OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

I think it's a blessing in disguise. Durkon is totally getting blown to pieces- this whole long scene was his goodbye. He's a static character and we're going into the endgame. People like Redcloak have to realize their situation and rise up to do what Durkon couldn't and change their point of view.

[...]

Durkon, for the narrative, has to leave for the others to grow into their own. IMO.

Did you miss the entire book dedicated to Durkon’s character growth or...?

[B. Dandelion]

For Durkon versus Redcloak...before this comic, I thought Durkon had a decent fighting/escape chance, since Redcloak himself earlier had said he was drained from the dungeon crawling.

If his definition of "drained" meant he still had 9th-level spells, it's pretty much close to zero that Durkon can escape on his own.

I'm thinking back to #480 when Redcloak said he didn't have many spells left and then OHKO'd Hinjo with a surprise 7th-level. The main battle was over then, and I think he really was running low, just like most of the other casters were at that point in the day. Redcloak is the type to always keep one last heavy-hitter attack spell in reserve even when it looks like most of the fighting is over, just in case an unexpectedly powerful enemy tries to ambush him.

It wouldn't seem odd to me if it were similar here. He could have been drained of most high-level spells except for that emergency Implosion.

[danielxcutter]

I'm thinking back to #480 when Redcloak said he didn't have many spells left and then OHKO'd Hinjo with a surprise 7th-level. The main battle was over then, and I think he really was running low, just like most of the other casters were at that point in the day. Redcloak is the type to always keep one last heavy-hitter attack spell in reserve even when it looks like most of the fighting is over, just in case an unexpectedly powerful enemy tries to ambush him.

It wouldn't seem odd to me if it were similar here. He could have been drained of most high-level spells except for that emergency Implosion.

I mean... a lot of monsters - especially high level monsters - tend to have rather high Fort saves, so it’s not too farfetched that he’d have at least one unused Implosion left. Especially if it’s his domain slot.

[Metastachydium]

Wrt the debate raging over "Should Durkon be kicked out of the party", two things come to mind:

• The much-more immediate question: Will they ever see him again, or know what he did?

Yes, they definitely will know what happened, unless Minrah is about to get very, very stupid.
Also, I'm pretty confident they will see him again, after a fashion. Provided Implosion leaves something behind, Minrah will be in a position to deliver his sad remains back to the rest of the bunch.

Belkar could do far less and potentially be kicked out, and would be deserved, because he has significantly less leeway. That does not mean he would have less mercy.

The fact that Belkar could barely walk at that point probably also helped.

[KorvinStarmast]

In tactical terms, they've lost the element of surprise , which is a critical resource when fighting an enemy who is many levels above you.

As Roy cautioned him on the boat. But I don't get your "throw him out of the order" line. If Roy wasn't going to throw Elan out of the Order for hitting the self destruct button on the first gate, he's not going to toss Durkon - his best friend - for this. If Roy wasn't going to toss V out for familicide, he's not going to toss his best friend out for this. Yeah, he'll be angry, but he's had to deal with his imperfect team before.

For example, I can't imagine Durkon or Roy sneak attacking an unarmed person in the shower and then killing them in cold blood, no matter how deserved it was and no matter how much of a threat they posed.

Nemesis who had already broken the truce. I note that you have since "qualified" your position in re Durkon being kicked out, but to even initiate that line of inquiry was, in my view, a basic error. YMMV.

Elan isn't the sharpest crayon in the box, but he's considerably brighter than 3 INT. He's improved a lot since the early days.

In his own words ...
I got a 4!

[danielxcutter]

As Roy cautioned him on the boat. But I don't get your "throw him out of the order" line. If Roy wasn't going to throw Elan out of the Order for hitting the self destruct button on the first gate, he's not going to toss Durkon - his best friend - for this. If Roy wasn't going to toss V out for familicide, he's not going to toss his best friend out for this. Yeah, he'll be angry, but he's had to deal with his imperfect team before.
Nemesis who had already broken the truce. I note that you have since "qualified" your position in re Durkon being kicked out, but to even initiate that line of inquiry was, in my view, a basic error. YMMV.
In his own words ...
I got a 4!

I am of the personal opinion that Elan’s Int is at least a bit higher than that; he’s smarter than Thog and Thog in turn is probably a bit smarter than those ogres. At the absolute lowest I’d pin him at 6~7.

[Riftwolf]

Don't know if this was discussed upthread, but what contingencies could Durkon have prepared for this eventuality? Would Plane Shift be enough to escape if he makes his first save? Admittedly it's not the best choice, but 'land on a random place in another plane of existence' beats 'remain in target range of a high level cleric'. When escaping, 'running to' is less important than 'running from'.

[pendell]

Don't know if this was discussed upthread, but what contingencies could Durkon have prepared for this eventuality? Would Plane Shift be enough to escape if he makes his first save? Admittedly it's not the best choice, but 'land on a random place in another plane of existence' beats 'remain in target range of a high level cleric'. When escaping, 'running to' is less important than 'running from'.

If he got help from Vaarsuvius , he could have asked V to cast contingency . If Durkon or Minrah have the spell on their list, the logical get-out-of-trouble card at this point is Contingency + word of recall. Where contingency would be "Once taken below X% or incapacitated, teleport to home base".

If he doesn't have word of recall, I would try to go for contingency+Plane shift. He doesn't have teleport, wind walk will take 5 rounds he doesn't have. So if I were Durkon I'd use plane shift to retreat to Celestia and return to the party tomorrow, bearing word of the bad news. That will take Durkon out of the action for 24 hours -- which could mean anywhere from 1 to hundreds of strips.

If he doesn't have contingency set, if it were me, if I made the saving throw my very next action would be word of recall or plane shift. I can't think of anything else a cleric can cast in one round that will get him away fast enough.

If he fails his saving throw, there is absolutely no doubt that Redcloak will disintegrate the corpse, removing Durkon from the prime material plane for the duration of the story. I don't think there's anything Minrah can do in one round to prevent this.

The other possibility, which I doubt will happen, is the MiTD saving Durkon's life. I strongly doubt this will happen, though. We've already had Monster Ex Machina once, when he saved O-chul and Vaarsuvius from Xykon. I don't think the Giant will do that again, at least not so soon. Besides, the Giant is big on actions having consequences. Durkon isn't going to walk away from this little misadventure scot-free, even if he lives through it.

Roy won't throw him out, but he WILL give Durkon an earful. If Durkon has an ear left, of course.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[mjasghar]

Since Durkon is a cleric of Thor plane shift to Valhalla makes more sense
But plane shift doesn’t see much use (the whole ranch dressing not withstanding)

[Metastachydium]

If he fails his saving throw, there is absolutely no doubt that Redcloak will disintegrate the corpse, removing Durkon from the prime material plane for the duration of the story. I don't think there's anything Minrah can do in one round to prevent this.

I'd be more careful about that absolutely of yours. Even if Redcloak does not intend to pocket the remains for later use (of some sort (as a number of posters suggested before)), I'm not quite certain his first priority will be obliterating the body of an already defeated enemy with a relatively high-end offensive spell, especially since he has reason to suspect that an entire high level party might be lurking around somewhere in his close proximity, and since Durkon was the team cleric, they likely won't be able to resurrect him anyway, regardless whether he disposes of the ”body” or not.
Further, if he has no such worries (which, frankly, would surprise me), he is in no hurry, either. Destroying the ”body” doesn't have to be his first action once Durkon's collapsed on himself, in which case Minrah would have a fair chance of retrieving it.

[Peelee]

If he fails his saving throw, there is absolutely no doubt that Redcloak will disintegrate the corpse, removing Durkon from the prime material plane for the duration of the story.

Spoiler: Me right now

Show

[understatement]

Couldn't Redcloak lock him down with Dimensional Anchor?

I'd be more careful about that absolutely of yours. Even if Redcloak does not intend to pocket the remains for later use (of some sort (as a number of posters suggested before)), I'm not quite certain his first priority will be obliterating the body of an already defeated enemy with a relatively high-end offensive spell, especially since he has reason to suspect that an entire high level party might be lurking around somewhere in his close proximity, and since Durkon was the team cleric, they likely won't be able to resurrect him anyway, regardless whether he disposes of the ”body” or not.
Further, if he has no such worries (which, frankly, would surprise me), he is in no hurry, either. Destroying the ”body” doesn't have to be his first action once Durkon's collapsed on himself, in which case Minrah would have a fair chance of retrieving it.

Minrah has to get into range to retrieve Durkon's body, and RC can use Implosion to target up to 4 people.

In fact, knowing that there's an adventuring party around means that Redcloak will probably wait besides Durkon's remains and kill whoever tries to retrieve it.

[Fyraltari]

Guys, the worst that will happen to Durkon over this is having to bear Belkar’s taunting about being a bad teammate.

[Peelee]

Minrah has to get into range to retrieve Durkon's body, and RC can use Implosion to target up to 4 people.

In fact, knowing that there's an adventuring party around means that Redcloak will probably wait besides Durkon's remains and kill whoever tries to retrieve it.

If they come in the next 20 seconds, sure. Though I doubt he would, I still believe he's killing Durkon not out of simple rejection.

[pendell]

I will amend "absolutely" to "very little doubt", at least in my mind. In the case of Tsukiko and the craftsgoblin who made the duplicate phylactery, Redcloak has demonstrated a willingness to use whatever power is necessary to eliminate threats to the Plan permanently, beyond the reach of resurrection. "Threats" includes allies who know too much, as well as enemies.

The Redcloak we saw crush the Azure City resistance is a goblin who is flat done taking chances. He doesn't respond to taunts, and he doesn't take stupid risks (remember the Paladin he caught in the fist of his elemental). All he does is take the shortest, most efficient path to realize his goals. Which remain the accomplishment of the Dark One's plan.

So yes. If Durkon leaves resurrectable remains behind, I firmly expect Redcloak to eliminate them in the very next round. I don't know what part Minrah can play, but I would say that rushing in to rescue the corpse means facing a cleric still in almost full possession of his daily spell slots and with allies very close by. The balance of probability is that a Minrah rescue would simply get her killed as well.

I suspect that Durkon didn't go into this blindly stupid; he DOES have a high wisdom score after all, and he's a seasoned adventurer. I'd expect Word of Recall or similar to be prepped in case negotiation goes sour. But he wasn't counting on implosion, which isn't a death effect but still kills in one round.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[KorvinStarmast]

... Elan’s Int ... At the absolute lowest I’d pin him at 6~7.

OK, since I was making a joke I am good with that level of dump stat being a decent guess.

If he doesn't have word of recall, I would try to go for contingency+Plane shift.

From the cold north pole to cool ranch dressing plane. Go for the silly!

Roy won't throw him out, but he WILL give Durkon an earful. If Durkon has an ear left, of course.

No doubt.

Since Durkon is a cleric of Thor plane shift to Valhalla makes more sense

And he's seen it ...

Spoiler: Me right now

Show

Nice hat.

I will amend "absolutely" to "very little doubt", at least in my mind. {snip} The Redcloak we saw crush the Azure City resistance is a goblin who is flat done taking chances.

Yep. And his whole "I am not messing around" line was nested with his first use of implosion on the Elven Resistance. So one might infer that his use of Implosion here is likewise "I am done/not messing around" as a stance.

[Ruck]

The fact that Belkar could barely walk at that point probably also helped.

Indeed, IIRC Haley says something to the effect of "I don't think you're in any position to force me to take you with me."

[Metastachydium]

I will amend "absolutely" to "very little doubt", at least in my mind. In the case of Tsukiko and the craftsgoblin who made the duplicate phylactery, Redcloak has demonstrated a willingness to use whatever power is necessary to eliminate threats to the Plan permanently, beyond the reach of resurrection. "Threats" includes allies who know too much, as well as enemies.

The Redcloak we saw crush the Azure City resistance is a goblin who is flat done taking chances. He doesn't respond to taunts, and he doesn't take stupid risks (remember the Paladin he caught in the fist of his elemental). All he does is take the shortest, most efficient path to realize his goals. Which remain the accomplishment of the Dark One's plan.

So yes. If Durkon leaves resurrectable remains behind, I firmly expect Redcloak to eliminate them in the very next round. I don't know what part Minrah can play, but I would say that rushing in to rescue the corpse means facing a cleric still in almost full possession of his daily spell slots and with allies very close by. The balance of probability is that a Minrah rescue would simply get her killed as well.

I suspect that Durkon didn't go into this blindly stupid; he DOES have a high wisdom score after all, and he's a seasoned adventurer. I'd expect Word of Recall or similar to be prepped in case negotiation goes sour. But he wasn't counting on implosion, which isn't a death effect but still kills in one round.

Those (i.e. the fate of the craftsman and Tsukiko) are not really good analogies, if you ask me. He did not expect to fight roughly half a dozen high-level adventurers soon afterwards, and thus he had all the 7th level spell slots nedded for the task to spare. Unloading your gun into a dead body when the dead body's living buddies should be somewhere close is not how I'd define efficiency.

In fact, knowing that there's an adventuring party around means that Redcloak will probably wait besides Durkon's remains and kill whoever tries to retrieve it.

Sounds more like him.

Minrah has to get into range to retrieve Durkon's body, and RC can use Implosion to target up to 4 people.

True. I set out form the assumption that she would be in gaseous for, which works fine against Implosion, but manipulating objects (such as Durkon's remains) or casting spells to manipulate objects… Well, neither mixes well with gaseous form.

(Hm. On second thought, is Bugsby's Improved Dead-Dwarf-Retrieving Hand a thing?)

[understatement]

(Hm. On second thought, is Bugsby's Improved Dead-Dwarf-Retrieving Hand a thing?)

Disintegrate (which is a specialty of Redcloak's).

Wow, now I really want to see V and Redcloak fight.

[RatElemental]

If he got help from Vaarsuvius , he could have asked V to cast contingency . If Durkon or Minrah have the spell on their list, the logical get-out-of-trouble card at this point is Contingency + word of recall. Where contingency would be "Once taken below X% or incapacitated, teleport to home base".

That's a pretty bad triggering condition in this case. Implosion is all or nothing, and so is slay living, destruction, etc. If I were going up against a cleric multiple levels higher than me with a penchant for save or die spells, I'd set my contingency to go off after the first time I was the target of a spell cast by someone other than myself.

If he doesn't have word of recall, I would try to go for contingency+Plane shift. He doesn't have teleport, wind walk will take 5 rounds he doesn't have. So if I were Durkon I'd use plane shift to retreat to Celestia and return to the party tomorrow, bearing word of the bad news. That will take Durkon out of the action for 24 hours -- which could mean anywhere from 1 to hundreds of strips.

Unless he prepared 2. Plane Shifting back before his wind walk wears off is the perfect opportunity to make his way back expediently.

[Metastachydium]

(Hm. On second thought, is Bugsby's Improved Dead-Dwarf-Retrieving Hand a thing?)

(Important update: it absolutely does exist!)

[LadyEowyn]

Unloading your gun into a dead body when the dead body's living buddies should be somewhere close is not how I'd define efficiency.

In the real world, yes. In a world where dead bodies commonly return to life, to the point where the afterlife has a revolving door, destroying the body is the equivalent of making sure that a disabled or injured opponent is really dead.

If Redcloak succeeds in killing Durkon, and really does want him permanently dead, he’ll make sure of it.

But I still suspect there’s something more going on here (i.e., that either Durkon will survive or that Redcloak’s motivations are more complex than they seem).

[RatElemental]

It does take 10 full minutes to revive a corpse (barring the revivify or clone spells), so standing by to kill anyone who tries to retrieve the corpse then dusting it if they manage to get close does make sense.

[understatement]

Wait, then why not dust the corpse first, put it in a little pouch, and then wait for the adventurers to come? Less likely that someone could get a piece of it, and easier to keep track of.

[CriticalFailure]

> Replies: 1,015

wow

[RatElemental]

Wait, then why not dust the corpse first, put it in a little pouch, and then wait for the adventurers to come? Less likely that someone could get a piece of it, and easier to keep track of.

You can use it as bait, and a distraction, and even as a hostage. And it's a bit easier to keep track of someone cutting a pinky off than keeping track of where all the dust is.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Easier to use Animate Dead. Uses a lower level slot, you get a minion, and it also prevents somebody from coming back easily.

[understatement]

You can use it as bait, and a distraction, and even as a hostage. And it's a bit easier to keep track of someone cutting a pinky off than keeping track of where all the dust is.

Technically, it'd also be harder for the party to keep track of the dust.

Easier to use Animate Dead. Uses a lower level slot, you get a minion, and it also prevents somebody from coming back easily.

Implosion looks like the opposite of leaving an "intact corpse" behind.

> Replies: 1,015

wow

I cannot wait to see how big the thread will get on the final strip.

[dancrilis]

Easier to use Animate Dead. Uses a lower level slot, you get a minion, and it also prevents somebody from coming back easily.

If he is going down that route he should likely use some version of Create Undead (perhaps Redcloak's custom Death Knight creation spell) to get a potentially useful minion, with the added bonus for the narrative of the Order having to come to terms with there friend being brought back as an undead monster and wondering if they can still trust him.

[B. Dandelion]

I mean... a lot of monsters - especially high level monsters - tend to have rather high Fort saves, so it’s not too farfetched that he’d have at least one unused Implosion left. Especially if it’s his domain slot.

I don't quite know where this would fit in with what I was trying to say, but since I left the actual point of the argument I was trying to make unsaid, the communication failure is on my end.

To try again: it wouldn't surprise me if Redcloak is actually very low on spell slots above 5th level or so. That would be consistent with what we've been told about Team Evil's dungeon delving, as understatement had noted. They do it at dusk (so Redcloak hasn't had time to recharge), the process drains Redcloak especially of spells (having to use separate spell slots to heal living and undead party members), and they've increased the pace lately (meaning he should be even more drained). That he had a 9th-level tucked away after all doesn't necessarily imply he's not really drained, or that he will have a lot of good options left for preventing Durkon's escape if he survives the surprise attack. He has a track record of keeping a powerful trump card in reserve, even when he's otherwise exhausted. Now that he's blown it, he may be in some difficulty.

None of which may be relevant at all if Durkon simply dies here, of course.