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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Mage View Post
    While true, by this same logic it could be said that this Odin is responsible, since without his prophecy Durkon would have never left the Dwarven lands. Or Malack, since without him Durkon would have never died and so would not have the knowledge necessary. Or if TDO hadn't left the God's group chat. There are so many moving parts involved that saying that The Plan worked (especially in RC's mind) isn't accurate, IMO.
    Wll, Malack killed Durkon because the Order and the Guild/Empire were fighting each other for the control of the Gate which the Order (let alone the Guild and especially the Empire) shouldn't have gotten involved in if Redcloak and Xykon hadn't been going around chasing Gates to capture them. As for Odin, if Thor is to be believed he just foresawthat someone they will potentially be able to talk to will have to know about the Gates so that he can talk to this other guy chasing them, so there's that.
    There are many moving parts, but most of them are interconnected.


    Yes. If not for The Plan the Gods would not have some of the reasons for pulling the plug on the world. I don't see how this is supposed to be a positive result of The Plan or that it's working as intended, as it's proof that it was kind of doomed from the start.
    Maybe because the good guys and their allies among the bunch would still be sitting on their thumbs lamenting just how bad it is that the purple guy dropped out of their group chat? It forced them inton motion.

  2. - Top - End - #902
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
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    the gods didn't bat an eye when paladins slaughtered goblin children.
    [citation needed]
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  3. - Top - End - #903
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [citation needed]
    True, but it would have been nice if they’d given more of a crap, wouldn’t it? I don’t entirely blame the gods for growing somewhat resigned and numb after all these... aeons, honestly... but the fact that the most concern we’ve actually seen from a non-mortal (who wasn’t TDO) was a celestial who simply refused to slaughter them or be directly complicit in it... doesn’t do them much of a favor, does it?
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  4. - Top - End - #904
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    True, but it would have been nice if they’d given more of a crap, wouldn’t it? I don’t entirely blame the gods for growing somewhat resigned and numb after all these... aeons, honestly... but the fact that the most concern we’ve actually seen from a non-mortal (who wasn’t TDO) was a celestial who simply refused to slaughter them or be directly complicit in it... doesn’t do them much of a favor, does it?
    Thing is, we just don't know how much of that they gave, because
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    everything that happened is not necessarily seen.

    (…) It is possible that some of the paladins who participated in the attack crossed the line. It is also possible that most did not. (…) [W]e don't see how many Detect Evils were used before the attack started, and we don't see how many paladins afterwards try to heal their wounds and can't, because these things are not important to Redcloak's story. (…) (Oh, and I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't.)

  5. - Top - End - #905
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    True, but it would have been nice if they’d given more of a crap, wouldn’t it? I don’t entirely blame the gods for growing somewhat resigned and numb after all these... aeons, honestly... but the fact that the most concern we’ve actually seen from a non-mortal (who wasn’t TDO) was a celestial who simply refused to slaughter them or be directly complicit in it... doesn’t do them much of a favor, does it?
    Given that we agree that killing innocents is wrong, and the gods created the world so that all of its members are mortal, invented disease, famine, and monsters and are responsible for the majority of deaths...

    The gods in OotS and D&D in general are little better than the Machines from the Matrix. The best of them are good because they care about people, all of them are evil.
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  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    True, but it would have been nice if they’d given more of a crap, wouldn’t it? I don’t entirely blame the gods for growing somewhat resigned and numb after all these... aeons, honestly... but the fact that the most concern we’ve actually seen from a non-mortal (who wasn’t TDO) was a celestial who simply refused to slaughter them or be directly complicit in it... doesn’t do them much of a favor, does it?
    Oh, I wholly agree there. Though I also agree with Metastachydium. I'm a complex person.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-08 at 09:51 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #907
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Honestly I dunno how much Falling has to do with direct revoking and how much it has to do with the fact that being doing an Evil act breaks your oath is literally hardwired into the class. There’s probably at least some of the former considering Miko, but...
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  8. - Top - End - #908
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    There was not. The MM, like the SRD's monster listings, goes directly from "howler" to "hydra".
    And no "men" entry? Also, for NPCs, were they not classified as "any humanoid" or is this something that 5e did that 3.5 didn't? Hmm, taking a look through the SRD, WoTC did a lot of changing there to get to 5e.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-08-08 at 10:11 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #909
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    And no "men" entry? Also, for NPCs, were they not classified as "any humanoid" or is this something that 5e did that 3.5 didn't?
    To be fair, 3.5 races... differ more between each one. And also because 3.5e in general has more variety in the first place.
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  10. - Top - End - #910
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Maybe the gods should toughen their paladin hiring standards?

    The highest punishment they gave to a paladin is making them Fall, revoking their powers -- but they can still walk around, communicate with other people, adventure, etc. They're still alive and able to do these things, which Redcloak's family is never able to do so again. The Giant's "cop turns in their badge at the city hall" metaphor comes into mind.

  11. - Top - End - #911
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    ...Does the Atonement spell become relevant for this? I don’t think it’d work for Falling unless true, well, atonement is done, and even if it didn’t then it likely wouldn’t last... but it’s still less final.
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  12. - Top - End - #912
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Maybe the gods should toughen their paladin hiring standards?

    The highest punishment they gave to a paladin is making them Fall, revoking their powers -- but they can still walk around, communicate with other people, adventure, etc. They're still alive and able to do these things, which Redcloak's family is never able to do so again. The Giant's "cop turns in their badge at the city hall" metaphor comes into mind.
    That's an understatOkay, okay, sorry.

    Also, true: the paladins, who are acting in the name of the gods, got to slaughter an entire village. Even if they lost their powers (which I doubt), the punishment for slaughtering families isn't getting fired from your job.

    And I should know, I'm a freelance translator.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2020-08-08 at 11:31 AM.
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    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

  13. - Top - End - #913
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm not really sure what you guys expect the gods to do, other than revoking paladin/cleric powers from worshippers who transgress. It's pretty well established that gods almost never directly intervene, because there's too many gods with too many alignments and agendas for anything to get done that way (and it would probably create a new Snarl, but that's besides the point).

    If the gods were as active as you guys want them to be, then Tiamat would have nuked V right after the Familicide (or even as early as p186), Thrym would have dropped a boulder on the Mechane the moment it flew over frost giant territory, Nergal would have zapped Nale when he turned on Malack, and so on, and so on, and so on.

    Karma comes in the afterlife, not in the here and now.

  14. - Top - End - #914
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Maybe the gods should toughen their paladin hiring standards?

    The highest punishment they gave to a paladin is making them Fall, revoking their powers -- but they can still walk around, communicate with other people, adventure, etc. They're still alive and able to do these things, which Redcloak's family is never able to do so again. The Giant's "cop turns in their badge at the city hall" metaphor comes into mind.
    I highly doubt even the unfallen ones would have made it into the Seven Heavens, given what we saw during Roy's interview. But that's just headcanon. Also not much help to everyone else on the material plane, but not much they can do about that, barring Clerical work.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-08 at 12:35 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #915
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    If Redcloak acknowledged someone as his personal rival, would that person instantly level up as cleric ("ding! ding! ding!") to match him?
    Last edited by bunsen_h; 2020-08-08 at 01:13 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #916
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I highly doubt even the unfallen ones would have made it into the Seven Heavens, given what we saw during Roy's interview. But that's just headcanon. Also not much help to everyone else on the material plane, but not much they can do about that, barring Clerical work.
    As headcanons go, this is a really good one. We should, nonetheless bear in mind that Eugene (an arrogant, condescending, less than helpful jerk who neglected his family (at best – the ways in which he seems to have expressed his disapproval of Roy's life choices arguably borders on abuse) and duties) would have been allowed to enter Celestia, were it not for the Blood Oath.

  17. - Top - End - #917
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    If Redcloak acknowledged someone as his personal rival, would that person instantly level up as cleric ("ding! ding! ding!") to match him?
    Only if that person was an NPC.

  18. - Top - End - #918
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I highly doubt even the unfallen ones would have made it into the Seven Heavens, given what we saw during Roy's interview. But that's just headcanon. Also not much help to everyone else on the material plane, but not much they can do about that, barring Clerical work.
    I dunno -- they might just end up to where Eugene was.

    I thought there were only three planes of Good?

    As for effects on the material plane...if they're allowed to keep their powers, maybe they should have used it for reparations or such.

  19. - Top - End - #919
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I highly doubt even the unfallen ones would have made it into the Seven Heavens, given what we saw during Roy's interview. But that's just headcanon. Also not much help to everyone else on the material plane, but not much they can do about that, barring Clerical work.
    I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    ...Does the Atonement spell become relevant for this? I don’t think it’d work for Falling unless true, well, atonement is done, and even if it didn’t then it likely wouldn’t last... but it’s still less final.
    Restoring lost paladin (and cleric and druid etc.) powers is basically the entire point of the atonement spell. It also lets you change another creature's alignment, but only if they want to and that's kind of dumb when changing alignment should be something that follows naturally from wanting to in the first place. It doesn't work unless the subject is truly repentant, or if they were forced to commit the acts that caused them to fall via compulsion magic, though. It also works to restore someone's alignment to what it was before if it got changed by some kind of magic (the only way to do that is the helm of opposite alignment, iirc)
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2020-08-08 at 02:23 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #921
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    As headcanons go, this is a really good one. We should, nonetheless bear in mind that Eugene (an arrogant, condescending, less than helpful jerk who neglected his family (at best – the ways in which he seems to have expressed his disapproval of Roy's life choices arguably borders on abuse) and duties) would have been allowed to enter Celestia, were it not for the Blood Oath.
    Eh, we have yet to see Eugene get in, so I'm not so certain. Even then, though, he never intentionally killed people with wanton disregard over whether they deserved it.
    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    I dunno -- they might just end up to where Eugene was.

    I thought there were only three planes of Good?

    As for effects on the material plane...if they're allowed to keep their powers, maybe they should have used it for reparations or such.
    Eugene is in a holding pattern.

    Also,there are 17 planes for 9 alignments. There's definitely some wiggle room regardless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.
    Would I not? If every person in HtPGHS or SOD was human, I can assure you I sound still be beating this exact same drum concerning the paladins.
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  22. - Top - End - #922
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Eh, we have yet to see Eugene get in, so I'm not so certain.
    Well,
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    in the epilogue of SoD we see the final assessment the bureaucratic deva gives on his chances, and he'd let Eugene in were the Blood Oath cleared. Let's hope they'll reconsider.


    Even then, though, he never intentionally killed people with wanton disregard over whether they deserved it.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.
    Not even trying to prevent their colleauges from slaughtering non-combatants (including children) is pretty much the same thing. (Also, for the umpteenth time, no Bearer ever had destroying the world as his/her primary mission.)
    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-08 at 02:38 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    It should be noted that fallen and unfallen but overzealous paladins would be right at home in Arcadia, the border plane between the lawful good and lawful neutral afterlives. The residents got so overzealous about mercilessly upholding the law that a whole layer of the plane just fell right down into lawful neutral and was destroyed, once.
    Last edited by RatElemental; 2020-08-08 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.
    If they were human cultists, they wouldn't have been created by the gods to be murdered by humans and downtrodden on purpose. If they were human cultists, their families wouldn't have anything to fear from "adventurers". Heck, if they were human cultists, there'd actually have been a chance that they'd be arrested and tried, not slaughtered, along with their children, for crying out loud! And if the entire world hadn't been built in a way that specifically harms them, and grievously, they'd not need to twist the arm of the gods.

    That's the point. Their situation has to change.
    Last edited by The_Weirdo; 2020-08-08 at 02:54 PM.
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    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
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    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Larsaan View Post
    I don't see why the unfallen ones wouldn't have been allowed in. So long as they didn't harm civilians or children, there's nothing Evil about hunting someone who's scheming to destroy the world. If they were human cultists you wouldn't even blink.
    ...

    If a paladin stood by and watched it happen, had the power to stop it or dissuade it and didn't bother to try, had no guilt of assisting cutting down combatants trying to protect the non-combatants, and offered no reparation or even an apology for survivors that knew absolutely nothing about the Mantle, then yeah, it's evil full stop.

    It might not be Evil on the cosmological scale, which means something's probably wrong about the way moralities are measured in the OOTSverse.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    It might not be Evil on the cosmological scale, which means something's probably wrong about the way moralities are measured in the OOTSverse.
    At the end of the day, the Sapphire Guard destroyed Azure City.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    If they were human cultists, they wouldn't have been created by the gods to be murdered by humans and downtrodden on purpose. If they were human cultists, their families wouldn't have anything to fear from "adventurers". Heck, if they were human cultists, there'd actually have been a chance that they'd be arrested and tried, not slaughtered, along with their children, for crying out loud! And if the entire world hadn't been built in a way that specifically harms them, and grievously, they'd not need to twist the arm of the gods.

    That's the point. Their situation has to change.
    Except, as I noted above, everyone is made for that purpose. The world of the OotS is literally a farm for sentient cattle; they milk faith from them while alive then eat their souls when they die. The Goblins are worse off by a little, but every single individual should be rebelling.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Except, as I noted above, everyone is made for that purpose. The world of the OotS is literally a farm for sentient cattle; they milk faith from them while alive then eat their souls when they die. The Goblins are worse off by a little, but every single individual should be rebelling.
    By that logic, it's wrong of the Paladins to prevent anyone from doing so. And they all should point the snarl at the gods.
    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Oh Lord, somebody said "The_Weirdo" three times into a mirror again, didn't they?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Weirdo... I'm not sure you're entirely clear on how an 'alliance' works.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    By that logic, it's wrong of the Paladins to prevent anyone from doing so. And they all should point the snarl at the gods.
    The former I don't know about, but the latter is true. Given Durkon's information from Thor I would certainly be on team "let's get racial representatives together and collectively threaten the Gods."

    Even Thor was more apologetic about the death of planets then the fact that they continually reset a cycle of misery to feed off of it. There is no "hey sorry we deliberately invented death and suffering to make you more nutritious for us" it is more "Sorry we have to close up shop and try again so often."
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  30. - Top - End - #930
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGirl

    Join Date
    Jan 2019
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    Female

    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Weirdo View Post
    At the end of the day, the Sapphire Guard destroyed Azure City.
    I disagree there, but I'll say that I don't know why people blame Redcloak for the fall of Azure City but then insist it was the Bearer's fault that his village ended up massacred.

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