won't survive this world doesn't work for me. It's not built up or supported, it seems unnecessary from a story perspective, and it has implications that undercut the main conflict of the last book. That's all out-of-universe criticism, though. In-universe, the fact remains that Durkon has no evidence to give Redcloak to convince him his god is at risk here. He only has the word of one god who Redcloak thinks is a deceitful hypocrite. Worse, he only has his word that his god has said these things.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I find it odd that Durkon hasn't mentioned what's in it for The Dark One - continued existence.
    That's such a good card that it might actually backfire...because the circumstances line up so nicely for The Dark One's existence to be at risk. In order for it to make sense, at minimum, Durkon would need to explain and get Redcloak to believe...

    1: That this is far from the first world created
    2: That somehow none of the gods have come up with a solution to this insane problem for all this time. I can't see Redcloak easily believing that.
    3: That gods need stuff from mortals to survive
    4: That there will be a long period of being starved of that
    5: That other gods have enough to survive, but the dark one doesn't

    It's too good to be true. Take our deal, because your god literally won't live otherwise, but ours will. I can see why he might have avoided it, it's threatening while also saying "oh, but it's not our fault you're in danger!", way too convenient to be truthful (except that it is).

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Mage View Post
    I think TDO not surviving between worlds isn't per se to give urgency, but to justify why Thor/the Gods want to preserve this world. Because if TDO could participate in the next world's creation it'd have been an ideal prison for the Snarl as it'd have 4 colors. This wouldn't be an unique opportunity.

    By the way, I think RC's body language implies that he thinks the deal is good. If the deal were lacking or invalid/untrustworthy he'd have tried to bargain or wouldn't have shied away from Durkon, IMO. But I think this also has the double purpose of him not noticing that Durkon will turn to mist instead of dying.
    I took that the panel with Redcloak closing his eye meant he knew these terms were good -- not perfect, but worth working it out -- but Durkon's crunch is this: give up the Plan (specifically, the plan with Xykon). And we all know how that turned out in SOD.

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    Dumb theory time: RC actually spotted Minrah behind Durkon. Don't even @ me.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I presume that Red Cloak killed himself to meet the Dark One, hoping Durkon would resurrect him?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    And now we wait.

    Really though, the last couple strips were great. I'm curious where this will lead us.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Mage View Post
    I think TDO not surviving between worlds isn't per se to give urgency, but to justify why Thor/the Gods want to preserve this world. Because if TDO could participate in the next world's creation it'd have been an ideal prison for the Snarl as it'd have 4 colors. This wouldn't be an unique opportunity.
    But that's also unnecessary, especially for Thor, who knows full well the consequences for his followers of reaching that juncture. Honestly, that doesn't even sound different from my framing, it just focuses on the gods' perspectives rather than the Order's/the audience's.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I took that the panel with Redcloak closing his eye meant he knew these terms were good -- not perfect, but worth working it out -- but Durkon's crunch is this: give up the Plan (specifically, the plan with Xykon). And we all know how that turned out in SOD.
    I don't know. Like I said, I don't think those terms are anywhere near good. It might just be a ”Really? I did what I did and that's the best you and your god can offer?”, perhaps conmbined with a lingering feeling that Durkon's really just a well-meaning fool (Redcloak does not seem to enjoy killing folks he has no reason to hate, and he does not seem to hate Durkon, he just resents his privileges – actual and perceived alike). Perhaps he's also somewhat worried that Durkon might be right about the impending Armageddon Special.
    My point is, he has no reason to like those terms, so we don't have to assume he does just that.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-03 at 02:17 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    But that's also unnecessary, especially for Thor, who knows full well the consequences for his followers of reaching that juncture. Honestly, that doesn't even sound different from my framing, it just focuses on the gods' perspectives rather than the Order's/the audience's.
    If Gods were guaranteed a free pass to the next world then the Dwarfs could go and find honorable deaths in the meantime or the Gods could wait for the Snarl to break lose and unmake everyone instead of letting Hel win. As for why Hel (might) survive and TDO not, well, there could be more Dwarfs than goblinoids (expecially so close to the War for Azure City) and/or Hel's more long lived existance means she has more reserves than TDO. After all, there seemed to have a lot of files for dishonorable Dwarfs when Thor and Loki were distracting Hel.


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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Upon thinking about this, I will concede that for Loki, specifically, this bit about TDO's survivability might be a bit more necessary to justify his choice to spare the world. But that only makes his engineering of a wager that would put his daughter at such heavy risk even more questionable. And honestly, even his actions could probably be explained in some less convoluted way.

    Maybe he hopes to test the theory of 4-color seals being enough using the existing smaller rifts before trying it on a global scale, or something. Or maybe he's worried that TDO could withhold help with a new world due to negotiations between him and the others breaking down, which could make their job harder at the worst possible time. Talking over a still intact world would be safer. Etc.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    It’s worth pointing out that comic #826 shows Implosion warping the victim in a similar way whereas it seems to have no wider area of effect; none of the other figures seem to be “bending” toward some singularity.

    Seems more likely to me to have Durkon throw off the effects and visibly “make a Fort save” in the upcoming panels, perhaps with the kind of effort we saw when Roy made his saving throw fighting against the vampire at the Godsmoot. Or Durkon is doomed and Burlew played us all by having a whole book about saving him only to kill him off a few dozen pages into the next one.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Welp, he tried. Send out the halfling negotiator next.
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