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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    The previous hobgoblin settlement that existed in the Southern Mountains were fairly peaceful and still made a living without slaves or military operations. Those are the same people inhabiting Gobbotopia (plus a whole bunch of non-combatants, children, elderly, and other races).
    Spoiler: GDGU
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    Fairly peaceful? The only reason "peaceful" coexistence was going on at that point in time, after a bloody coup by someone who still build up a massive army portrayed as chomping at the bits to go gleefully conquer something. And even that ruler was better described as pragmatically refusing to pick a fight with people who could crush him then actually wanting long term peace for its own merits like O'chul did. There is a key difference between those mindsets and the long term projection of things. Given the culture it's unlikely it would be long before either he was forced to use that army or be deposed by it.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    So why would they suddenly release the slaves? It could be that a higher-up issued them to do so, in part of a deal struck between a goblin leader and another member on behalf of the Azurites (whether it'd be the Order, or Hinjo).
    Could be, but its not something they are going to do on their own, and the glee with which they have been shown to enjoy the entire concept and things like getting to whip workers it speaks to some ugly things about themm.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I'm not sure why Redcloak was brought up? He isn't the living emblematic soul of the goblinoids, and his decision here is on him. The original discussion was about the evolution of races.

    He kind of is, he is the high priest of their one and only god and literal champion of their peoples and causes, and I'm mostly in this because I think there are a lot of cultural and economic pressures that clearly point to Gobotopia being an expansionist Evil empire, likely with the tacit approval of their god, without having to go into the highly unfortunate evolutionary stuff the other guy is.
    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post

    Why is this culture set in stone? Surely the Empire of Blood is also heavily militarized and leans toward evil, but if the Vector Legion were to be disposed of and the slaves freed, then there is a high chance it could be improved and even reformed.
    So massive cultural shifts just don't happen overnight, it's actually one of the reasons TDO's plan as understood by RC seems so fishy, and they certainly don't change without a reason. I'm not saying Gobotopia couldn't eventually make shift away from things like chattel slavery and conquest. I am saying that they probably try to conquer a lot of nearby nations first and potential become the Evil Empire of some other group of PC's one day if they don't make that change real real fast.
    Last edited by Dragonus45; 2020-08-05 at 10:19 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #782
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I really like their honesty. Wait a minute. GAH!

    I'm hoping those lack of footprint earlier are as meaning as I thought they were.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Spoiler: GDGU
    Show
    Fairly peaceful? The only reason "peaceful" coexistence was going on at that point in time, after a bloody coup by someone who still build up a massive army portrayed as chomping at the bits to go gleefully conquer something. And even that ruler was better described as pragmatically refusing to pick a fight with people who could crush him then actually wanting long term peace for its own merits like O'chul did. There is a key difference between those mindsets and the long term projection of things. Given the culture it's unlikely it would be long before either he was forced to use that army or be deposed by it.
    Spoiler: GDGU
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    Supreme Leader II says, word for word:

    "I truly have no interest in conflict with Azure City."

    And given that eight years passed without noticeable skirmishes, I'd say he was being genuine. There's always a possibility he was lying and secretly planning to start a huge war, but there's much more proof for his words than against.



    Could be, but its not something they are going to do on their own, and the glee with which they have been shown to enjoy the entire concept and things like getting to whip workers it speaks to some ugly things about themm.
    Yes, those soldiers are brutal, evil, and I have no objection to them being filleted by Haley or the Resistance. There's also a considerable subset of the population that consists of neutral civilians (such as Goblin Dan), generations of children (goblins do have high birthing rates), and other non-slave-practicing races moving in. The demographic is constantly changing, especially since the city has just been newly founded.

    He kind of is, he is the high priest of their one and only god and literal champion of their peoples and causes, and I'm mostly in this because I think there are a lot of cultural and economic pressures that clearly point to Gobotopia being an expansionist Evil empire, likely with the tacit approval of their god, without having to go into the highly unfortunate evolutionary stuff the other guy is.
    I'm not denying the militaristic culture, but if Redcloak -- as you mentioned, the literal divine champion -- were to tell Gobbotopia "Hey! Release all the slaves," a lot of hobgoblins would heed his orders. Heck, they died for him in droves; most of them are not going to disobey a divine order.

    So massive cultural shifts just don't happen overnight, it's actually one of the reasons TDO's plan as understood by RC seems so fishy, and they certainly don't change without a reason. I'm not saying Gobotopia couldn't eventually make shift away from things like chattel slavery and conquest. I am saying that they probably try to conquer a lot of nearby nations first and potential become the Evil Empire of some other group of PC's one day if they don't make that change real real fast.
    There is an incentive to make that change real real fast -- a very large rift hanging over the city. Once the slaves are freed, the shift to a less conquering culture should be easier, because now more soldiers would become farmers and do other jobs instead of staying in the military.
    Last edited by understatement; 2020-08-05 at 10:36 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    IIRC, a nat 20 only automatically succeeds on attack rolls. Saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, etc. do not have auto-successes or auto-fails on nat 20s or nat 1s.
    I looked this one up! It's a spell thing, maybe not an All Saving Throws thing. At least in this version.

    Code:
    Automatic Failures and Successes
    A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure,
    and the spell may cause damage to exposed items 
    (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). 
    A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOver...tm#savingThrow

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Spoiler: GDGU
    Show

    Supreme Leader II says, word for word:

    "I truly have no interest in conflict with Azure City."

    And given that eight years passed without noticeable skirmishes, I'd say he was being genuine. There's always a possibility he was lying and secretly planning to start a huge war, but there's much more proof for his words than against.

    And what about the person who came after him?
    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    [spoiler=GDGU]

    Yes, those soldiers are brutal, evil, and I have no objection to them being filleted by Haley or the Resistance. There's also a considerable subset of the population that consists of neutral civilians (such as Goblin Dan), generations of children (goblins do have high birthing rates), and other non-slave-practicing races moving in. The demographic is constantly changing, especially since the city has just been newly founded.
    The demographic will be fairly static considering anyone who isn't green and has fangs is going to be risking getting stabbed or enslaved just by walking into the place.
    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I'm not denying the militaristic culture, but if Redcloak -- as you mentioned, the literal divine champion -- were to tell Gobbotopia "Hey! Release all the slaves," a lot of hobgoblins would heed his orders. Heck, they died for him in droves; most of them are not going to disobey a divine order.
    Only he isn't, he is actively a believer in the capture and enslavement of the "lesser races" and literally right here and now decided he didn't like that plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    There is an incentive to make that change real real fast -- a very large rift hanging over the city. Once the slaves are freed, the shift to a less militarisic culture should be easier, because now more soldiers would become farmers and do other jobs instead of staying in the military.
    It could just as easily be an incentive to push outward once they have a bare minimum of peace time to consolidate themselves and prepare to take control of less perilous lands. And the great thing about all those slaves, that they aren't releasing without being compelled any time soon, is that it frees up more people to go conquer things.
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  6. - Top - End - #786
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    And what about the person who came after him?
    What about Redcloak? He led the hobgoblins to war. You previously said the peace was out of pragmatism, not goodwill, which I offered a quote that suggested otherwise.

    The demographic will be fairly static considering anyone who isn't green and has fangs is going to be risking getting stabbed or enslaved just by walking into the place.

    Only he isn't, he is actively a believer in the capture and enslavement of the "lesser races" and literally right here and now decided he didn't like that plan.
    I think we're on different thought tracks here. I think the Order, or the Azurites, will make Redcloak (or even Jirix) agree to a deal -- whether by pure negotation, such as what was happening before Durkon got imploded, or strongarming him. Durkon says it himself -- it's not easy, and not everyone will be happy with it, but it's workable and very much worth going down that path.

    There are hundreds of strips left to go.

    It could just as easily be an incentive to push outward once they have a bare minimum of peace time to consolidate themselves and prepare to take control of less perilous lands. And the great thing about all those slaves, that they aren't releasing without being compelled any time soon, is that it frees up more people to go conquer things.
    It all comes down to freeing the slaves, then, and my above response is why I think it is fairly plausible. Without the slaves, I'd assume the mostly-hobgoblin city would become more like their previous settlement, able to run itself. Trade with other cities -- especially demihuman ones such as Greysky or Cliffport -- definitely carries influence both ways.

    Maybe I'm too optimistic. But hey, Elan's going to get his happy ending, which means Gobbotopia can't have its slaves, which means something must have happened from strip 1209 to, I don't know, strip 1500.

  7. - Top - End - #787
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Maybe I'm too optimistic. But hey, Elan's going to get his happy ending, which means Gobbotopia can't have its slaves, which means something must have happened from strip 1209 to, I don't know, strip 1500.
    Why? Do you think Elan is strongly emotionally invested in the fate of a bunch of slaves he may not even know exist?
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneWegner View Post
    I looked this one up! It's a spell thing, maybe not an All Saving Throws thing. At least in this version.

    Code:
    Automatic Failures and Successes
    A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure,
    and the spell may cause damage to exposed items 
    (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). 
    A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOver...tm#savingThrow
    Well color me wrong! It does make a certain amount of sense, given that saving throws are how some spells make their "attacks".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Why? Do you think Elan is strongly emotionally invested in the fate of a bunch of slaves he may not even know exist?
    ...yes? It's pretty unlikely that Haley didn't tell him of her Resistance efforts?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Especially since we know they did a full debrief at the end of DSTP. Followed by another de-briefing that evening.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Samoja1 View Post
    My point was that i don't see goblins have some sort of special trait that would preclude them from going down this path, see the post above for xlarification. You are all imagining some sort of grand campaign of extermination. History in most cases is far more mundane. Goblins will expand because every nation in history of ever expands, there are both internal and external factors that push them to expand. Again, you are free to bring up an argument why this does not apply here, but "this is imaginart world, duh" is not a good argument.
    First, the main reason a grand campaign of extermination was envisioned is because you presented a vision of goblins "conquering more and more territory until everyone else is dead or enslaved." Not much there to clarify that you mean a centuries-long series of comparatively minor border conflicts.

    Second, the main reason why this logic fails is that conquering territory is not simply a process of birthrate-governed population diffusion. Due to natural boundaries, political alliances, technological and economic differences, and various other factors, population growth does not cleanly translate to territorial expansion. Gobbotopia has every disadvantage in these other dimensions. What is more likely to happen is one of three things: starvation, emigration, or contraception. That is, Gobbotopia will be territorially contained, and its population will not continue to grow at the same rate indefinitely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Samoja1 View Post
    Even imaginary worlds have rules, and we generaly assume those rules match those in our world unless it is explicitly said otherwise.
    Indeed. The problem is when you use a simplistic ruleset because you learned one thing about evolution and you're sticking to it as absolute ground truth. And then when people protest this you assume they're just denying that there are rules.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Assuming that the only possible outcome is some grim Malthusian march to global ecological collapse and that the goblinoids will effectively become the Zerg and devour or enslave every other sentient species on stickworld if left unchecked is... certainly a conclusion one might leap to. Really feels like the kind of nihilistic Great Replacement nonsense that's peddled by contemporary racists, just given a green-skinned and fangy coat of paint.
    Last edited by Gurgeh; 2020-08-06 at 01:43 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I don't think we've seen the last of the former Supreme Leader. He seemed savvy enough to lie down and wait for the right moment to come back. It wouldn't surprise me if he was the one to end Jirix's predictable reign of terror at some point.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
    I don't think we've seen the last of the former Supreme Leader. He seemed savvy enough to lie down and wait for the right moment to come back. It wouldn't surprise me if he was the one to end Jirix's predictable reign of terror at some point.
    Jirix's...what? Just how much did people read into Jirix getting rid of Xykon's comedy relief roaches?

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by aldeayeah View Post
    I don't think we've seen the last of the former Supreme Leader. He seemed savvy enough to lie down and wait for the right moment to come back. It wouldn't surprise me if he was the one to end Jirix's predictable reign of terror at some point.
    ... I find it more likely that Jirix is the former leader having insinuated himself close to power so he could protect his people from Redcloak (not Xykon).

    Frankly I would not be at all surprised to learn he is already softening on human slavery (for concessions with Cliffport) and potentially engaging considering the very deal that Durkon proposed to Redcloak in relation to the Azurites.

    Or not.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    This may be... Extremely nitpicky, given the nature of storytelling and game mechanics and whatnot, but hear me out; I believe the theory Redcloak is casting Implosion on himself. Not because of the angles of the lines around Durkon, but because Redcloak is looking the other way, and doesn't touch Durkon.

    Per the rules for 3.5, if the spell you're casting isn't cast on a designated area (like Fireball) then it's a Targeted spell. Targeted spells require the caster to have direct line of sight to the target if you're not touching them. In essence, just because Redcloak knows Durkon is directly across the table from him and hasn't moved doesn't mean he can wave his hand and cast a targeted spell at him. A fireball or a missile of some form, sure, target the area behind you, or send the shot straight behind you, that's something casters can do to avoid looking directly at dangerous-to-look-at monsters like Medusas, but you can't cast Charm Monster without looking at them and risking whatever rolls are involved.

    Now if come next page it was Durkon getting hit by the spell and this interpretation of rules-to-story isn't actually involved, I don't blame Rich, it's a somewhat dopey restriction from a storytelling perspective, but I feel like this could lend credence to the theory Redcloak is sending himself to meet with TDO personally, as opposed to just saying no to Durkon. Redcloak does know the party has access to resurrection of some form, given he saw Durkon as a flat out vampire at the last gate and now, here he is flesh and blood, he may literally just be popping off to TDO's domain to check if this alteration to The Plan is okay, expecting that whether TDO says yay or nay, Durkon will rez Redcloak to get that 9th spell slot magic as wanted. Given the literal only line of communication Redcloak normally has is whether or not he gets spells that morning, this may be the only way to check if this deal could be made.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Okay, folks. Jirix and the hobgoblins.
    I'm mostly with understatement here (except for the idea that J. would just accept Durkon's deal as a good one and he would be a good replacement for Redcloak). As far as the whole deal with the slavery business is concerned, no, renouncing on slavery would not take a great cultural shift. They were doing decently without them for quite some time, although Hobgoblin City was huge (I did the maths on it; it must have had 75-80000 inhabitants at the very least) and did not have the resources of „the fertile Blueriver Valley” to call on. Further, yes, teling them to release the slaves would absolutely work as long as it is an order that comes from the right place. Hobgoblin City was a massively discipline- and obedience-based kraterocracy (think about it: becoming a honorary member of the society requires undergoing a ceremony of humiliation, where the nominees demonstrate that they are ready to follow orders and instructions, however painful they are and regardless whether they seem to make sense or not; becoming their leader requires showing enough strength to kill the previous one). When you tell 50 hobgoblins or 300 hobgoblins or 30000 hobgoblins to undertake some suicidal mission that does not make any apparent sense, they will mobilise en masse and just do it (even if there's little to no glory in it). If their powerful leader were to tell them that they should now release all human slaves and (ideally) show strength by making it obvious to all that the mighty hobgoblin society doesn't need those filthy humans to stay afloat, I'd bet money that they would mobilise en masse and put together some creepily efficient system of agricultural production. Orders are orders, and strength is strength.
    Moreover, we do know that their most important economic partner is Cliffport, and we do know that Cliffport absolutely intendsto „influence [Gobbotopia's] position on human slavery through economic engagement”.
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-06 at 06:01 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm thinking that Redcloak zapping Durkon may nonetheless prove useful. You see, if Redcloak agreed right now, it's possible the Dark One wouldn't give him the spell slots needed to seal the Snarl. So if Redcloak agreed right now, he might not have the power to fulfill the agreement, not if the job takes until tomorrow and the Dark One refuses to refresh his spell slots. As it is, provided Redcloak reserves one ninth-level slot, he will be able to act and save the world right up to the very end of the story.

    Assuming that's where the Giant wants to go with this, of course.

    Make no mistake: I believe Redcloak has rejected Durkon's deal and the use of implosion is not some clever move to let Durkon speak to his god or targeting someone else in the room; it is simply the most emphatic rejection possible.

    But that still leaves room for him to change his mind. As we saw in the battle of Azure City when he had a change of heart and suddenly saw hobgoblin lives as value, Redcloak IS capable of a change of heart. And while his alignment is probably permanently Evil at this point, even Evil characters can save the world. Exhibit A: Belkar.

    Oh, yes. There's one other point I want to bring up.

    I fully understand Redcloak's reluctance to take the deal, especially on the assumption that Azure City will willingly give up the land. Modern people don't appreciate this, but agricultural people have deep ties to their land. They don't simply walk away from it. And if they lose it, they don't just forget about it and walk away. There are real world precedents of ethnic groups coming back for land previously taken from them thousands of years later. Long after the original conquerors were long dead.

    I think it's going to take something like divine revelation by the 12 Gods themselves to make the Azurites give up their claim. Even if Hinjo agreed to it, even if every living human from the former Azure City agreed to it, there's no way to make it binding on future generations.

    The goodwill and decency of individual characters such as Durkon has not been enough to make peace when entire cultures nurse a grudge and a hatred for generations, until it becomes such a longstanding feud no one remembers how it all started in the first place.

    Redcloak is right; the deal Durkon is offering is no deal at all. What happens is that Redcloak and the Dark One are putting down their tangible trump card in favor of intangible promises -- and that's no deal at all. While Durkon and Hinjo would undoubtedly honor any deal they made, they can't speak for the rest of Azure city or the gods; and both those groups have more than their share of treacherous people like Kubota or Loki who are without honor.

    Still, I think it would have been better for Redcloak to counteroffer and end on a positive note, rather than straight up murder his negotiating partner. And that's because, bad deal or no, he's still too invested in the plan and being proven right than in any real benefit to the goblin people.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2020-08-06 at 06:37 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I hope 1210 gives us some insight into why Redcloak made the decision he did.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Jirix's...what? Just how much did people read into Jirix getting rid of Xykon's comedy relief roaches?
    A lot more than I would have thought. It keeps popping up and every time I'm baffled that Jirix squashing demon roaches gets translated into 'he's going to become the next dark lord'.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    ...yes? It's pretty unlikely that Haley didn't tell him of her Resistance efforts?
    Well, OK, but he doesn't know any of them Personally, so while he may be against slavery in the aggregate, I think that it would be more of a 'saving them is an adventure for another time' if the story doesn't sort them out rather than 'the story cannot end as long as there is slavery in the world because Elan wouldn't be happy!'.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackJin View Post
    Per the rules for 3.5, if the spell you're casting isn't cast on a designated area (like Fireball) then it's a Targeted spell. Targeted spells require the caster to have direct line of sight to the target if you're not touching them. In essence, just because Redcloak knows Durkon is directly across the table from him and hasn't moved doesn't mean he can wave his hand and cast a targeted spell at him. A fireball or a missile of some form, sure, target the area behind you, or send the shot straight behind you, that's something casters can do to avoid looking directly at dangerous-to-look-at monsters like Medusas, but you can't cast Charm Monster without looking at them and risking whatever rolls are involved.
    So Blind spellcasters can't cast Charm Monster or other similar spells? I thought Line of Sight, didn't require actual sight, just that you COULD see them. And if you didn't look at them you just had a miss %.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I don't generally join in on the comic discussion but this seemed as good a time as any. I've been reading Order of the Stick since 2006 (I think). I remember the little strips in the back of Dragon Magazine, and finding the site and going back to the beginning and archive bingeing (not a particularly scary prospect back then with a few hundred pages at most)

    This past year I finally managed my long term goal of collecting the various books. I'd previously picked up volumes -1, 0, 1, and 2 and managed to snag 3 and 4 in the Kickstarter years back, along with much treasured stickers and fridge magnet and a notepad which proudly keeps track of things for my Crusader in a 3.5 game (first time using it, I'm a forever GM usually). When the promotion last fall dropped, I snapped up what I was missing, volumes 5 and 6, 1/2 and the Dragon magazine collection, and I loved them all too.

    I've thrilled at moments in the webcomic in a way I haven't thrilled at any other webcomic. Several of Durkon's moments in later parts of the story are amazing, with long set up and huge pay offs that speak to a strong character rising out of the initial "Dwarf cleric who is dwarf and cleric". I tried to type out a list but if you're here reading this description you know what was awesome. It might not line up with my list, but who cares, this webcomic has so many awesome moments, big and small.

    Personally the "Start of Darkness" and "Good Deeds Gone Unpunished" (specifically "How the Paladin Got His Scar") represent the current high-points for me, though they aren't in the webcomic proper. Both are compelling and deep stories without easy answers about a set of characters who from the looks of things are about to have a real role in the climax of the story. Little references to SoD sprinkled throughout (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0708.html) really deepen Redcloak's character, and that's why, in this page today and this whole conversation so far with Durkon, I felt just such a sense of dread and hope and love for this quiet scene of two clerics talking.

    It's amazing, and I can't wait to see what happens next.
    Feel free to PM me if you want something PEACHed. I may not be one of the greats, but I'll do it if you ask.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Oh, yes. There's one other point I want to bring up.

    I fully understand Redcloak's reluctance to take the deal, especially on the assumption that Azure City will willingly give up the land. Modern people don't appreciate this, but agricultural people have deep ties to their land. They don't simply walk away from it. And if they lose it, they don't just forget about it and walk away. There are real world precedents of ethnic groups coming back for land previously taken from them thousands of years later. Long after the original conquerors were long dead.
    How does that relate to a modern person telling a story to modern people about modernized characters? By your own argument the author wouldn't appreciate it, the audience weight appreciate it, and the characters themselves wouldn't appreciate it, so it seems unlikely that this would meaningfully affect the story.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-06 at 09:23 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ScreamingGod View Post
    It looks like goblins are people, and people are stubborn.
    I guess that came with the upgrade in creature size from small to medium.


    Quote Originally Posted by ShaneWegner View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Automatic Failures and Successes
    A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure,
    and the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.
    Yeah. I fixed the formatting for you. Hope you don't mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Do you think Elan is strongly emotionally invested in the fate of a bunch of slaves he may not even know exist?
    Actually, Elan's the one character who I'd expect might be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well color me wrong!
    Just FYI, in D&D 5e, only attacks are auto hit on 20 and auto miss on 1. Saves and ability checks do not make a special thing out of a 1 or a 20 unless one is using the unique 'death saving throw' rule to see if PC lives or dies when at 0 HP. There a 1 and a 20 makes a significant difference. So you were right for a different edition of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    Jirix's...what? Just how much did people read into Jirix getting rid of Xykon's comedy relief roaches?
    I am not sure, but it puzzles me, this characterization of Jirix as some kind of monster for killing a larger than average roach. Looked to me like a person getting fid of a roach in their building. I do the same IRL with some frequency.
    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    You see, if Redcloak agreed right now, it's possible the Dark One wouldn't give him the spell slots needed to seal the Snarl.
    Ooh, nice thought. I like that line of inquiry.
    Make no mistake: I believe Redcloak has rejected Durkon's deal and the use of implosion is not some clever move to let Durkon speak to his god or targeting someone else in the room; it is simply the most emphatic rejection possible.
    Sends a message, justs as Hilgya sent a message.
    But that still leaves room for him to change his mind. As we saw in the battle of Azure City when he had a change of heart and suddenly saw hobgoblin lives as value, Redcloak IS capable of a change of heart.
    Yeah, that moment of clarity by Redcloak is one of the few scenes of his where I did the old "atta boy, Reddie, well done!" under my breath as I read it.
    I fully understand Redcloak's reluctance to take the deal, especially on the assumption that Azure City will willingly give up the land. Modern people don't appreciate this, but agricultural people have deep ties to their land. They don't simply walk away from it. And if they lose it, they don't just forget about it and walk away. There are real world precedents of ethnic groups coming back for land previously taken from them thousands of years later. Long after the original conquerors were long dead.
    Fair point, though I think Hinjo is a bit more forward thinking/modern in his outlook, thanks to how Rich writes him. We'll see.
    I think it's going to take something like divine revelation by the 12 Gods themselves to make the Azurites give up their claim.
    Hmm, that would be interesting to see, but I also think the gods won't stoop that low, in terms of messing in the affairs of mortals.

    While Durkon and Hinjo would undoubtedly honor any deal they made, they can't speak for the rest of Azure city or the gods; and both those groups have more than their share of treacherous people like Kubota or Loki who are without honor.
    Good point, and Redcloak doesn't even need to know this to suspect it, given his own penchant for treachery.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    I hope 1210 gives us some insight into why Redcloak made the decision he did.
    Heh, I hope the scene shifts back to the rest of the order just to keep the tension up ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Chivalry View Post
    I don't generally join in on the comic discussion but this seemed as good a time as any.
    It's amazing, and I can't wait to see what happens next.
    That post was a breath of fresh air, bubbling over with positivity. Thanks.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-06 at 09:58 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    How does that relate to a modern person telling a story to modern people about modernized characters? By your own argument the author wouldn't appreciate it, the audience weight appreciate it, and the characters themselves wouldn't appreciate it, so it seems unlikely that this would meaningfully affect the story.
    Er, let's just say that the "modern people don't appreciate this" part is wrong, because people reclaiming land after thousands of years (or at least the perception of such) is very much a contemporary issue. To say nothing of "reclaiming the land that was lost" ideologies more generally, which are perhaps the most common form of territorial dispute now that "I want your land, Imma take it" has fallen out of fashion in some quarters.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2020-08-06 at 09:47 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Actually, Elan's the one character who I'd expect might be.
    Elan cares about people whos names he knows at a more personal level then nameless people (panel 3)

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Jirix, the hobgoblin leader who immediately murdered his old boss’s cronies (the cockroaches) literally the second his old boss was out of sight?

    Yeah. That guy is clearly bad news.
    Last edited by Dion; 2020-08-06 at 10:14 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    I fully understand Redcloak's reluctance to take the deal, especially on the assumption that Azure City will willingly give up the land. Modern people don't appreciate this, but agricultural people have deep ties to their land. They don't simply walk away from it. And if they lose it, they don't just forget about it and walk away. There are real world precedents of ethnic groups coming back for land previously taken from them thousands of years later. Long after the original conquerors were long dead.
    There's also real world precedents of ethnic groups regularly packing up and leaving for greener pastures like it ain't even a thing. My favourite example is the Lombards when they decided to leave Pannonia for Italy so they went to the Avars like "hey, we're friends and you helped us against our enemies so our land is yours now, BUT if this Italy thing doesn't work out and we have to come back you have to give it back to us, k?". And the Avars agreed, presumably with a straight face.
    ungelic is us

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Jirix, the hobgoblin leader who immediately murdered his old boss’s cronies (the cockroaches) literally the second his old boss was out of sight?

    Yeah. That guy is clearly bad news.
    Bad news? He's slaying fiendish invaders in personal combat. Obviously he's a paladin, and they are definitively Good.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well color me wrong!
    Sure.


    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Sends a message, justs as Hilgya sent a message.
    Somehow, though, I doubt that Redcloak will immediately bring Durkon back. "What, I've got lots of diamonds..."

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