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2020-08-03, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
It's absolutely vital if your objective is to convince Redcloak that you are a lying scumbag and should not under any circumstance be trusted.
What phrasing are you going to use in this noble pursuit of failure? Here's my suggestion:
"Tha gods will destroy this world so tha they can all live and create another one. They'll all live safely tha way. Except foh the Dark One, he'll die if they do that. Because what's safe for the rest of them is deadly to him. By the way, while we're here would you care to learn a card game called Fizbin?"
Per class and level geekery: Durkon is level 13 cleric (+8 Fort), with dwarf (+2), and Con (+1 to +3).
He could also have an item of resistance for an unknown bonus and if he doesn't should have a spell boosting resistance (note that there's a cleric level 0 spell that gives a +1).
A con boosting item would usually be expected at his level, and give +1 to +3 more.
So, his bonus is +11 (worst case) to +16 or more.
Based on his saving throw DC in the battle for Azure city, RC had 20-21 Wis, it could plausibly have gone up a point since then, giving him a 24-25 save DC on his level 9 spell.
Worst case Durkon still makes that on a roll of 14 (over a third of the time), best case Durkon still misses that on a roll of 7 or less (over a third of the time).
So about half. Or he makes the save if Rich wants him to make the save, and it's perfectly plausible either way.
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2020-08-03, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Thinking about it a dead Durkon could be useful - Create Greater Undead (panel 7) draws the soul of the creature back to the body but presumedly Redcloak could then merely command it to speak no lies and get the full story - if he didn't like that approach Speak with Dead (panel 10) could work (subject to how damaged the body was) to perhaps get some clear answers about if Durkon was negotiating in good faith.
Now I don't think that Redcloak killed/is trying to kill Durkon as a tactic for verification (I think he is doing it because he cannot accept victory as it will never be enough to make up the sacrifices he has made), but as a tactic it might be reasonable enough.
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2020-08-03, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
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2020-08-03, 01:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Well, no. Valid grievances or no (and his are incredibly valid), worthy cause or no (and his stated cause is perfectly worthy), Redcloak does have an incredibly serious issue with the sunk cost fallacy and with some degree of self-sabotage in the name of holding grudges.
He needs to remember one very basic thing about revenge: it's not true revenge if you cause yourself loss in the process.
Hey, I see you're from Brazil as well. What do you say to being the one to share recipes of Brazilian snacks this time? I've covered coxinha, bolinha de queijo and păo de queijo (I mean, I'm from Minas) in the last thread while welcoming them to the Dark Side for agreeing with me.
(Or, better yet, we can check if we can set up a recipe thread... Hmm.)
Oh, Ye, Peelee, Dragon Mod at the Silver Mountain, can we set up a recipe thread?
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2020-08-03, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
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2020-08-03, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- Gobbotopia
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
i was thinking something more along the lines of
"The gods need their four colours to properly seal the snarl away for good, and your god's purple colour is something they've never had before, so they can actually try it here, in this world. But if you continue trying to free the snarl, they'll destroy this world, and While they can always make another world after that, Thor has reason to believe that The Dark One won't survive the time between now and then, he'll starve long before it. Just like the Elven gods will, just as so many other risen gods have in past worlds. If you and the dark one don't help us save this world, then you'll doom not only the dark one himself, but every goblinoid in every world yet to come. Because the snarl will just keep coming back again and again. We have one chance at stopping it, and The Dark One is it. I've seen the graves of the past worlds, it's not just one past world like we both thought, but there were countless. more then the eye can even comprehend. Not once has anyone like the Dark One been seen before in all that time. And if this world gets destroyed, if the Dark One isn't allowed the time he needs to gain the strength to survive the wait into the next world, then there may be countless more worlds that come after with No Dark one, no world in which Goblins are created as equals, no chance at containing the Snarl. If you help us now, you'll not only be helping yourselves, but your god, and every life to come for the rest of infinity. That can be your legacy."
You know, like... telling the truth without any malice. Why the hell Durkon would say your line which is obviously worded in a "I'm better then you" manner which is the exact opposite of what he's tryinLast edited by Draconi Redfir; 2020-08-03 at 01:45 PM.
Avy by Thormag
Spoiler
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2020-08-03, 01:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I'm always curious about the Xykon fortress part...in that how, exactly, would the Order know about it or get there?
There are 3 people who know where it is: X, RC, MiTD. Two have been shown able to visit the Astral Plane.
Xykon will not respawn in there. Priority is killing him first, then securing phylactery. Redcloak has the phylactery. Thus, no reason to go to the fortress.
Other option: Xykon flees there with the phylactery, which means Redcloak is killed by Xykon. It is 100% in Xykon's character to destroy Redcloak's body, or Soul Bind it. The Order doesn't have a way of entering the Astral Plane -- Durkon Planeshifting may work, but they don't know where in the Plane it is.
***
Okay, revising my prediction from the predictions thread...this would be a really good moment for the voices to help Durkon haul ass.
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2020-08-03, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
What's the difference? The other pantheons created the Goblins as XP snacks, essentially making them as complicit in the crimes against goblinity as other entities.
See, this is why I dislike the term "justice". One person's justice is another person's revenge; the definition of justice is very subjective.
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2020-08-03, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Poor Durkon, he might die so much that he might be back at level 1 by the time the story ends. But at least Redcloak is not killing him for fun but for the sake of his god which is why he show regret before using that spell. And at least Durkon doesn't have to worry about his corpse becoming a vampire again, so that is a improvement at least.
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2020-08-03, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2014
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
A thought:
Redcloak previously expressed an inability to communicate (much) with The Dark One in #1206.
Goblinoid souls go to TDO at the end of their lives.
The last panel is drawn such that it appears the implosion effect is centered on Redcloak, not Durkon.
I haven't looked through the whole thread, but is there any possibility that Redcloak is making a desperate attempt to try to bring this message to TDO?
Redcloak might figure that Durkon can arrange Speak With Dead or Raise Dead? Speak With Dead is a 10 minute casting time and Raise Dead is similarly challenging time-wise. Perhaps the most convenient means of compressing a corpse for Durkon to carry?
Implosion's a Fort save spell that doesn't affect objects, so imploding Xykon wouldn't work--probably--and nothing else makes sense to implode other than Durkon, but that's already been talked to death by now, I assume.
What if that Implosion effect is Redcloak's last zealous attempt to speak with their deity in the face of this offer and the unprecedented danger to TDO that is the Snarl?Player >>> Build >>> Class. I'm running a game where two very effective characters are a Warlock (ranged touch attacks hit a lot. Who knew?) and a Daring Outlaw with a few maneuvers (full sneak attack and Island of Blades Stance generates a lot of damage quickly) and the Druid mostly uses the class as an excuse to live out lifelong dreams of being best friend to animals.
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2020-08-03, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Wait, what?
Didn’t see that coming!
Avidly anticipating the next comic!
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2020-08-03, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
This:
Further, what Durkon gives him „is an awful proposal. Durkon basically acknowledges that Gobbotopia as it is is not a viable solution to the goblinoids' problem, since its sitting under a Rift, and a huge crusade bait to boot. He also acknowledges that its limited recognition might not protect it from stubborn enemies. All he offers boils down to »I'll try to talk with two guys who may agree to help or at least leave you alone, on condition that you release the slaves, give up on some of the land you occupy [he only promises that the Azurite will give up their claim to most of the land], and you'll do what we need you to do«. We know Redcloak (with his trauma-induced speciesism and whatnot) does not trust humans, we know his god does not trust the other gods, and as some posters have rightly pointed out, releasing the slaves and giving a foothold in the Southern Lands back to the Azurites would just give their enemies a bridgehead and means to bolster their numbers for later, should they choose to move against Gobbotopia (with the possible help of other crusaders).
Redcloak (and Big Purple) would need some cosmic-level guarantee that they won't be double-crossed even if they are absolutely honest about their goals (which I'll assume to be the case for Big Purple until proven otherwise; RedcloakÂ… he has issues, but I strongly believes he still, at the very least, thinks he's honest), and Durkon offered no such thing (heck, he suggested they ought to mostly leave the gods out of the whole deal). Until such time as Big Purple will be absolutely certain the spot-welding businesss can work as a guarantee of that sort, the Plan is their only option.”
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2020-08-03, 01:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Again, that bolded is one hell of a caveat when talking to a guy who doesn't trust gods other than his own. He has no evidence to suggest this isn't the second world, and we have no evidence other than Thor's word that this issue with newly risen gods is actually a problem. As I said before, I don't like this plot point, since it seems like it's there just to add urgency to Durkon's mission even though Hel's continued presence means that that's really not necessary. And it also makes Hel's plot look questionable, thereby undermining the entire last book. How exactly do you propose to sway Redcloak with hearsay?
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2020-08-03, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-03, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2020-08-03, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I've just read Start of Darkness.
What the azurites did to Redcloak village was loathsome. It makes me think they deserve what they got.
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2020-08-03, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by One Skunk Todd; 2020-08-03 at 01:54 PM.
"That's not right, that's not even wrong."
"This is not an idea to be tossed aside lightly, it should be thrown with great force."
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2020-08-03, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I think TDO not surviving between worlds isn't per se to give urgency, but to justify why Thor/the Gods want to preserve this world. Because if TDO could participate in the next world's creation it'd have been an ideal prison for the Snarl as it'd have 4 colors. This wouldn't be an unique opportunity.
By the way, I think RC's body language implies that he thinks the deal is good. If the deal were lacking or invalid/untrustworthy he'd have tried to bargain or wouldn't have shied away from Durkon, IMO. But I think this also has the double purpose of him not noticing that Durkon will turn to mist instead of dying.
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2020-08-03, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
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2020-08-03, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Well, to start, I've inferred that the main reason this point about ascended gods not surviving between worlds is to make it so that Durkon has to succeed in swaying the Dark One to help save this world, rather than having him assist with making the next. But if that's the case, then it's an unnecessary plot point, because there's still a reason for Durkon to want to avoid having to let the gods destroy the world: namely, that the dwarves will still be taken by Hel and condemned to torment by her.
But on the other hand, if you need a certain amount of worship and soul energy to survive the transition process, then that's bad news for Hel, who also hasn't had much worship of late to draw upon. Her plan hinges on the influx of dwarven souls tiding her over. But if they can, then the Dark One, who has sole custody over the souls of not one race, but several, and who is actively worshiped by mortals as well as getting dedications and souls, would logically have a better chance of making it than she does. If he's in danger, then so is she, and her plan becomes self-defeating.
So you see how this suggestion that TDO won't survive this world doesn't work for me. It's not built up or supported, it seems unnecessary from a story perspective, and it has implications that undercut the main conflict of the last book. That's all out-of-universe criticism, though. In-universe, the fact remains that Durkon has no evidence to give Redcloak to convince him his god is at risk here. He only has the word of one god who Redcloak thinks is a deceitful hypocrite. Worse, he only has his word that his god has said these things.
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2020-08-03, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
That's such a good card that it might actually backfire...because the circumstances line up so nicely for The Dark One's existence to be at risk. In order for it to make sense, at minimum, Durkon would need to explain and get Redcloak to believe...
1: That this is far from the first world created
2: That somehow none of the gods have come up with a solution to this insane problem for all this time. I can't see Redcloak easily believing that.
3: That gods need stuff from mortals to survive
4: That there will be a long period of being starved of that
5: That other gods have enough to survive, but the dark one doesn't
It's too good to be true. Take our deal, because your god literally won't live otherwise, but ours will. I can see why he might have avoided it, it's threatening while also saying "oh, but it's not our fault you're in danger!", way too convenient to be truthful (except that it is).
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2020-08-03, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I took that the panel with Redcloak closing his eye meant he knew these terms were good -- not perfect, but worth working it out -- but Durkon's crunch is this: give up the Plan (specifically, the plan with Xykon). And we all know how that turned out in SOD.
***
Dumb theory time: RC actually spotted Minrah behind Durkon. Don't even @ me.
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2020-08-03, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I presume that Red Cloak killed himself to meet the Dark One, hoping Durkon would resurrect him?
Ancient gamer slowly rising from torpor, please forgive my ignorance of these modern times.
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2020-08-03, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
And now we wait.
Really though, the last couple strips were great. I'm curious where this will lead us.
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2020-08-03, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
But that's also unnecessary, especially for Thor, who knows full well the consequences for his followers of reaching that juncture. Honestly, that doesn't even sound different from my framing, it just focuses on the gods' perspectives rather than the Order's/the audience's.
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2020-08-03, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I don't know. Like I said, I don't think those terms are anywhere near good. It might just be a ”Really? I did what I did and that's the best you and your god can offer?”, perhaps conmbined with a lingering feeling that Durkon's really just a well-meaning fool (Redcloak does not seem to enjoy killing folks he has no reason to hate, and he does not seem to hate Durkon, he just resents his privileges – actual and perceived alike). Perhaps he's also somewhat worried that Durkon might be right about the impending Armageddon Special.
My point is, he has no reason to like those terms, so we don't have to assume he does just that.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-03 at 02:17 PM.
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2020-08-03, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
If Gods were guaranteed a free pass to the next world then the Dwarfs could go and find honorable deaths in the meantime or the Gods could wait for the Snarl to break lose and unmake everyone instead of letting Hel win. As for why Hel (might) survive and TDO not, well, there could be more Dwarfs than goblinoids (expecially so close to the War for Azure City) and/or Hel's more long lived existance means she has more reserves than TDO. After all, there seemed to have a lot of files for dishonorable Dwarfs when Thor and Loki were distracting Hel.
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2020-08-03, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Upon thinking about this, I will concede that for Loki, specifically, this bit about TDO's survivability might be a bit more necessary to justify his choice to spare the world. But that only makes his engineering of a wager that would put his daughter at such heavy risk even more questionable. And honestly, even his actions could probably be explained in some less convoluted way.
Maybe he hopes to test the theory of 4-color seals being enough using the existing smaller rifts before trying it on a global scale, or something. Or maybe he's worried that TDO could withhold help with a new world due to negotiations between him and the others breaking down, which could make their job harder at the worst possible time. Talking over a still intact world would be safer. Etc.
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2020-08-03, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
It’s worth pointing out that comic #826 shows Implosion warping the victim in a similar way whereas it seems to have no wider area of effect; none of the other figures seem to be “bending” toward some singularity.
Seems more likely to me to have Durkon throw off the effects and visibly “make a Fort save” in the upcoming panels, perhaps with the kind of effort we saw when Roy made his saving throw fighting against the vampire at the Godsmoot. Or Durkon is doomed and Burlew played us all by having a whole book about saving him only to kill him off a few dozen pages into the next one.
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2020-08-03, 02:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Welp, he tried. Send out the halfling negotiator next.
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