OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

On the subject of interregna... Though Thor comments that this world being a "self-aware stick figure fantasy parody" was "scraping the bottom of the idea barrel", it's clear from his comments about Odin's unwellness that the previous world had some strong common features: "The Northerners ended up as barbarians [etc.]".

So what do race-specific gods do when those races don't exist in the current world? For example, the Elvish gods in a world of sentient movie theater snacks?

Besides which, given Rich's well-known vegetarianism, from his view selling hydraburgers, the flesh of a living creature, might well be an evil act

Was that stuff about Rich being vegetarian just part of the joke, or is he really? Just curious, as I'm vegetarian myself.

[The MunchKING]

So what do race-specific gods do when those races don't exist in the current world? For example, the Elvish gods in a world of sentient movie theater snacks?

"Evolve or Die".

Besides most of them probably aren't gods of Elves exclusively, they cover other elfy Domains, like Nature, Wilderness, and Being a Prat Towards Those Lesser Species. So if all Gods are weird Humanoid creatures in the Snack-Based world, the difference between a Human-form God and an Elf-form one is probably cosmetic to the snack-worshippers.

[Grey Watcher]

"Evolve or Die".

Besides most of them probably aren't gods of Elves exclusively, they cover other elfy Domains, like Nature, Wilderness, and Being a Prat Towards Those Lesser Species. So if all Gods are weird Humanoid creatures in the Snack-Based world, the difference between a Human-form God and an Elf-form one is probably cosmetic to the snack-worshippers.

Also, I've always had impression that the Elven gods all apotheosized in this world. And even if they didn't, they may very well have lobbied specifically to make sure Elves were a thing in this setting. And if they get overrulled/outvoted, the fact that there are enough for there to be, for example, and elven god of magic and arcane secrets, so they might be able to work out sharing a portfolio with the Western pantheon's main god(dess) of magic. And if there's a world without Elves that lasts long enough, the sheer weight of mortal belief might cause them to lose the specific association with Elves.

[Goblin_Priest]

He is still alive so he hasn't failed his save yet.

He's being affected, that's reason enough to believe he failed. The Cleric Duel showed us that successful saves on SoDs just have no visuals. First time we saw that spell used, it also took two panels to resolve, for dramatic purposes.

[Metastachydium]

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Right but having re-read that part of the book Redcloak's master doesn't even specify "the paladins" he simply says "they" which is very vague.

Yeah, hence „open to interpretation.” Not that it's a detail of crucial importance.

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So that's basically what I proposed, a Bearer preparing to attack Soon's Gate?

[/spoiler]

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I'd say that's unlikely. If he had found out where that Gate is and made preparations to seize it, he would have given an ample amount of time for the Dark One to update the log in the Mantle. What I was trying to suggest is as follows: the Mantle is evacuated from the West and gets back to the South (we know it's made its way back across the ocean in some way) where there are more goblins with more resources; the new Bearer begins to amass troops and make arangements for a new round but in a manner sloppy enough that the Azurites learn about it. The Sapphire Guard now has knowledge of a goblin cleric in, say, the South who intends to make a run for the Gate. Soon's being the closest one, they naturally assume it is the target, and they intercept the cleric en route to the Western Continent. Or something like that.

[Worldsong]

The argument "Rich wouldn't make a species be 'always evil', that would be racist" already tricked many of us into believing VampDurkon HAD to be a true ally of the OotS...

I think he will tell us "no, goblins aren't always evil, but Redcloak IS evil, due to his fanatism...".

I think Redcloak is definitely Evil, my only point of contention would be that I don't think his type of Evil makes him inherently irrational.

[Rogar Demonblud]

He's being affected, that's reason enough to believe he failed. The Cleric Duel showed us that successful saves on SoDs just have no visuals. First time we saw that spell used, it also took two panels to resolve, for dramatic purposes.

We also see people start to show signs of being hit by a spell before making the save to throw it off (Roy's swirly eyes at the Godsmoot). It's just a visual way of adding tension instead of using audio cues from a soundtrack.

[Grey Watcher]

He's being affected, that's reason enough to believe he failed. The Cleric Duel showed us that successful saves on SoDs just have no visuals. First time we saw that spell used, it also took two panels to resolve, for dramatic purposes.

Yeah, but Rich has been known to change the artistic convention. Compare Azure City's High Priest saving against poison (no visual effect except Redcloak's glowing hand) vs. Durkon saving against the same spell (the green splotch appears on his face). (Yes, he doesn't outright state that he saved, but why else boast about the benefits of being a dwarf.

(I'm almost positive there are other examples out there, but I can't think of any.)

Point is that, aside from the silly joke in #456, Rich seems to prefer depicting the spell effect failing rather than just not happening at all because it's more visually exciting. Until and unless Durkon actually splotches on screen, it's possible that "stretches, but does not break" is how this comic depicts a successful save against Implosion.

[TRH]

He's being affected, that's reason enough to believe he failed. The Cleric Duel showed us that successful saves on SoDs just have no visuals. First time we saw that spell used, it also took two panels to resolve, for dramatic purposes.

The Cleric Duel was a joke, though. It's not the most conclusive precedent ever, especially since the art style has changed again in the meantime, and we've never seen someone make an Implosion save specifically before.

[understatement]

He's being affected, that's reason enough to believe he failed. The Cleric Duel showed us that successful saves on SoDs just have no visuals. First time we saw that spell used, it also took two panels to resolve, for dramatic purposes.

By pure story terms, Implosion creates a "destructive resonance" inside Durkon, and the Fort save would come from his body resisting the pull to collapse inward. I think that's what we're seeing here -- Durkon being surprised as the resonance appears in his body.

[pendell]

Was that stuff about Rich being vegetarian just part of the joke, or is he really? Just curious, as I'm vegetarian myself.

Rich really is a vegetarian. He mentioned, in the published book's notes, that his description of Malack's plan for industrial style vampirism was a deliberate echo of real-world slaughterhouses. Yes, Rich really is a vegetarian for ethical reasons and he's put it in his strip.

I have a different viewpoint from him, but I respect his convictions.
And I am serious in wondering if he would consider opening a business based around butchery to be an evil act. It wouldn't be by RAW, obviously, but OOTS world doesn't run strictly on those.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[pendell]

By pure story terms, Implosion creates a "destructive resonance" inside Durkon, and the Fort save would come from his body resisting the pull to collapse inward. I think that's what we're seeing here -- Durkon being surprised as the resonance appears in his body.

I have to wonder if Redcloak has any devices, such as the scarlet mantle, which will boost his chances of a successful kill with implosion. Redcloak is an intelligent combatant; I have a hard time believing he'd burn a daily 9th level spell slot if it had only a 50% chance of success. I'd want at least 90%.

Or maybe that's my JRPG background coming through; I have a preference for direct damage because FF enemies are either A) low-level mooks you can kill in one round or B) bosses with contractual boss immunity that protects them from almost all status effects anyway.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Xlsfd]

I know I'm late to the discussion, but... it's just too bad that neither Durkon nor Redcloak can cast "Summon Proxy" to let Thor and The Dark One speak directly without the risk of creating a two-color snarl, isn't it?

While Durkon cast "Summon Proxy" during the Godsmoot, that was the High Priest of Hel in Durkon's body rather than Durkon himself.

[dancrilis]

He's being affected, that's reason enough to believe he failed. The Cleric Duel showed us that successful saves on SoDs just have no visuals. First time we saw that spell used, it also took two panels to resolve, for dramatic purposes.

On the other hand panels 8, 9 10 imply that the new art style may include visual save taking effects (and the comic has treated the more important characters as deserving more visual effects than unnamed NPCs - see Miko's fall compared to SOD).

[konradknox]

Oh it lines up perfectly with Start Of Darkness. Redcloak never gave a **** about the goblin people. He has always been a hateful nerd, the kind who is perfect in his self righteousness, and an ideal target for a bully like Xykon to gobble up as a crony. Now that Redcloak has Xykon's phylactery under control he thinks he has the upper hand and does not need help. He does not trust anyone but his own choices. That was why it was so important to him to choose Xykon over Right Eye. Someone has to be the butch, someone has to be the bitch.

[svankensen]

I love an anti-villain done right. Redcloak hates himself for all the horrors he has caused, and his stubborness shows the corrupting effect doing the wrong things for the right reasons has in the long term. Honestly, Redcloak has the best arc in all the comic.

[Redwood Elf]

"Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" - Wash, Firefly

[Wizard_Lizard]

I think I liked redcloak better with at least some moral ambiguity. But oh wellll..

[Jacky720]

I love an anti-villain done right. Redcloak hates himself for all the horrors he has caused, and his stubborness shows the corrupting effect doing the wrong things for the right reasons has in the long term. Honestly, Redcloak has the best arc in all the comic.

It gets better: Redcloak does wrong things for the wrong reasons which he attempts to justify both before and after as being the right reasons.

[Samoja1]

Hey everyone, this is one long thread, so instead of fishing for quotes over 19 pages i will just adress the points directly.

About the cliffhanger, i think that's just for dramatic effect, most likely next frame, instead of seing Durkon explode we will just warp to RC dusting off his cloak and telling his lackeys to clean up the mess, reason we didn't see Durkon explode(or rather implode) is because RB did not want to press the point, in a few words Durkon is dead, no fakeout. While i can't say for sure it is perfectly possible he is dead dead this time, no resurrection. This would serve to drastically up the stakes. In a world with resurrection death does not have that much meaning, you just temporarily remove the piece from the game. If RC has the ability to permanently remove characters from the game that changes the equation, and what better way to drive that point home then permanently kill off such beloved character as Durkon.

On RCs motivation, he is clearly in too deep, i won't go into too much detail, as others alteady did it, but i don't think he is playing some sort of long game or targeting something else. The real question here is whether RB has a plan to resolve this situation. As someone who did some amateur writing i know that sometimes you write yourself into a corner, inherent issue with episodic works like this. In not too many words RB set up a situation where the only way heroes suceed is if they can persuade RC to cooperate, otherwise either Snarl breaks out, World gets destroyed, Dark One starves to death, or RC suceeds, World gets destroyed, Dark One starves to death. Whether OoTS suceeds or fails matters little, now that 4 out of 5 rifts are open this Worlds days are numbered, unless Dark One agrees to help seal them up again Snarl will leak out and devour the World in a few years. Now there are two possibilities here, either RB knows exactly where he is going, in which case he will pull off some really complicated save at the last moment, which nobody even thought of, or, he realized there was no way that parlay can succeed, and he did the only thing that made sense, it happens sometimes in writing, characters lead you down the path you didnt plan for. If it's no.2 then RB has a problem, because his perfect solution just went out the window and now he has to come up with a plot resolution nobody will call BS on, and that's, believe me, not an easy task whatsoever, that's what writing yourself in a corner means. I really hope it's no1, and RB has a plan laid out already, but i am fully aware it's not a guarantee.

About the planet we saw in the Snarl, i see two possibilities, option 1. It is a trap, the world is a mirrage created by Snarl to lure in unsuspecting food.

Option 2. Snarl is sort of "one true God". We never find out for sure what happened to the Eastern Pantheon, we just know they dissapeared. It is possible however they merged with the Snarl and that's how he became sentient. Maybe Snarl has been trying to break out all this years because he wants to merge all pantheons into one singular all powerful entity, and the worlds he devoured(that were not blown up) still exist inside him, it's even possible Snarl is our Universe, much more expansive then one planet affairs gods have been creating. But until he gains acces to other 3 pantheons Snarl can't create anything, just absorb.

On the Dark One's motivation, whether he really wants to secure better future for goblins or he is just out for vengance, i really doubt he is suicidal. Reason he is dangerous is because he is operating from the incomplete information. He knows Snarl is powerful, but he does not know he can never be stopped by less then 4 colors, and he does not know how many worlds there were before this one. He especially does not know that if the world is destroyed he starves to death. In this case it's a lose lose for him, if he is after better terms for goblins again, refer to what i said earlier, either he suceeds or he fails, either way world gone, Dark One starves to death, the end. But if he is after vengance, again, either he fails, Sbarl Breaks out and bye bye World, Dark One starves, or he is sucessful, he transports Snarl ro astral plane, all the gods die, but what now, Dark One is the only one left so he hasn't a snowball's chance in hell to contain Snarl, or create a new world, so the World gets nomed by Snarl, and now either Dark one gets nomed too or he slowly starves to death yet again. I really don't think he knows those are his options, but being stubborn he refuses to open channels with which he could learn all this. If he knew i think he would modify his plan any which way.

[Jason]

I love an anti-villain done right. Redcloak hates himself for all the horrors he has caused, and his stubborness shows the corrupting effect doing the wrong things for the right reasons has in the long term. Honestly, Redcloak has the best arc in all the comic.

He does have a nice arc, but I would call him a sympathetic villain rather than an anti-villain. He looks like an anti-villain when standing next to Xykon, true (most villains would), and he claims to be seeking his people's welfare, which might be viewed as a noble cause if it didn't come at other people's expense. But this is merely a cloak for his real motivation: to be proven right. He doesn't care for the welfare of the goblin people nearly as much as he does about maintaining his own lies about himself, and the obsession to prove that every terrible thing he has done was necessary when his plan succeeds. He refuses to even consider other options that might benefit his people more than his Plan because they would destroy his self-image.

Also he's a blatant racist.

Has he really shown any traits that might be considered "noble"? He occasionally shows care for other goblins, but not to the point that he won't throw their lives away or kill them himself for his precious Plan.

[RblDiver]

Random thought, what if TDO is now out of the picture...but somehow they make contact with someone on the planet inside the rift, and get THAT god to help out? I really doubt it as this is the last book, so I don't think there'd be enough time to do it justice, but I'm just musing.

[Samoja1]

Random thought, what if TDO is now out of the picture...but somehow they make contact with someone on the planet inside the rift, and get THAT god to help out? I really doubt it as this is the last book, so I don't think there'd be enough time to do it justice, but I'm just musing.

If the planet inaide the rift is real and not just some kind of mirrage then the whole paradigm shifts, because that means Snarl does not in fact destroy everything and everyone, so sealing it would not be necesarry anymore.

[Jason]

If the planet inaide the rift is real and not just some kind of mirrage then the whole paradigm shifts, because that means Snarl does not in fact destroy everything and everyone, so sealing it would not be necesarry anymore.

One possibility is that the world is things the Snarl took into its own realm and preserved. Another possibility is that the Snarl has itself become a creator of worlds, as well as a destroyer of them. The world in the rift might be the Snarl's original creation.

[LordofTurtles]

I'm pretty sure Redcloak just gave up the goose here. Remember what Thor said he and the other gods needed to make the bulwarks against the Snarl? A tiny drop of Quiddity, a single 9th level spell slot would do it actually. And Implosion is a 9th level spell. Hitting Durkon with it will probably give Thor the juice he needs to do what he's looking to do.

[Jaziggy]

RC does not trust Thor or any other Good-aligned God or the non-goblin mortal races to adhere to the spirit of any bargain. In order to feel good about entering into any agreement, he would need security. Something that binds the Gods and the mortal races to adhering to their side of things.

The only possible tool that would actually secure the bargain is the Snarl itself. It is the only thing in the universe that threatens the Gods. There's no way RC can accept a bargain that requires him to surrender control of the Snarl.

I note that RC seems to be coming along with Durkon, but his 'realization face' happens right as Durkon says 'seal up that giant hole in tha sky above yer city'. Then he looks at the ground, grieves for a moment, and attacks Durkon. Durkon is a persuasive mediator, but he lacks the ability to bind the Gods to any bargain he makes, and RC believes his faith in them (and Lord Hinjo as well) to be misplaced.

Once he's come to that conclusion, that he can't make this bargain, he's got two choices- let the Order seal up the Snarl, or stop them. He and Xykon may be powerful enough to threaten the Gods with the Snarl even as they are destroying the world, or to escape. It's not good odds, but it's better than the nothing he gets if he lets them take away his only leverage over the Gods. At that point, the reality is that the party needs Durkon alive to have any hope of defeating Xykon et. al. and destroying him is the best tactical move.

We all come at this from a place of total credulity with regard to the Gods and mortal races. RC comes from the exact opposite place- he expects them, based on long experience, to betray their bargain at every turn. Given that reality, his decision making is coolly rational. It's a shame, and he seems to think so... but it's the only choice he would feel he has.

[Samoja1]

I'm pretty sure Redcloak just gave up the goose here. Remember what Thor said he and the other gods needed to make the bulwarks against the Snarl? A tiny drop of Quiddity, a single 9th level spell slot would do it actually. And Implosion is a 9th level spell. Hitting Durkon with it will probably give Thor the juice he needs to do what he's looking to do.

We've been over this, it needs to be used in a speciffic ritual, not just a level 9 spell will do.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm pretty sure Redcloak just gave up the goose here. Remember what Thor said he and the other gods needed to make the bulwarks against the Snarl? A tiny drop of Quiddity, a single 9th level spell slot would do it actually. And Implosion is a 9th level spell. Hitting Durkon with it will probably give Thor the juice he needs to do what he's looking to do.

Thor needs Redcloak to use a 9th level spell slot of power (either by given up a spell slot for good or by intentionally discharging it in a specific way, which definitely would not take the form of the spell itself), not just cast a spell.

[understatement]

I know I'm late to the discussion, but... it's just too bad that neither Durkon nor Redcloak can cast "Summon Proxy" to let Thor and The Dark One speak directly without the risk of creating a two-color snarl, isn't it?

While Durkon cast "Summon Proxy" during the Godsmoot, that was the High Priest of Hel in Durkon's body rather than Durkon himself.

Casting apparations of their gods that's visible for miles around really doesn't seem like a great idea, especially with Xykon nearby.

Also, Redcloak wouldn't have the spell (if it's even available to him) because he wouldn't know he'd meet with Durkon today.

text

This post is really nice, although I'm going to disagree with you on Durkon dying (also for my own morale) because narratively he's killed by a stranger he only knew for a few minutes. Previous main character deaths were done by other characters close or important to them personally -- see Roy and Xykon, or Durkon with a former friend (Malack) or lover (Hilgya), or Nale by his own dad, or Right-Eye by [spoiler], or Shojo by Miko, and other examples.

***

Since we're on Redcloak, I guess I'll throw in why I like him: he's evil in a smart way (or smart in an evil way?), and I like my characters fast on their mental feet.

[Samoja1]

RC does not trust Thor or any other Good-aligned God or the non-goblin mortal races to adhere to the spirit of any bargain. In order to feel good about entering into any agreement, he would need security. Something that binds the Gods and the mortal races to adhering to their side of things.

The only possible tool that would actually secure the bargain is the Snarl itself. It is the only thing in the universe that threatens the Gods. There's no way RC can accept a bargain that requires him to surrender control of the Snarl.

I note that RC seems to be coming along with Durkon, but his 'realization face' happens right as Durkon says 'seal up that giant hole in tha sky above yer city'. Then he looks at the ground, grieves for a moment, and attacks Durkon. Durkon is a persuasive mediator, but he lacks the ability to bind the Gods to any bargain he makes, and RC believes his faith in them (and Lord Hinjo as well) to be misplaced.

Once he's come to that conclusion, that he can't make this bargain, he's got two choices- let the Order seal up the Snarl, or stop them. He and Xykon may be powerful enough to threaten the Gods with the Snarl even as they are destroying the world, or to escape. It's not good odds, but it's better than the nothing he gets if he lets them take away his only leverage over the Gods. At that point, the reality is that the party needs Durkon alive to have any hope of defeating Xykon et. al. and destroying him is the best tactical move.

We all come at this from a place of total credulity with regard to the Gods and mortal races. RC comes from the exact opposite place- he expects them, based on long experience, to betray their bargain at every turn. Given that reality, his decision making is coolly rational. It's a shame, and he seems to think so... but it's the only choice he would feel he has.

And what happens if the Gods call his bluff? RC still operates from PoW that the gods would not destroy the world just to stop him, if he saw the graveyard of the worlds he would realize how wrong that assumption was, and then what? Let's say he suceeds and brings the Snarl to the astral plane? Again if there is one thing evil is not that's suicidal, if you threaten people with a weapon you should make sure it's a gun and not a grenade, Snarl is a grenade, they fire him at the gods and everyone dies, including the Dark One.