OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[HandofShadows]

If DC kills (or tries) to kill Durkon he is doing the very thing that supposedly happened to the Dark One. Assassination under a flag of truce so to say. I don't think Durkon is going to die though. He clearly remembers what happened with the last cleric of another good he had a lot of contact and may have figured out something to protect himself.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Well, this finally went spectacularly off the rails like it always seemed seconds away from doing so.

Is the Redcloak fan club finally going to admit that he has sunk-cost-fallacied himself well beyond reason, rationality and the possibility of redemption? Like Soon explained to Miko, it's not for everyone. Mr. Burlew has explained repeatedly over the years how villains in OotS bring about their own ends by the choices they make, and quite possibly this is Redcloak's turn (drawn out and eventual, no doubt).

Patterns of dramatic conventions indicate that Durkon's not going to die here, despite the cliffhanger implying it -- if he was, the strip would have ended with messy stickdeath. Instead, either he straight-up makes the save, or some contingency measure he and Minrah cooked up gets him out (like Wind Walk, or he was never there, a la The Last Jedi), or someone like Vaarsuvius or Xykon Counterspells it, quite likely crossed with the rest of the Order popping up over the edge of the canyon to intervene en-masse sooner than they originally planned.

At any rate, it seems "roll Initiative" is firmly in order, the surprise round having now been made.

[danielxcutter]

I feel that it’s worth remembering that well... speculation is just that - speculation. We could yammer about this until the half-fiendish minotaurs come home, but there’s only a certain amount of information we can reasonably predict before it devolves into wild guessing. It wouldn’t be that great of a story if the plot threads were obvious from half a mile away, would it?

[Lethologica]

I'm not convinced there is a difference, in point of fact. Not enough of one for Loki to not be concerned for Hel's safety, certainly.

Well, here's what Thor says about why TDO might not make it: "The Dark One won't have the stores of energy necessary to persist through that gap. He hasn't been around long enough, and hasn't had the followers of a whole pantheon believing in him. I've seen new gods with more worshippers than he has fail to make it."

I consider that sufficient reason to believe that new gods are particularly vulnerable because they haven't built up reserves of energy over a long period of time, even if they can get a large influx of additional energy from the end of the world.

And the one thing that could tide her over, a sudden influx of souls, is something TDO could also expect under the same circumstances.

Well, here's what Thor says about why TDO might not make it: "The Dark One won't have the stores of energy necessary to persist through that gap. He hasn't been around long enough, and hasn't had the followers of a whole pantheon believing in him. I've seen new gods with more worshippers than he has fail to make it."

The number of goblinoids who worship TDO is not considered particularly numerous for a new god. The ten million dwarves Hel would claim is large enough to take her from questionable survival to potential dominance. So either you make up your mind that the number of goblinoids must be large enough for the plot hole to exist...or you let the story do the talking.

Look, long story short, there are two things we know a god needs, souls and worship. Hel is in danger because she only has one. TDO has two. Hel expects to survive with one, somehow, yet TDO won't with two.

Well, here's what Thor says about why TDO might not make it: "The Dark One won't have the stores of energy necessary to persist through that gap. He hasn't been around long enough, and hasn't had the followers of a whole pantheon believing in him. I've seen new gods with more worshippers than he has fail to make it."

We know a god needs four things: belief, worship, dedications, and souls. Hel and TDO each have three; Hel lacks worship, TDO lacks belief (which probably has knock-on effects for the other three, since fewer believers means a smaller pool from which to draw worshippers, dedications, and souls - albeit TDO has near-exclusive rights on goblinoids and hence a high conversion rate of belief to the other three resources).

Her souls and worship from prior worlds has no bearing on the question since it's already factored in and doesn't prevent Loki from giving his pessimistic prognosis. Support from the rest of the pantheon is speculative, and doesn't hold water when every ascended god before TDO joined a pantheon, and they nevertheless failed to survive.

Since the text is explicit that not drawing from the followers of a full pantheon is part of the problem, it is not 'speculative' to say it is part of the problem.

The fact that Hel and TDO are both at risk does not mean that they are at risk in the same exact ways for the same exact reasons. Hel is a mature goddess thrown out of balance by lack of worship. TDO is a newborn god who simply hasn't been drawing from a large enough pool of followers for long enough. So just because Hel's plan would have worked for Hel doesn't mean it would have worked for TDO; they are lacking different things, possibly to different degrees, and would benefit to differing degrees from the end of the world.

And so on. We can engage in more conjecture, more hair-splitting and special pleading, but the fact remains that the information we have in front of us requires additional context or rules and principles we weren't provided to be reconciled. And through all of this, we have no concrete examples or other illustrations of the problem that would make it feel more organic.

No, it pretty much comes down to you assuming that TDO would gain more soul power from the end of the world than Hel would, and since you have no basis for that assumption, the rest of it falls apart.

Also, y'know, if you eventually get around to establishing that it is a problem, there's an obvious solution: cut out Hel's side instead of TDO's side. The previous book works just fine as Hel trying to seize power, without the extra wrinkle that Hel might not survive the interim after failing. On the other hand, removing TDO's side leaves the gaping plot hole of why the gods would be willing to let things play out this time when they haven't hesitated to pull the plug on a squillion other worlds.

Honestly, the thing it reminds me the most of is the bit where Haley and Belkar were convinced to spare Bozzok for fear of letting MMO-parody crime bosses from taking his place. Pretty obviously an excuse to leave him as a loose end to cause more trouble later, which he did, and to add insult to injury, we learned that the huge pile of money Haley gave them to raise the dead thieves wasn't spent on that. And now he's dead anyways. Will Haley have to go clean up those offscreen bad guys later? One hopes so, otherwise her decision will seem even more foolish in retrospect.

1. Haley explicitly wasn't persuaded to spare Bozzok on that basis. She was persuaded by the promise of help getting Roy's body back and a cleric to contact Durkon.
2. The money in the deal wasn't to raise dead thieves, it was the consequence of retroactively legitimizing Haley's thievery as Guild activity, because the Guild takes a cut of thievery conducted under their purview.
3. Celia negotiated the money, not Haley.
4. Haley told Bozzok (through Crystal) that the deal was off and refused to pay him anything.

It's not much of a criticism to criticize plot elements that don't exist.

Does it? As I said before, it seems to have no bearing on the decision process for any of the gods except Loki, and he could have come around to his current position for other reasons.

Uh, it influenced the decision of some guy named Thor who told us about the whole thing. The Twelve Gods are 'split' on the subject, which means some of them are for negotiating with TDO, which likely influenced their collective decision to vote No on destroying the world. Whereas the Western Gods, who collectively voted Yes, mostly don't believe TDO has anything to offer (besides Tiamat, obviously). More than enough for TDO to be accurately presented as the reason the gods haven't yet destroyed this world. (And before you point out that this wasn't mentioned at the Godsmoot, it's because the Snarl is still a secret, and there's no point bringing up TDO without talking about the Snarl.)

[Fyraltari]

TDO wont’ get the souls of all goblins when they die. He will take the souls of all his worshippers. The difference is that while all his worshippers are goblinoids and no goblinoid worship an other god it doesn’t mean that all goblinoids worship him. Oona and her tribe only care about him for big occasions so I think that, upon death, most of them wouldn’t go to his domain just as Roy who « was raised to follow the Norther Gods I guess » didn’t go to one of their domains.

Hel, however would get all the dwarves regardless of circumstances. So it’s not hard to see her ending up leagues ahead of him.

[diplomancer]

I think it interesting that Durkon realizes that he made a mistake with Malack, and that he could should not have attacked because Malack was a vampire.
It is great to see him try to move past lawful stupid, just as he is trying to move past being passive.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working out for him again...

Well, last time Durkon tried to work out a deal with a Cleric things ended up getting very hot for him. In fact, he was flame-striked.

[Conradine]

Is the Redcloak fan club finally going to admit that he has sunk-cost-fallacied himself well beyond reason, rationality and the possibility of redemption?

No.

Redcloak is obeying his god, which he served for all his adult life. The only existing god for all goblinoids, in a world where goblins were created to serve as xp fodder. He has been explicitly instructed to not screw up the Plan and so he does.

[Aquillion]

My theory before reading the spell description was that Redcloak has cast Implosion on something sneaking up behind Durkon, and we're just seeing a sort of "splash" effect.

The d20 SRD description makes it clear that the spell targets a creature, however, not an area. I suppose that doesn't preclude a visual splash effect, but in #826 we see him use it without any.

Hmm.

...you know, that made me realize something.

The distortion around Durkon doesn't show him collapsing into himself, it shows his entire body stretched along a particular point, as if there's an implosion in front of him, not in his body. He's drawn like he's on the edge of a fisheye lens, not the center. In other words, he's distorted the way he would be if there were a momentarily gravitational collapse on top of Redcloak.

It would be amusing if Redcloak Implosioned himself in order to talk to the Dark One. The previous strips even set up the fact that Redcloak has no other way of doing so. He'd have to trust Durkon to bring him back.

That would also explain Durkon's confused expression shifting to horror in the second to last panel. If Durkon was the target, he wouldn't be confused, but if Redcloak was suddenly collapsing in on himself right in front of him it would cause that reaction, surely.

[dancrilis]

The distortion around Durkon doesn't show him collapsing into himself, it shows his entire body stretched along a particular point, as if there's an implosion in front of him, not in his body. He's drawn like he's on the edge of a fisheye lens, not the center. In other words, he's distorted the way he would be if there were a momentarily gravitational collapse on top of Redcloak.

If you are seeing some significant difference between Durkon (panel 24) and elf commander guy (panel 5) in how they look before they implode I am not seeing it - however in Durkon's favour presumedly one only fails the save when they go splat, the stretching affect might merely be making a save.

[Metastachydium]

(Eh. This thread is moving awfully fast.

Durkon has informed Redcloak that the world is in danger of immediate destruction. Redcloak's counterargument amounts to nothing more than trusting the Good gods are too nice to allow anything so extreme to occur, even if Neutral and Evil gods are ready to push the button. But isn't his motivation for The Plan and his motivation for rejecting Durkon's deal for Goblotopia founded on the assumption that the Good gods cannot ever be trusted to be nice enough or fair enough at all?

Redcloak believes that the gods are so afraid of him that they would ponder pulling the plug, but wouldn't do it because the rest of the species are not disposable for them. Redcloak might know they need their followers to sustain themselves, since even Eugene knows that (otherwise he wouldn't have told Julia they are crowdsourcing their magic), and if he doesn't there's still the little fact that he firmly believes that the gods hate monsters and like, well, everything else.

Analyzing Redcloak’s options:

1) Durkon’s offer is asking that Redcloak and The Dark One save the world rather than threatening it, but is offering little beyond what they already have, and the little that is being offered is conditional on several other parties agreeing. Taking the deal as it stands would throw away a massive bargaining chip.

2) The Plan (A) - use the threat of the Snarl to extort concessions from the gods - is kaput. The ritual to control the gate takes days to weeks (mentioned in War & XPs) and the moment Redcloak and Xykon start it, the gods will destroy the world. That means the only feasible avenue left for The Plan is (B) - the gods destroy the world, TDO gets a say in the next one. That’s not feasible because TDO is unlikely to survive, but Redcloak doesn’t know that and there’s no decent evidence to offer him.

3) Therefore, holding out for a better offer - if the gods want us to save the world, they’d better put more on the table - is the strongest option for Redcloak at the moment. He’s got something BIG to offer - if the gods want his help, they’d better offer something big in return.

Which requires channels of communication to remain open.

Very good analysis. All I'd add (and I highly doubt you'll agree) that this more on the table should be, first of all, some clear guarantee that they won't be double-crossed – such as surrendering the Gate to Big Purple on condition that he promises not to use it as long as they play nice (which he'll likely accept, since it's a one-shot weapon); and that since gods seem to see stuff through the eyes of their clerics (that's how Big Purple found out Lirian's Gate exist) killing a uselees emissary might get a message such as ”get serious” across just fine.

That’s what I don’t get. “Continue with the Plan, extort concessions from the gods” is no longer viable. It stopped being viable the moment the gods decided that destroying the world was preferable to the Plan’s success. You cannot pursue a hostage strategy against someone who is willing to kill the hostage.

The intended hostage is not the world, but the gods, and it's not so much a hostage situation as it is a”mutually assured destruction” policy (minus the part with mutually… which makes it a hostage situation of sorts, really). Also, Redcloak doesn't believe that this (the possibility of an impending doom for all) is a problem, and you said so yourself.

Now RC can go an Comune with TDO : "Hey! the gods want to negotiate and thor send you this message, will continue taking control of the gate ? "

If TDO say yes, RC will wipe out OOTS and continue the search for the gate.
If TDO say no, RC can resurect Durkon and plan how to deal with Xykon.

He can not let Durkon alive because the town is in alert now: there is a strange dwarf an his companions are near. He need at least 10 minutes to cast Comune.

Well, that would not be a bad idea.)

And now, new insane theory: Durkon is absolutely going to die and get curled up in a litle spherical thing. MInrah will whisk it away, and the whole deal will serve as the setup for the intrudoction of the new ally the Giant promised to include in the first half of the book. Durkon will need a Resurrection, and we know a character who can do that: the lizard who Raised the Oracle (his next assignment was to be a Ressurection). He has access to the Oracle who knows everything, and a partner who can teleport once the Oracle tells them where to find the Order. It's about time for Team Tiamat to get directly involved in the plot, anyway.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

This comic is not as disastrous as it looks. Thor wanted Redcloak to donate a 9th level spell slot, and technically he did.

[MirEgal]

Regarding Redcloaks motivations, there is another factor I've not yet seen discussed.

Redcloak simply doesn't trust the gods to uphold their end of the bargain. Every contract has loopholes. Every contract can be broken. From an evil point of view, people with the good alignment are the same as evil people when using loopholes or breaking contracts as "morally good" is seen as selfish.

Therefore the only realistic way to ensure goblinkind survival is to always have the power. Blackmailing the gods with the snarl is not a one-time thing but has to become the new normal. And that's something the gods would never agree to, therefore negotiation is futile.

[Worldsong]

Is the Redcloak fan club finally going to admit that he has sunk-cost-fallacied himself well beyond reason, rationality and the possibility of redemption? Like Soon explained to Miko, it's not for everyone. Mr. Burlew has explained repeatedly over the years how villains in OotS bring about their own ends by the choices they make, and quite possibly this is Redcloak's turn (drawn out and eventual, no doubt).

Not yet.

The reason why Miko didn't get redeemed was because her story ended before she could attain it. Redcloak's story hasn't ended yet, so the possibility still exists.

Also Redcloak still appears to be the only option for helping seal the rifts. The theory that Jirix or some other goblinoid is going to pop up and say 'by the way I can cast 9th level spells now' just doesn't sit right with me. It'd feel deux-ex-machina-y, given that up until now Redcloak has been propped up as possibly the strongest cleric in the world, and certainly the only servant of the Dark One who has been shown to be capable of casting 9th level spells.

[Metastachydium]

Regarding Redcloaks motivations, there is another factor I've not yet seen discussed.

Redcloak simply doesn't trust the gods to uphold their end of the bargain. Every contract has loopholes. Every contract can be broken. From an evil point of view, people with the good alignment are the same as evil people when using loopholes or breaking contracts as "morally good" is seen as selfish.

Therefore the only realistic way to ensure goblinkind survival is to always have the power. Blackmailing the gods with the snarl is not a one-time thing but has to become the new normal. And that's something the gods would never agree to, therefore negotiation is futile.

Yes, he doesn't trust them. That's why I keep saying he and Big Purple (who's also likely quite paranoid) need some kind of guarantee – this could be a Gate, under Big Purple's control during the first phase of negotiations. Once facts convince the Dark One that he can actually help the gods seal all present and future Rifts, and this will give him a permanent position with permanent leverage, he will not need the Gate anymore. If he has the Gate, something to fall back on, he might give Thor's offer a shot, since he has nothing to lose and much to gain.

[Vendanna]

Question guys. Did Durkon died dishonored? since he went under his leader orders to talk to the opposing team cleric to try to reach an agreement with an always evil species and now causing the "good party trying to save the world" to lose one of their most important pieces.

Durkon would then be facing Hel in person instead of Thor. no?

[Worldsong]

Question guys. Did Durkon died dishonored? since he went under his leader orders to talk to the opposing team cleric to try to reach an agreement with an always evil species and now causing the "good party trying to save the world" to lose one of their most important pieces.

Durkon would then be facing Hel in person instead of Thor. no?

1. Goblins are 'Usually Neutral Evil', not Always.
2. Pretty sure saying that Durkon's honour is besmirched by him being willing to talk to a goblin falls under the kind of discrimination The Giant explicitly opposes.
3. Since when is it dishonourable to try and negotiate a peaceful solution?

There's exactly one point which might be considered dishonourable, and that's him acting against Roy's orders. Which immediately gets countered by Durkon acting on behalf of his deity instead, whose authority supersedes Roy's.

[hroþila]

Also, pretty sure this would count as dying in combat, which is all it takes really.
(Being taken out immediately in the surprise round is no different from being killed after a gruelling 5-hour battle)

[Effluvium]

I have been a Redcloak fan for quite some time, but this is just foolish. Self-destructive and foolish.

I've been thinking about it a tad and I think I disagree.

Redcloak has no way to determine if anything Durkon says is true. He may feel that if Thor is really in on this, Durkon will come straight back and he can accept the basic premise. If Thor isn't invested in it, Durkon is gone and he's no worse off.
Just a theory.

[TRH]

Also, y'know, if you eventually get around to establishing that it is a problem, there's an obvious solution: cut out Hel's side instead of TDO's side. The previous book works just fine as Hel trying to seize power, without the extra wrinkle that Hel might not survive the interim after failing. On the other hand, removing TDO's side leaves the gaping plot hole of why the gods would be willing to let things play out this time when they haven't hesitated to pull the plug on a squillion other worlds.

Is that an unbearable plot hole? Thor, at least, has a reason not to pull the plug due to the wager. The others had reasons seemingly unrelated dealings with the TDO. Again, the only one who definitely is swayed by that point specifically is Loki. I have no idea why you say Thor is as well. He has that as a consideration, but it's hardly the only one. Hell, even the wager isn't his only other concern; he honestly seems to want to give mortals another chance, despite the risks involved.

[Fanatic-Templar]

Interesting.

I expected the result, but not the way we got there. In hindsight, this makes more sense for the story, focusing on Redcloak's character flaws rather than cosmic politics.

[pendell]

With regard to the one throwaway strip with a goblin BBQing hydra, I would argue that opening a business constitutes a neutral act, not a good or an evil one. That doesn't even tell us anything about that particular goblin's alignment, let alone the entire species.

I assume that, on the prime material plane, the lives of most mortal creatures comprise mostly neutral acts. They wake up, they eat, they provide for their families, they work, they buy and sell. This is the basic, common lot of good and evil creatures, goblins and elves and humans alike..

A good creature does mostly neutral acts interspersed with a sprinkling of 'random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty'. While they are also capable of evil, the acts are far less common than either the neutral or the good acts. These aren't outsiders or Devas made from pure goodness after all, simply mortals trying to scrape by.

An evil creature , like the Lannisters in game of thrones, do mostly neutral acts but also make time to advance their own interests through conniving, through backstabbing, and through ruthlessness. They also are not wholly devoid of compassion, but such acts are rare compared to the other kinds, and still more so acts of pure altruism, acts done to help others when one has nothing to gain or even in direct contradiction to one's own self-interest.

While I believe there is, statistically, such a thing as a good-aligned goblin, we haven't actually seen any evidence of that in the strip. Even the best of them ,

Spoiler: start of darkness

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Right-eye, at the end of his life

is arguably acting out of rational self-interest, not altruism. I certainly don't recall seeing him or any member of his family doing something for someone else when it was of no benefit to them whatsoever. So we've seen evidence of neutral goblins. But we haven't seen any evidence of good goblins (yet), and a single neutral act by a single goblin in opening a restaurant is completely insignificant; we can expect neutral acts even from such as Tarquin. We haven't seen anything of the goblin chef's pattern of life, so it tells us nothing about his alignment. The strip is meaningless for the sake of this argument.

Besides which, given Rich's well-known vegetarianism, from his view selling hydraburgers, the flesh of a living creature, might well be an evil act

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

Have you SEEN his prices?

Well, you don't make to a million GP by selling at a loss, do you?

It's the one ace they have and if they seal up the Snarl, then the gods will see no threat from the goblins anymore and then go back to abusing them.

Whether or not this is objectively true, I am sure that Redcloak, and probably TDO, believe this to be true.

... this goblin should have gotten to therapy years ago

He was too busy implementing the Plan to have time for such luxuries; plus, I doubt Xykon would give him time off for such luxuries.

Redcloak is obeying his god, which he served for all his adult life. The only existing god for all goblinoids, in a world where goblins were created to serve as xp fodder. He has been explicitly instructed to not screw up the Plan and so he does.

So he does screw it up, or he does as he's told?

... it's not so much a hostage situation as it is a”mutually assured destruction” policy (minus the part with mutually… which makes it a hostage situation of sorts, really).

Except that the mortals are destroyed, and the immortals (all of the gods at the three moots, and maybe redcloak and various demigods) are not destroyed. Not seeing a M.A.D. deal here.

Durkon is absolutely going to die and get curled up in a litle spherical thing. Minrah will whisk it away, and the whole deal will serve as the setup for the intrudoction of the new ally the Giant promised to include in the first half of the book. Durkon will need a Resurrection, and we know a character who can do that: the lizard who Raised the Oracle (his next assignment was to be a Ressurection). He has access to the Oracle who knows everything, and a partner who can teleport once the Oracle tells them where to find the Order. It's about time for Team Tiamat to get directly involved in the plot, anyway.

OK, that's a fun call back to a dead oracle.

[Dracon1us]

TEAM EVIL has two stakeholder, bound by mutual interest.

even if Redcloack is convinced, our green friend can't leave the team in a blatant manner. subtlety is required when powerful undeads are in the game

Durkon has planted a seed. it will take time to grows.

but the best line of attack is the pincer: so now one member of Team Good (Belkar? V.?) shoud reach Xykon
and tell him "you are the true power. Ditch the lameassGoblin , and the God will reward you in an outstanding manner..." that will really dig a rift between the evil guys

[Conradine]

So he does screw it up, or he does as he's told?

Redcloak is following the Plan. Durkon's proposal implied abandoning it.

[TRH]

He was too busy implementing the Plan to have time for such luxuries; plus, I doubt Xykon would give him time off for such luxuries.

He needed the therapy before he met Xykon, honestly. Actually, I've kind of always wondered how active most Crimson Mantle wearers before Redcloak were in terms of implementing the Plan. Because even right before he met Xykon Redcloak seemed to be pursuing unrelated endeavors, and his predecessor seemed to be minding his own business.

[KorvinStarmast]

He needed the therapy before he met Xykon, honestly. Actually, I've kind of always wondered how active most Crimson Mantle wearers before Redcloak were in terms of implementing the Plan. Because even right before he met Xykon Redcloak seemed to be pursuing unrelated endeavors, and his predecessor seemed to be minding his own business.

Not enough detail, I suppose, but as Rich pointed out, the Paladin versus Goblin strife had been going on for generations. That particular goblin-village-raid by the SG acted as a an emotional catalyst - via the the death of his family members -

Spoiler: SOD

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which coupled with the shock of that download of all that is the crimson mantel bearer, etc

It provided synergy. But wasn't every previous redcloak bearer also stuck with "where do we get a powerful enough arcane caster to do our ritual?"
If I recall from SOD, it was a long hard road for he and his brother to slowly rebuild their lives. Xykon in this case acted as both a catalyst and an ally. For once, a redcloak bearer has an ally who just might enable their dream (previously frustrated due to the lack of an arcane spell caster of sufficient power) to come true. And so on ... so with that considered, I don't think 'minding ther own business' was quite the issue, it was "can't seem to get an arcane caster on board who is powerful enough to get the Plan completed."

[Dausuul]

Not enough detail, I suppose, but as Rich pointed out, the Paladin versus Goblin strife had been going on for generations.

That may be true, but the Dark One's Plan is a relatively recent development, simply because the rifts didn't appear until recently, and the Gates had to be built before they could be put under TDO's control.

My guess is there have only been one or two Crimson Mantle bearers previous to Redcloak.

[Dion]

If Durkon dies here, does Hel get his soul?

It's a death during a negotiation, not a battle

I’m thinking that maybe... MAYBE... courageously negotiating with the high priest of an evil god trying to destroy the world is an honorable way to die.

[Fyraltari]

That may be true, but the Dark One's Plan is a relatively recent development, simply because the rifts didn't appear until recently, and the Gates had to be built before they could be put under TDO's control.

My guess is there have only been one or two Crimson Mantle bearers previous to Redcloak.

At least three.

Spoiler: SoD

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The previous Bearer of the Crimson Mantle states that the Guard is coming for him just as they came for his master before him and her master before her.

I would venture the guess that their low life expectancy is linked to their abysmal success rate in taking a Gate over.

[ebarde]

Although I do wonder why Durkon didn't went to Hel in his second death. I don't see any way whatsoever where that would be honorable tbh. Also, there's no evidence to support that the bearer didn't had another function before the plan.