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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Geech View Post
    Your analysis of the dramatic elements surrounding this moment seems really solid to me. Thanks for cutting through the back-and-forth arguments about minutia of whether using implosion is a good idea or whether Minrah would "backfill" Durkon in OOTS.

    I find your suicide analysis a lot less compelling. This is a comic strip in which violence and murder are throw-away jokes, sometimes perpetrated by Redcloak himself. In addition, this is a fantasy world where killing yourself to talk to otherwise unreachable god with an expectation or even a plan that you might be raised from the dead is actually not outrageous. Like the murder and violence depicted in the comic, suicide for that type of purpose is far less dramatic and tragic than its real life counterpart. Finally, I think your specific comparison to 13 Reasons Why really misses the mark, partially for the reasons of drama and tragedy just mentioned and also for reasons you yourself hint at in a later post. This comic has vastly smaller reach or coverage than the show, and couldn't possibly have a similar impact. I don't understand why this one topic would suddenly be Serious Business compared to the rest of what is depicted in this comic, even at times for humor.

    That said, multiple people have mentioned that Rich has strong views about suicide, so maybe that's just his thing.
    For context:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I am not going to draw a comic where committing suicide is portrayed as a reasonable and effective solution to a problem.
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  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Thanks for providing the quote. That's a pretty definitive statement of Rich's take on the question.

  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Just a musing, but I wonder how many people who read this comic just see Redcloak as a monster and a villain in this comic?

    Cause I see him as a villiain deuteragonist

    If we're going to make a world where intelligent "monsters" are respected as people, then it would be fitting that Redcloak end the comic as the OotS's cleric
    To find in order to lose; To fall in order to stand up
    To freeze in order to ignite; To find myself within, and not fear the edge
    To die in order to be reborn to the new world

  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JSSheridan View Post
    Cause I see him as a villiain deuteragonist
    This analysis makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by JSSheridan View Post
    If we're going to make a world where intelligent "monsters" are respected as people, then it would be fitting that Redcloak end the comic as the OotS's cleric
    Thaaaaaat doesn't quite work as well given that Durkon has had a book and a fifth dedicated to establishing that he will be the main Cleric on duty. Redcloak will (hopefully) help the order, but he won't replace Durkon as the Cleric.

    I could have misinterpreted what you meant though, in which case my apologies.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Thaaaaaat doesn't quite work as well given that Durkon has had a book and a fifth dedicated to establishing that he will be the main Cleric on duty. Redcloak will (hopefully) help the order, but he won't replace Durkon as the Cleric.
    Did it though?

    Or did it just set the stage to bring us to this meeting?
    To find in order to lose; To fall in order to stand up
    To freeze in order to ignite; To find myself within, and not fear the edge
    To die in order to be reborn to the new world

  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JSSheridan View Post
    Did it though?

    Or did it just set the stage to bring us to this meeting?
    I don't like the idea that Rich established Durkon as a loved and important figure both in his backstory and for the party only for him to be discarded at the last possible moment before the final book really gets going.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
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  7. - Top - End - #847
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JSSheridan View Post
    If we're going to make a world where intelligent "monsters" are respected as people, then it would be fitting that Redcloak end the comic as the OotS's cleric
    Unless... the entire OOtS are all replaced by evil clerics! Leaky Windstaff, Hilgya, Malack, Tsukiko, the Orc Shaman of Giggles, and Redcloak all team up to solve mysteries...

    Maybe they can drive around in a van with greyview or something
    Last edited by Dion; 2020-08-06 at 10:47 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #848
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Unless... the entire OOtS are all replaced by evil clerics! Leaky Windstaff, Hilgya, Malack, Tsukiko, the Orc Shaman of Giggles, and Redcloak all team up to solve mysteries...

    Maybe they can drive around in a van with greyview or something
    Sticky Doo was pretty good considering the premise, but Order of the Stick Variety Hour was just a cheap cash-in.

  9. - Top - End - #849
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    What I expect to see is Durkon making his save - given how many times heís died, narratively itís lost almost all impact - and then he does something that has a real impact on Redcloak:

    He gives Redcloak another chance.

  10. - Top - End - #850
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Geech View Post
    Your analysis of the dramatic elements surrounding this moment seems really solid to me. Thanks for cutting through the back-and-forth arguments about minutia of whether using implosion is a good idea or whether Minrah would "backfill" Durkon in OOTS.

    I find your suicide analysis a lot less compelling. This is a comic strip in which violence and murder are throw-away jokes, sometimes perpetrated by Redcloak himself. In addition, this is a fantasy world where killing yourself to talk to otherwise unreachable god with an expectation or even a plan that you might be raised from the dead is actually not outrageous. Like the murder and violence depicted in the comic, suicide for that type of purpose is far less dramatic and tragic than its real life counterpart. Finally, I think your specific comparison to 13 Reasons Why really misses the mark, partially for the reasons of drama and tragedy just mentioned and also for reasons you yourself hint at in a later post. This comic has vastly smaller reach or coverage than the show, and couldn't possibly have a similar impact. I don't understand why this one topic would suddenly be Serious Business compared to the rest of what is depicted in this comic, even at times for humor.

    That said, multiple people have mentioned that Rich has strong views about suicide, so maybe that's just his thing.
    That's true: OotS is not clearly not trying to be realistic, and as far as I can tell '13 Reasons Why' wants to be. You definitely have a point about different genres. '13 Reasons Why' is a poor comparison for the reasons you mentioned. In defense of past me, I was looking for media that plausibly had a harmful effect, but this comparison falls flat on its face.

    You could make an argument that the comic portrays violence and murder as trivial (especially earlier in its run) and that this is a bad thing. I won't make that argument, which I guess leaves my position wobbly at best. From this point on, I'm just going to try and explain my feelings.

    There is a distinction between something being a joke and something being portrayed as a valid solution to problems and it does matter who exactly is doing it and why they're doing it. The people doing murders for laughs are evil, explicitly so, and when they murder someone, they're being evil. I like(d) Thog and I like Roy, but a Roy-Thog that murders indiscriminately, but is presented as a hero would not work very well. (Note that Redcloak exploding himself to commune with The Dark One and save the goblins is quite different to Redcloak's massacre of hobgoblins as part of a childish grudge.)

    Disney's 'Lion King' (the good one) promotes the divine right of kings. I don't think this a problem at all; I can't imagine someone watching the 'Lion King' and going, "time to establish a monarchy or else the trees will die." Part of it is the inherent unreality (which it shares with OotS) and part of it is how the divine right of kings is no longer a credible idea. So, while OotS is by no means realistic, "suicide is a solution" is, unfortunately, an idea with some traction. I guess my point is that how grounded media is in reality and how relevant its ideas are both influence the heft of its messages.

    There's no way for Rich to know how much OotS influenced people's opinions on evil races in D&D, but he still clearly considers this theme a worthwhile endeavour. Rich is also unhappy with his treatment of women in the earlier strips, but similarly, it's difficult to say how much that influenced people.
    It's an interesting question as to whether or not the messages of media that clearly do not influence anybody whatsoever matter.

    My own thoughts are that if I wrote some crappy racist fanfic and never showed it to anyone, that's fine. However, if I decide to start sharing it to a handful of people, I suddenly have responsibility as an author to not share toxic ideas, though it still doesn't really matter very much. I also have no way of knowing that my fanfic will remain unpopular, which adds to my responsibility. A more competent and successful author with a larger audience has more responsibility to do a good job and not spew hateful messages and so forth.

    In closing, Rich's depiction of suicide matters a lot less than how something like '13 Reasons Why' depicts suicide, but I still do think it matters. There's a few factors that contribute to why I think it matters more than OotS' portrayal of say, murder, but ultimately it's a subjective call that boils down to how likely I think it is to be harmful. Now that I've written that, I realise that I might just have wasted a few hundred words, but I'm reluctant to delete them after investing time into them.

  11. - Top - End - #851
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Samoja1 View Post
    If the planet inaide the rift is real and not just some kind of mirrage then the whole paradigm shifts, because that means Snarl does not in fact destroy everything and everyone, so sealing it would not be necesarry anymore.
    Thatís what Iíve said before - the quests are focused on Gates. The term Gate implies travel. The Scribblers imho knew there was another world and wanted to explore it.
    'Utķlie'n aurŽ! Aiya EldaliŽ ar AtanatŠri, utķlie'n aurŽ! ďThe day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" And all those who heard his great voice echo in the hills answered, crying:'Auta i lůmŽ!" The night is passing!"

  12. - Top - End - #852
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Even if Durkon fails his saving throw, there is a way to resurrect him quickly. A Scroll of Resurrection. The party has all the resources they need to make a Scroll of Resurrection, and they are allowed to cooperate to create it.

    The prerequisites for a Scroll of Resurrection are:

  13. - Top - End - #853
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I haven't seen mentioned in this thread - although I may have missed a few pages - any importance ascribed to the title of the strip. Lots of people have guessed that Xykon showed up, but none used, "Compromised" as part of the argument as to why.

    So I will guess, largely based on the title of the strip, that someone discovered their meeting. Not Xykon however. I'm going with a bugbear. And Redcloak has seen this and made a strategic decision.

    Implosion has a nifty feature to it. It keeps killing.

    "For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it."

    So first round he chose Durkon. The creature who compromised the meeting has a round to make an action... one that will probably determine if the NEXT round that same spell is targeted on them. Redcloak could even honestly say he didn't cast a spell at an ally... since technically he cast at it Durkon it just kept going and killed one of the bugbears. Oops.

    Does Redcloak care if Durkon lives or dies? I'm going to go with: not really. The secrecy of the meeting is more important...

    We know Rich picks titles on purpose, so I'm going with this as my bet.

  14. - Top - End - #854
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcW View Post
    Even if Durkon fails his saving throw, there is a way to resurrect him quickly. A Scroll of Resurrection. The party has all the resources they need to make a Scroll of Resurrection, and they are allowed to cooperate to create it.

    The prerequisites for a Scroll of Resurrection are:
    A scroll of Resurrection would still need remains, though.

  15. - Top - End - #855
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mjasghar View Post
    Thatís what Iíve said before - the quests are focused on Gates. The term Gate implies travel. The Scribblers imho knew there was another world and wanted to explore it.
    Yeah, that worked out marvellously for Kraagor.

  16. - Top - End - #856
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusion View Post
    We know Rich picks titles on purpose, so I'm going with this as my bet.
    IIRC the title is the very last part of the comic he comes up with, usually right before posting and just goes with the first thing he can think of that fits the strip, and it's the book titles he deliberates over.

    ETA: Found it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Burlew's Twitter
    The title is written at the last second before posting, so usually my first workable idea gets used.
    He was saying that in response to being asked if repeated strip titles were intentional (they are not, and in at least one case he noticed quickly and changed it, according to the rest of that twitter thread (chain?).)
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacky720 View Post
    A scroll of Resurrection would still need remains, though.
    And there is no reason to believe that Implode does not leave remains.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-07 at 09:44 AM.
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  17. - Top - End - #857
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    biggrin Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    <aside> I just wanted to say how thoroughly entertaining it is to watch so many people "strongly committed" to defending the Sunk Cost Fallacy perspective.

  18. - Top - End - #858
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DurkonCobbleson View Post
    <aside> I just wanted to say how thoroughly entertaining it is to watch so many people "strongly committed" to defending the Sunk Cost Fallacy perspective.
    Iím not entirely sure which comments youíre referring to; can you give examples?

    But from my perspective, this failure to come to an agreement belongs to Durkon (and Thor) as much as it does to Redcloak.

    Durkon offered his own personal cooperation to change mortal perceptions of the goblins.
    Perhaps in the real world, the big victories that Redcloak is looking for come from many small gains like Durkon is offering. Maybe you find one person, then two, then four...

    But this isnít the real world, and in OotS world Redcloak believes that what heís looking for can only provided with the direct cooperation of the gods themselves. Until the gods themselves are willing to offer that, I think Redcloak has only terrible options to choose from.

    Until Thor and Durkon can give him a better choice, what he did makes sense.

  19. - Top - End - #859
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DurkonCobbleson View Post
    <aside> I just wanted to say how thoroughly entertaining it is to watch so many people "strongly committed" to defending the Sunk Cost Fallacy perspective.
    Same here.

    Many posters keep calling RC a walking Sunk Cost Fallacy.

    I don't believe that is the case though.
    The past couple strips have basically confirmed RC's actions are what have brought about this option for negotiation [The realization of my plan makes gods tremble?].
    Some gods and Durkon are finally listening to RC and willing to work to right things.

    RC is smart enough to realize all this, but he still turns down the offer.

    It could simply be a matter of trust, but I believe it to be some other factor.
    Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2020-08-07 at 09:57 AM.
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  20. - Top - End - #860
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DurkonCobbleson View Post
    <aside> I just wanted to say how thoroughly entertaining it is to watch so many people "strongly committed" to defending the Sunk Cost Fallacy perspective.
    It comes from SOD where it is basically what he is accused of, by someone close to him, twice or more times.

    But I agree that speaking about sunk cost fallacy when he has just had a proof that -to some extent- his investment worked (he got quite the offer: peace and keeping a fertile nation for his own people, all of this because of the plan) doesn't seem correct.

  21. - Top - End - #861
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Iím curious if Red Cloak doing this because he realizes Durkon might not actually be there (either gas or image) or he just wants to kill him.
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  22. - Top - End - #862
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Griffin View Post
    Iím curious if Red Cloak doing this because he realizes Durkon might not actually be there (either gas or image) or he just wants to kill him.
    Pretty sure gasform/illusions can't cast spells, and in any case Redcloak could've just checked with True Seeing.

  23. - Top - End - #863
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Khaldun View Post
    What I expect to see is Durkon making his save - given how many times heís died, narratively itís lost almost all impact - and then he does something that has a real impact on Redcloak:

    He gives Redcloak another chance.
    This would be a rather powerful scene, but I'm not sure what else Durkon could offer to sweeten the deal. Redcloak likely has some other save or dies to toss around, too, assuming Rich just doesn't just ignore the line in Implosion about not being able to target the same creature with it multiple times.

    I do think Durkon will give Redcloak another chance, just not right now.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2020-08-07 at 11:09 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #864
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Pretty sure gasform/illusions can't cast spells, and in any case Redcloak could've just checked with True Seeing.
    Or Create Water. Why bother with non-0th-level spells, after all?
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  25. - Top - End - #865
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by RatElemental View Post
    This would be a rather powerful scene, but I'm not sure what else Durkon could offer to sweeten the deal. Redcloak likely has some other save or dies to toss around, too, assuming Rich just doesn't just ignore the line in Implosion about not being able to target the same creature with it multiple times.

    I do think Durkon will give Redcloak another chance, just not right now.
    I want this to be the case so badly.
    Maybe a test RC could be giving to see if Durkon is willing to not repeat the cycle of violence even when the violence is directed against him?

    Can RC lower the save DC of Implosion to make it more likely Durkon will make the save?

    That would be quite the test of Durkon's resolve in solving this peacefully.

    Durkon: Io, whadda try that for?
    RC: ... going to strike back at me now for attacking you?
    Durkon: I told ye! I wah peace!
    Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2020-08-07 at 11:43 AM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Unless... the entire OOtS are all replaced by evil clerics! Leaky Windstaff, Hilgya, Malack, Tsukiko, the Orc Shaman of Giggles, and Redcloak all team up to solve mysteries...

    Maybe they can drive around in a van with greyview or something
    That would be kind of cool, but particularly if Greyview leans his head out of the window of the car as they are driving along with his tongue hanging out ...
    Quote Originally Posted by mashlagoo1982 View Post
    RC is smart enough to realize all this, but he still turns down the offer.

    It could simply be a matter of trust, but I believe it to be some other factor.
    He wants a better offer. When one is negotiating at a bargaining table, one is not required to accept the first offer that comes across the table from the other side.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-07 at 11:42 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #867
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    He wants a better offer. When one is negotiating at a bargaining table, one is not required to accept the first offer that comes across the table from the other side.
    There are more effective ways to try and get a better offer.
    If there was something specific RC wanted, he could just make a counter offer.
    Durkon has been doing well enough during this negotiation to prove RC can converse with him.
    Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2020-08-07 at 12:00 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mashlagoo1982 View Post
    There are more effective ways to try and get a better offer.
    And? Sometimes a strike happens. It does not always have the outcome the strikers intended ...
    If there was something specific RC wanted, he could just make a counter offer. Durkon has been doing well enough during this negotiation to prove RC can converse with him.
    RC has been conversing with him. As a number of other posts and posters have noted, what Durkon has brought to the table so far isn't much to work with. RC's current move, if he is indeed trying to literally shoot the messenger, is to send the message "raise your game if you are serious about negotiation and making a deal."
    That message is not for Durkon. The message is for the god, Thor, and the other gods (who may not back Thor's play) {see RC's remarks in Strip 1209 panel 8} whose first messenger to TDO/RC finally showed up. {See panels 9 and 10 of strip 1205}.

    Also, since when are "most effective" methods required in OoTS?
    Heck, the Order itself isn't optimized ...
    Blundering through is a whole thing in OoTS.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-07 at 12:12 PM.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I wouldn't say Thor and Durkon trying to reach a deal with RC is a result of The Plan. It's more due to TDO's unique color, which can make a more permanent gate (I understand that the current gates would have eventually failed even without outside interference since they're also made of 3 colors).

    From what I get from Thor's exposition last book it's something he noticed shortly after the falling out with TDO which may or may not be prior to The Plan being conceived, but it's not something they just realized.

    What prompted was that Durkon seems to be the first Cleric that knows about the gates that could/would be willing to come back and parlay with TDO's high priest.

    It seems that The Plan itself is just pushing the other gods to scrap the whole world before they can get the last gate.


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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Mage View Post
    I wouldn't say Thor and Durkon trying to reach a deal with RC is a result of The Plan. It's more due to TDO's unique color, which can make a more permanent gate (I understand that the current gates would have eventually failed even without outside interference since they're also made of 3 colors).

    From what I get from Thor's exposition last book it's something he noticed shortly after the falling out with TDO which may or may not be prior to The Plan being conceived, but it's not something they just realized.

    What prompted was that Durkon seems to be the first Cleric that knows about the gates that could/would be willing to come back and parlay with TDO's high priest.

    It seems that The Plan itself is just pushing the other gods to scrap the whole world before they can get the last gate.
    Durkon wouldn't have found out about the Gates were it not for Roy, who took him along into Dorukan's dungeon, which he would not have done if Xykon weren't there, which would not have been the case if he wasn't Redcloak's arcane caster needed for performing the Ritual. Durkon knows about the Gates because of the Plan, albeit indirectly.
    Also, what made striking a deal with Big Purple so urgent for Thor and his allies is Redcloak's success in locating Gates to be used according to the Plan (because half of the Gates were destroyed to keep him from seizing them, and he had something to do with the destruction of the rest as well).

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