OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[Schroeswald]

It was going so well! Redcloak you complete and utter moron, Durkon was getting you a good deal.

We all knew it would fall apart soon, but I expected action or Roy to mess it up, not Redcloak to try to kill Durkon.

[Ivrytwr]

I remember seeing Redcloak using that spell for the first time ... Thought it was a neat graphic by Giant.
But on Durkon! Going to have to start punching that frequent resurrections card.

[B. Dandelion]

Maybe that should be since I am equal parts heartbroken and enraged.

I didn't think it would end well, but it was getting so hopeful for a while that I began to think something else would have to break things up rather than Redcloak just snapping on a dime like that. What a cruel and short-sighted thing to do.

[MReav]

I hope he prepared Death Ward.

Death Ward won't do anything. Implosion kills people in far different manner than what Death Ward would protect against.

On the plus side, at least he's got his 9th level spell.

[Edea]

Well, technically if Durkon was still under the effect of Wind Walk and he'd been prepping to go back into the gaseous state while Redcloak made up his mind, the Implosion would stop working (it needs to be used on corporeal creatures) and he'd be able to get out of range (600 ft movement speed).

[jamwno]

Yeah, Implosion would be *much* worse if aimed at Elan, Haley, or V. No 'x's in the eyes, so not dead yet. I bet he'll make the save. But where things go next? That's the interesting question...
As an aside, I'm not convinced Death Ward protects against implosion, since it doesn't have the Death tag like Power Word: Kill.

[KorvinStarmast]

And it appears that Durkon will be telling Thor very quickly, "Nae, tha didn'a work."

That earned a RL cackle, that did. Thanks.

Implosion specifically doesn't affect gaseous forms and incorporeal creatures.
Wind Walk turns one into gas and has a duration of hour/level.
Durkon and RC never touched.

In other words, holding out hope :)

Ok, that's nice, and also I need to go back and see when/if Mass Death Ward was cast?

[The_Weirdo]

That would be incredibly stupid. It is just what it looks like: Redclaok refusing to work with Durkon because he was always going to because of his baggage.

Possible.

I doubt Durkon will die there, however, and he's still under the effect of Wind Walk, so, at least, there's that. That said, if that's what RC is doing, then Rich will have to come up with new ways to ensure goblinkind (which is, it bears reminding, not Redcloak) gets the fair deal it deserves.

[pendell]

Oh gods damnit, we JUST got that cleric back!

Good thing we've got a spare then. I've been expecting something like this since Minrah joined the Order.

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean Durkon's dead yet. SRD Implosion tells us that a saving throw vs. fortitude will negate the spell, and Durkon has high constitution. He resisted Malack's poison attack without trouble, so I think he has a good chance of resisting implosion as well.

Be that as it may, Durkon has come alone into the enemy camp and now he's up against Redcloak plus allies. I suppose the MITD might save his life, or he might have some kind of contingency against treachery, but this looks very bad for Durkon.

I expect him to be either killed or taken prisoner, causing Minrah to backfill for him. Redcloak has obviously made the determination that 1) He doesn't want this deal 2) The band of adventurers must be eliminated 3) There's no reason to send Durkon back with warning of what will happen. 4) Eliminating the highest level cleric on the team is a great way to start this off.

I don't want to say two wrongs make a right -- because they don't -- but there was always the possibility this would end in violence. By Start of Darkness,

Spoiler

Show

The Dark One himself was slain in a parley by treacherous humans. What you do, comes back to you.

I can understand why Redcloak rejected the deal though. Durkon is well meaning and idealistic, but there's no way he can get the other gods or the other humans to go along with this deal. We know there's going to be a crusade against Gobbotopia by Azure City, and we know Goblins will continue to be walking XP for humans outside towns. There's nothing Durkon can offer that can't be undone by human treachery -- and while Durkon himself is honorable, Tarquin and his crew are decidedly NOT.

I think I agree with Redcloak that the Dark One is going to need some kind of big stick to keep the other gods and the humans honest. The fact is, though, I understand why the other gods aren't willing to let him have the ability to end them. The Snarl is too dangerous -- it could destroy them all and leave nothing behind. Or , perhaps, the REAL plan is for the Dark One to actually use the Snarl to kill all the gods, destroy the world and remake it into a world where HE is the only god.

Of course, if he did this he would eventually lose control and be devoured by it, and nothing would be left.

We'll see how this all plays out, but Durkon's first mistake was not negotiating from a position of strength. For a cleric, he doesn't really seem to have much of a wisdom score.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dr.Zero]

Long time reader, first time answerer.



Implosion specifically doesn't affect gaseous forms and incorporeal creatures.
Wind Walk turns one into gas and has a duration of hour/level.
Durkon and RC never touched.

In other words, holding out hope :)

It seems done on purpose, but the author should houserule a bit wind walk to make it work.
If ww is active and you're in gaseous form, you should look like vapor, which was shown correctly when they were flying in the sky, but not now.
And if you're corporeal, you need 5 rounds to return in gaseous form.

So, according to the rules, ww shouldn't help here.

Technically, therefore, either the author cheats heavily houseruling ww, or it ends with an anti-climatic "Made my saving throw" (which is totally possible, since Durkon is clerci and a dwarf with a bonus in Const and in fortitude against spells to start with.

(I can't think of Durkon being killed, because that would require ANOTHER high level cleric to be fixed)

[Reboot]

(Mass) Death Ward works against Implosion, right?

No. It's an Evocation, not a Death Effect.

[rgrekejin]

...maybe the next strip opens with a pink counterspell?

[Fyraltari]

Possible.

I doubt Durkon will die there, however, and he's still under the effect of Wind Walk, so, at least, there's that.

Oh Durkon isn’t going to die here. I expect the next comic to show his escape with Minrah’s help. The real question is wether this will prompt the rest of the Order to attack Team Evil to « save » their comrade.

[elros]

I think it interesting that Durkon realizes that he made a mistake with Malack, and that he could should not have attacked because Malack was a vampire.
It is great to see him try to move past lawful stupid, just as he is trying to move past being passive.
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working out for him again...

[The_Weirdo]

Oh Durkon isn’t going to die here. I expect the next comic to show his escape with Minrah’s help. The real question is wether this will prompt the rest of the Order to attack Team Evil to « save » their comrade.

The other question - if my theory is incorrect, mind - is how this will play out so the goblins get a fair deal. It would be incredibly unsatisfying for them not to.

[warmachine]

Clerics have good Fort save and Dwarves have a CON bonus. Odds should be Durkon's favour. Still surprised Redcloak broke the truce.

[dancrilis]

I kindof want Durkon to die here just for the pseudo-running joke or evil clerics killing him after he tries to pseudo-befriend them (this will be the third after Malack and Hilgya).

On the otherhand he doesn't deserve it - so making his save and leaving via windwalk/word of recall I think would be better.

[EmperorSarda]

HOWEVER, it doesn't mean Durkon's dead yet. SRD Implosion tells us that a saving throw vs. fortitude will negate the spell, and Durkon has high constitution. He resisted Malack's poison attack without trouble, so I think he has a good chance of resisting implosion as well.

But that's because Dwarves also have a +2 racial bonus vs poison! Which doesn't help against Implosion.

[RandomOfAmbr]

It seems done on purpose, but the author should houserule a bit wind walk to make it work.
If ww is active and you're in gaseous form, you should look like vapor, which was shown correctly when they were flying in the sky, but not now.
And if you're corporeal, you need 5 rounds to return in gaseous form.

So, according to the rules, ww shouldn't help here.

Technically, therefore, either the author cheats heavily houseruling ww, or it ends with an anti-climatic "Made my saving throw" (which is totally possible, since Durkon is clerci and a dwarf with a bonus in Const and in fortitude against spells to start with.

(I can't think of Durkon being killed, because that would require ANOTHER high level cleric to be fixed)

You're probably right ( Rich has been known to houserule whatever fits the story best and has gone on record multiple times stating that ) ; that being said, dismissing a spell is as easy for a caster as saying "Dismiss Wind Walk" between panels, which might have happened - after all, Durkon doesn't look like vapor anymore.

"Made my saving throw" would be a nice callback to RC's fight with the High Priest of the Twelve Gods though :)

[Linneris]

Sadly, Redcloak failing to listen to reason and attacking Durkon is exactly what I expected.

[Fyraltari]

The other question - if my theory is incorrect, mind - is how this will play out so the goblins get a fair deal. It would be incredibly unsatisfying for them not to.

I see several possibilities.

(A) Redcloak is killed and some other goblin takes up the mantle.

(B) the plan is rendered unworkable throug either (1) Xykon’s death or (2) the Dark One being revealed to not want the betterment of goblinkind after all. This forces Redclaok to accept how massively he screwed up and kicks him out of his fallacy.

(C) Something very clever I haven’t thought of.

(D) Obi-Wan Kenobi.

[Dausuul]

Yeah, Implosion would be *much* worse if aimed at Elan, Haley, or V. No 'x's in the eyes, so not dead yet. I bet he'll make the save. But where things go next? That's the interesting question...
As an aside, I'm not convinced Death Ward protects against implosion, since it doesn't have the Death tag like Power Word: Kill.

Ah, good point. Well, back to "Made my saving throw."

(In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's Durkon's very first line in the next strip.)

[Ghosty]

Doesn't Durkon also get the Dwarven +2 vs spells? Rereading Class and Level geekery, it looks like he's got about a little better than 50-50 to save. (+2 to spells, +1 from 12 Constitution, +8 from 13th level Cleric---thanks, Hilgya!) Assuming no Fort-boosting magic items.

Did I do that right? Time for Refuge, or Wind Walk, or WoR or whatever means he and Minrah or V cooked up to pull his chestnuts out of the fire.

[Ron Miel]

So what do people put the odds at that "Durkon" here is some sort of illusion / sending?

I'd say none. Julia is working on a spell that would allow that. This implies that no such spell currently exists.

And Julia's spell:
1) Makes her image glow green
2) Makes a semi-transparent image.
3) Piggybacks off the blood oath.

[The_Weirdo]

I see several possibilities.

(A) Redcloak is killed and some other goblin takes up the mantle.

(B) the plan is rendered unworkable throug either (1) Xykon’s death or (2) the Dark One being revealed to not want the betterment of goblinkind after all. This forces Redclaok to accept how massively he screwed up and kicks him out of his fallacy.

(C) Something very clever I haven’t thought of.

(D) Obi-Wan Kenobi.

A would necessitate another goblin in the North Pole; that or the MitD to be a goblinoid.

B would undermine a fair bit of the seeming point of this story, not to mention how gods are semi-sorta shaped by belief and all goblins believe TDO to be operating in their interest.

C is far more possible, given how Rich operates.

D I did tell you to come to the dark side because we have salgadinhos (amazing Brazilian finger foods).

[pendell]

Clerics have good Fort save and Dwarves have a CON bonus. Odds should be Durkon's favour. Still surprised Redcloak broke the truce.

Why? Redcloak is evil, rational, and utilitarian. From that perspective:
1) Redcloak decides to reject the deal and sees further communication as pointless.
2) So what next? Tell Durkon "sorry, no deal. Go back to your friends and I wish you ill fortune in the wars to come."

There's a pretty good chance that this will result in immediate combat. And even if it doesn't, this future line continues with Durkon returning to the Order and warning them of what is about to happen. Why should Redcloak do that, when he can eliminate the team's primary cleric and healer right here and now?

As we saw in the plotline involving Tsukiko and the Elvish resistance, Redcloak is an extremely intelligent combatant who always takes the quickest, most efficient way in game to end threats and bring about the best possible solution for his cause and himself. In this case, eliminating the team cleric gives him more of an advantage than allowing him to go back alive, so of course he takes the opportunity to attempt that course of action here and now.

This action doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Unless Durkon has some kind of contingency against treachery prepared, or Xykon or the MITD intervene to save Durkon's life, perhaps to amuse Xykon, Redcloak will not take him alive.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fitzclowningham]

Redcloak might well have thought Durkon's plan was the best for everyone concerned, and especially the best for the goblinoids. Except that he and the world still have Xykon to deal with. RC is in no position to dictate terms to Xykon, who has put everything on getting the plan as he knows it accomplished. RC knows he can't get around Xykon, so the great dream of peace and prosperity for his people has to be put aside, just as he did on a much smaller scale with his brother in SOD.

[Frozenstep]

I think Durkon can make the save, and then according to a wiki I'm looking at, he can't be targeted by the same casting implosion twice, so it might turn into a cleric duel. Or maybe a pink forcecage appears around Redcloak.

Still, there's very little I would have done differently as Durkon. Giving up Azure city, not sugarcoating and promising perfection...this was a negotiation attempt worth making.

[Etilworg]

Im here to broke your hope:

If durkon made the save throw, the spell effect will not manifest ( as show in 456 ) .

[RMS Oceanic]

Aw, looks like I was right about an impending fortitude save.

I don't think Durkon will die, but it's still a shame talks have broken down. This feels better than Roy or Xykon interrupting it though, given Redcloak still has baggage.