OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[CriticalFailure]

I don't quite know where this would fit in with what I was trying to say, but since I left the actual point of the argument I was trying to make unsaid, the communication failure is on my end.

To try again: it wouldn't surprise me if Redcloak is actually very low on spell slots above 5th level or so. That would be consistent with what we've been told about Team Evil's dungeon delving, as understatement had noted. They do it at dusk (so Redcloak hasn't had time to recharge), the process drains Redcloak especially of spells (having to use separate spell slots to heal living and undead party members), and they've increased the pace lately (meaning he should be even more drained). That he had a 9th-level tucked away after all doesn't necessarily imply he's not really drained, or that he will have a lot of good options left for preventing Durkon's escape if he survives the surprise attack. He has a track record of keeping a powerful trump card in reserve, even when he's otherwise exhausted. Now that he's blown it, he may be in some difficulty.

None of which may be relevant at all if Durkon simply dies here, of course.

Yeah, back at the battle of AC he was specifically shown to have a few high level spells in reserve even when he said he was out.

[B. Dandelion]

Yeah, back at the battle of AC he was specifically shown to have a few high level spells in reserve even when he said he was out.

Yep, I had pointed that out specifically.

I'm thinking back to #480 when Redcloak said he didn't have many spells left and then OHKO'd Hinjo with a surprise 7th-level. The main battle was over then, and I think he really was running low, just like most of the other casters were at that point in the day. Redcloak is the type to always keep one last heavy-hitter attack spell in reserve even when it looks like most of the fighting is over, just in case an unexpectedly powerful enemy tries to ambush him.

It wouldn't seem odd to me if it were similar here. He could have been drained of most high-level spells except for that emergency Implosion.

> Replies: 1,015

wow

Still over 1000 posts short of Hilgya killing Durkon, but coming close to parity with Malack killing Durkon. Although it's taken a week for this thread to catch up with 877 -- so actually, maybe surprisingly, Redcloak killing Durkon appears to be less controversial than Malack or Hilgya doing it.

[CriticalFailure]

Yep, I had pointed that out specifically.

oh I idn't see that comment

[Peelee]

Yeah, back at the battle of AC he was specifically shown to have a few high level spells in reserve even when he said he was out.

He never said he was out. He said he didn't have many. He just failed to specify whether or not they were powerful.

But yeah, he Redcloak looks to be the anti-Laurin. Keep the heavy hitters in reserve instead of breaking them out early and often.

[CriticalFailure]

Right, sorry for not specifying..

[Riftwolf]

People talking about disintegrating the body: does Implosion leave a body? It might just be because I've watched Antman and Thor 2, but I'd expect implosion to leave behind, at best, goo. At worst, a singularity.

[understatement]

Still over 1000 posts short of Hilgya killing Durkon, but coming close to parity with Malack killing Durkon. Although it's taken a week for this thread to catch up with 877 -- so actually, maybe surprisingly, Redcloak killing Durkon appears to be less controversial than Malack or Hilgya doing it.

I guess people have gotten used to Durkon getting killed by Evil clerics.

[AeronGrey]

What I really hope happens is that the spell just fizzles out. Why would that happen you ask? Because RC is acting directly against his god's interests. Here Durkon was giving him a frank and serious offer on behalf of the gods to give goblinoids equal rights, even so much as so say he would do his best to allow them to keep Gobbletopia, basically everything that The Dark One wants, and RC just flat out rejects it due to what...pride? Because he is so proud that his evil plan is scaring the gods? If I was the Dark One I would take away his powers then and there and godslap him for his audacity to do this without even consulting his god. But that's just me. But yes, if this isn't the case, I do really hope Durkon was smart enough to have cast Death Ward on himself.

[Schroeswald]

Still over 1000 posts short of Hilgya killing Durkon, but coming close to parity with Malack killing Durkon. Although it's taken a week for this thread to catch up with 877 -- so actually, maybe surprisingly, Redcloak killing Durkon appears to be less controversial than Malack or Hilgya doing it.

I didn't know that threads were allowed to be as long as 1149 is

[JSSheridan]

I cannot wait to see how big the thread will get on the final strip.

Giant posting, pinning, and locking the tread would be the greatest troll though

[B. Dandelion]

I guess people have gotten used to Durkon getting killed by Evil clerics.

I think the kill not being confirmed is also a key factor. If the next strip shows Durkon's corpse and whatever Redcloak does with it, people will doubtless have a lot to say. If it also includes giving us the remainder of Durkon's gruesome and excruciating death, it will probably horrify people out of their complacency entirely.

(Though I think I'd still be surprised if it topped the Hilgya thread no matter what. Redcloak's a controversial character, but Hilgya was in a category of her own.)

[pendell]

In the real world, yes. In a world where dead bodies commonly return to life, to the point where the afterlife has a revolving door, destroying the body is the equivalent of making sure that a disabled or injured opponent is really dead.

If Redcloak succeeds in killing Durkon, and really does want him permanently dead, he’ll make sure of it.

But I still suspect there’s something more going on here (i.e., that either Durkon will survive or that Redcloak’s motivations are more complex than they seem).

Actually, it's not uncommon in the real world for soldiers to unload into "dead" bodies. Some people play dead and leap up at you when you're not expecting it. If you've got ammo to spare, sometimes it's useful to make sure "dead" people really are dead.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What I really hope happens is that the spell just fizzles out. Why would that happen you ask? Because RC is acting directly against his god's interests. Here Durkon was giving him a frank and serious offer on behalf of the gods to give goblinoids equal rights, even so much as so say he would do his best to allow them to keep Gobbletopia, basically everything that The Dark One wants, and RC just flat out rejects it due to what...pride? Because he is so proud that his evil plan is scaring the gods? If I was the Dark One I would take away his powers then and there and godslap him for his audacity to do this without even consulting his god. But that's just me. But yes, if this isn't the case, I do really hope Durkon was smart enough to have cast Death Ward on himself.

Gods can't take away spells already granted. And Redcloak is doing exactly what his deity told him: Finish The Plan, and don't screw up. And Death Ward has no effect on a spell that does not include the {Death} tag.

I'm pretty sure this has been pointed out several times now.

[understatement]

I think the kill not being confirmed is also a key factor. If the next strip shows Durkon's corpse and whatever Redcloak does with it, people will doubtless have a lot to say. If it also includes giving us the remainder of Durkon's gruesome and excruciating death, it will probably horrify people out of their complacency entirely.

(Though I think I'd still be surprised if it topped the Hilgya thread no matter what. Redcloak's a controversial character, but Hilgya was in a category of her own.)

That definitely makes sense. I remembered reading 1149 and being really surprised and I wanted to know how other people thought of it, so I finally went over the forum -- and the range of responses were interesting, to say in the least. Fond first memories.

Yeah, Redcloak is a character of many interpretations, but for Hilgya I think it boiled down "didn't like her" to "absolute hatred".

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's also Weirdo's outright worship of her.

[mjasghar]

Half the posts were people not reading the thread and so repeating previous ideas and then the inevitable responses

[hamishspence]

Gods can't take away spells already granted.

They can take away a cleric's ability to cast them though., under certain circumstances.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons.

Otherwise though, they have to wait till the mortal prepares them:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...tm#grantSpells

A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended.

[KorvinStarmast]

I didn't know that threads were allowed to be as long as 1149 is

I think that one of the mods once said (and this might be on a different sub forum that I recall this from) that at about 50 pages it becomes time to close the thread and begin a sequel.

[hamishspence]

I think that one of the mods once said (and this might be on a different sub forum that I recall this from) that at about 50 pages it becomes time to close the thread and begin a sequel.

I don't know where it was first stated - but one of the later statements was:

Threads should always be restarted after 50 pages. This isn't a hard and fast rule, they can go slightly beyond 50 pages if there's no one around who's ready to do it. But, it should never be done before page 50 (without good reason).

And from here:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Thread-Length

It's an administrative rule more than a conduct rule. We're unlikely to get on anyone's case about there being an over-length thread. But you should start a new one when you get to 50 and report the thread so we can close the old one,

When a thread hits 50 pages, start then to move to a new thread. But, don't panic if it spills over by a few pages, you don't have to nix the old thread immediately.

[The_Weirdo]

Still over 1000 posts short of Hilgya killing Durkon

I'll take some of the credit for that, TYVM.

[ackmondual]

I'm glad I accidently jumped to the end of the strip. Knowing it's a cliffhanger, I'll wait it out for another strip or 3 to better resolve!

[pendell]

Um ... I'm going to ask this.

If Durkon survives and is resurrected, that means he'll be down three levels from his previous peak -- he lost a level when he was resurrected after being killed by Malack, probably lost another when Hilda Flame Struck him dead, and now this will be #3.

How does he earn those XP back? As I recall, the monsters in these dungeons are so tough that even Xykon, with his Lich LA, managed to pick up some XP. Will they do some grinding before the main event? Will they be able to, now that Redcloak is alerted to their presence?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Gray Mage]

I don't quite know where this would fit in with what I was trying to say, but since I left the actual point of the argument I was trying to make unsaid, the communication failure is on my end.

Danielxcutter can correct me if I'm wrong, but I read that as being in agreement that he may be low in spells, since the domain slot is limited in what spell to pick (it's either Implosion or Summon Monster IX) and as implosion might be a poor choice in the dungeons it might go unused, even though it's a high spell slot/powerfull spell. So it's a plausible spell to be left over.

[understatement]

Um ... I'm going to ask this.

If Durkon survives and is resurrected, that means he'll be down three levels from his previous peak -- he lost a level when he was resurrected after being killed by Malack, probably lost another when Hilda Flame Struck him dead, and now this will be #3.

How does he earn those XP back? As I recall, the monsters in these dungeons are so tough that even Xykon, with his Lich LA, managed to pick up some XP. Will they do some grinding before the main event? Will they be able to, now that Redcloak is alerted to their presence?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

If Durkon survives, he'll be fine.

Regardless of his action here, I don't think Redcloak will try to alert this to Xykon in any way -- the fact that a dwarf tried diplomacy with him is enough for suspicion.

[Emperor Time]

If Durkon survives, he'll be fine.

Regardless of his action here, I don't think Redcloak will try to alert this to Xykon in any way -- the fact that a dwarf tried diplomacy with him is enough for suspicion.

I have to agree since Durkon has info about the rifts that Xykon has no knowledge about. If he learns about it then who can say if Xykon won't eliminate Redcloak for hiding such valuable information from him for all this time. Even if he spares Redcloak's life, it probably changes Xykon's plan greatly when it comes to the final gate. Maybe even enough to where he won't even help Redcloak with his half of the spell and Redcloak can't accomplish it on his own.

[RatElemental]

People talking about disintegrating the body: does Implosion leave a body? It might just be because I've watched Antman and Thor 2, but I'd expect implosion to leave behind, at best, goo. At worst, a singularity.

The spell doesn't specify what happens to the remains very well. I maintain that a "destructive resonance" causing your body to crush itself doesn't have to go beyond a particularly mangled death by crushing. Spells that leave the corpse in a particularly notable state, such as disintegrate, usually note as such. Any compression of total volume is just speculation or ruling on the part of the player/dm.

[arimareiji]

I have to agree since Durkon has info about the rifts that Xykon has no knowledge about. If he learns about it then who can say if Xykon won't eliminate Redcloak for hiding such valuable information from him for all this time. Even if he spares Redcloak's life, it probably changes Xykon's plan greatly when it comes to the final gate. Maybe even enough to where he won't even help Redcloak with his half of the spell and Redcloak can't accomplish it on his own.

A belated thought... when Durkon walked up, Oona was walking away. Oona didn't know who Durkon was, but what if Xykon asked where Redcloak had gotten off to ?

Redcloak doesn't hesitate to eliminate even his own loyal people if there's a non-zero chance something could tip off Xykon that he's being double-crossedwrt the Snarl. If Redcloak got even a hint that Xykon might be nearby, let alone saw him, he wouldn't hesitate to Implode Durkon - even if he loved Durkon's idea and was 100% on board.

[Gurgeh]

The bugbear Redcloak was talking to probably wasn't Oona, since their mask is different (doesn't have the big antlers).

[arimareiji]

The bugbear Redcloak was talking to probably wasn't Oona, since their mask is different (doesn't have the big antlers).

I'll take your word for it, but I believe the overall point is unaffected.

The spell doesn't specify what happens to the remains very well. I maintain that a "destructive resonance" causing your body to crush itself doesn't have to go beyond a particularly mangled death by crushing.

That's what we saw when Redcloak imploded someone while recovering Xykon's phylactery. Panel showed their face being warped (saving throw?), then panel two showed them going sqwrhygiewtch (failed save, takes effect).

[Mightymosy]

Rich really is a vegetarian. He mentioned, in the published book's notes, that his description of Malack's plan for industrial style vampirism was a deliberate echo of real-world slaughterhouses. Yes, Rich really is a vegetarian for ethical reasons and he's put it in his strip.

I have a different viewpoint from him, but I respect his convictions.
And I am serious in wondering if he would consider opening a business based around butchery to be an evil act. It wouldn't be by RAW, obviously, but OOTS world doesn't run strictly on those.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Consider the hydra burgers......
THAT is EVIL