OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[Emanick]

On the other hand, Kubota was apparently supposed to be one of the smartest Azurite nobles, and he seemed to assume he could retake the city as an afterthought once he'd overthrown Hinjo, so I'm not sure they actually appreciate just how difficult that would really be.

That was on the day of the invasion itself. Once the Azurites have been defeated, and the strategic situation crystallizes, nobody seems to suggest that they’re in any real shape to retake the city, not even Kubota, IIRC. Certainly there is no suggestion that Hinjo is being pressured to launch a military operation to seize the city in the short term, even though, in the long-term, it’s obviously something he wants to accomplish, with help from the Resistance and the elves.

[masonwheeler]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

[fuschiawarrior]

Durkon won't die from Redcloak's spell because it's clear he and Minrah have a contingency plan. Durkon himself remembers in this strip that he was killed the last time he dealt with another cleric, he would pe prepared.

The goblinoids aren't Redcloak, they aren't even the Dark One. The Plan will fail but the goblinoids will have a betterment in their standing in the end of the comic. I am pretty sure that the azurites won't regain total control of Gobbotopia and if they come back it will be through a treaty and a somewhat peaceful coexistence with the goblinoids.

[archaeo]

3.x is the only edition to use frequency terms with racial alignments.

Goblins in 3.0 and 3.5 are not "Always Evil", they are a "usually" race.

I stand corrected, though it doesn’t much change my point. The fate of Goblinkind has been presented as a major problem in the narrative and any happy ending will require a solution. Since I have enough faith in Burlew to believe he’s not planning on shipping them all off to the planet in the rifts and calling it a job well done, I’m very interested to see how he wraps it up.

[Etilworg]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

This.

He want the victim points to justify his actions.

Evil is not an aligment, is the things we do.

[Alcore]

I think Redcloak just had his final Kick The Dog moment.

And it appears that Durkon will be telling Thor very quickly, "Nae, tha didn'a work."

He will at least be able to return with information to Thor. I think this is the first time (or nearly so) that any talks have happened. Getting the other side of the story is key for diplomacy.

[Ghosty]

+4 against the Poison spell vs +2 against Implosion, is my point. And the DC of the save does scale with the caster's wisdom (or other casting stat), as well as the spell level. Not the caster level, thankfully.

Thanks. Shows how much 3.5 I play...

So, something like 1/3 that Durkon survives?

[archaeo]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

There’s no possible way this is Burlew’s goal, nor is that subtext clear at all. If anything, “everyone’s deserving of equality” remains a central theme to the work, not something that Burlew’s trying to subvert. Redcloak is very obviously a character intended to complicate that theme, but there’s simply no way that Burlew is going to write an ending in which it turns out that, oops, in the end, everyone was right about those dastardly goblins.

[KorvinStarmast]

Goblinkind Isn’t Redcloak.

If we go back to strip 704, The Dark One is very clear on what he needs out of Jirix for the betterment of goblinkind:

... battles of trade and logistics, diplomacy and intrigue.

I will venture a guess that the future of goblinkind is in Jirix's hands, not Redcloak's. Redcloak is a prophet, not a king. (Also in strip 704 is a ref from the TDO to Jirix regarding Redcloak as "The True Prophet" ...) and I had a bit of an aha moment as I reviewed that crayon drawing.

TDO wears a red cloak. That never registered with me before.

[Fyraltari]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

Taking Rich’s stance on the « usually evil races » issue, his view on fiction and its relationship to real life issues, the current political climate and the entirety of How the Paladin got his Scar into account, I feel confident that « Sike! It was actually the goblins’ fault that they are mistreated all along! There wouldn’t have been any prejudice against them if they’d been nice and they got worked up over nothing! Therefore it’s totally okay to massacre them, go spare! » is about 180° away from the point The Giant is trying to make.

[masonwheeler]

This.

He want the victim points to justify his actions.

Evil is not an aligment, is the things we do.

I would simply say that, properly understood, alignment is the things you do. It's a formalization of the feedback loop between choices and character: you become Evil by having done enough evil things in your past that it becomes an integral part of who you are, and then you do evil things because being Evil is an integral part of who you are.

[DougTheHead]

I'm placing my bet on "Durkon was in gaseous Wind Walk form the whole time," both because it gives him a way to escape, and because it would give Redcloak the opportunity for a wisecrack along the lines of, "I knew your proposals were nothing but hot air, but I didn't expect the same to be true of you."

[Etilworg]

There’s no possible way this is Burlew’s goal, nor is that subtext clear at all. If anything, “everyone’s deserving of equality” remains a central theme to the work, not something that Burlew’s trying to subvert. Redcloak is very obviously a character intended to complicate that theme, but there’s simply no way that Burlew is going to write an ending in which it turns out that, oops, in the end, everyone was right about those dastardly goblins.

No, RedCloak is evil, and you can not judge a race from the actions of one individual.

The goblins as race only want the same as other races to live and prosper, they have families , bussiness, dreams , things to do, places to be.

[understatement]

...okay, this thread's smilie is very misleading. Which I guess was the point.

The moment I saw Durkon smiling, knew it was over. It's the exact same format of panels as 1150, when Hilgya killed him. Everytime Durkon smiles when he talks to another Evil cleric, he's about to die.

As for Redcloak...do I still like the character? Yes. Do I really, really want to throttle him for going this way? Yes. Intellectually, there was no way he'd let Durkon leave alive, but the last row of panels has exactly the same amount of frustration and disappointment (in a good way!) that SOD's ending had.

Time for Minrah to use mini-Mjolnr to save the day.

[Dausuul]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

Redcloak's own brother is the counter to this argument. Right-Eye was given a choice, and he chose to turn his back on The Plan and try to make a better life for his own people.

It's Redcloak, personally, who is making an evil choice here. Your observation about his self-justifying behavior is entirely correct, but it's an observation about the character of Redcloak, not about all goblinkind.

[Psyren]

Well... Reddy didn't check him for buffs, and we don't know what gear Durkon is wearing. Surviving this is possible, but it does mean he probably needs to get out of range.

But putting aside Redcloak's general stupidity here, burning a 9th-level slot just to make a point when he's about to dive into more epic-level dungeons puts his idiocy on a whole other level.

Evil is not an aligment, is the things we do.

Alignment is "the things we do"

[LordCdrMilitant]

Well, that's a bait and switch title!

That said:
If I was Redcloak, I don't think I would be looking to accept Durkon's terms either. At the very least, I don't really think Durkon's arguments over the course of the parley were particularly convincing, or effective.
Redcloak and The Dark One was full recognition as a deity and social equality for Goblins.
Durkon effectively offered neither of those things, and effectively only offered things that by his own admission he doesn't have the authority to offer and said "if you stand down and accept my promise of something I can't actually give that isn't either of your original ask, we might propose an internal question to consider opening negotiations on your actual terms."

Also, Gobbotopia was recognized by a good number of foreign states, so Durkon is further offering something that's basically already happened. Azure City doesn't have to reject their claims on the ground for the nation of Gobbotopia to be recognized or trade with neighbor powers.

And his general argument also rubbed me the wrong way, because it's essentially the same as a number of arguments used against advancing the cause of disadvantaged, minority, and non-cishet groups. "You already have 'equality', what more do you want?" when the 'equality' isn't really equal and is either notional or conditional.


Anyway, I'm unsuprised by Redcloak's response.

[masonwheeler]

Taking Rich’s stance on the « usually evil races » issue, his view on fiction and its relationship to real life issues, the current political climate and the entirety of How the Paladin got his Scar into account, I feel confident that « Sike! It was actually the goblins’ fault that they are mistreated all along! There wouldn’t have been any prejudice against them if they’d been nice and they got worked up over nothing! Therefore it’s totally okay to massacre them, go spare! » is about 180° away from the point The Giant is trying to make.

Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.

What other conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?

[The MunchKING]

I have been a Redcloak fan for quite some time, but this is just foolish. Self-destructive and foolish.

No. It's DURKON-Destructive. And probably Foolish.

Well, Durkon was successful in getting Redcloak to provide a 9th-level spell slot.

It needs to be in a "rebuild the Gates" ritual, not just a spell cast targeting him.

So, how does Implosion work, exactly? Is it « if target fails save then Target dies » or would a sufficiently high level target manage to rank the effects?

It's just Save-Or-Die. Fortunately it doesn't work on Gaseous creatures. UNfortunately if Durkon was Solid, he needed a 5 round advanced warning to go gaseous again.

I think that's an oblique reference to something magical ... I am hoping some 3.5 expert folks can parse that.

I thought it was just "don't go with a criminal to another location, because they'll just kill/worse stuff you there out of sight of everyone else" reference. I don't think Clerics get much in the way of Illusion spells.

Implosion specifically doesn't affect gaseous forms and incorporeal creatures.
Wind Walk turns one into gas and has a duration of hour/level.
Durkon and RC never touched.

By RAW He touched the Stone. It could be a thing for narrative effect, but given that and the bit about Rich always (AFAIR) draws Wind Walkers as translucent cloud-like guys, I'm guessing he's solid.

(Mass) Death Ward works against Implosion, right?

Nope, it's not a Negative Energy Effect, it's just godly-power setting up a destructive resonance that crushes you.

Several art upgrades ago. And they've got a bigger special effects budget now.

Also the Vampire Gaze where Roy Had Swirly eyes for a few panels before yelling "I can Multitask" was according to the Giant supposed to be showing that he made his save. So there is prescedent for the spell having a show of it's effects esp. if they're cool enough.

But does failing the save always mean death?

Yup, and no limits on HP or Level or anything. Just Save or Die.

that got a RL laugh out of me
While I am sure he has a high Wisdom, I was always under the impression that Redcloak's highest stat was Int, though I guess he'd put points in Wis as he leveled up. Not sure why I have that impression.

I don't know about "highest", but he needs at least WIS 19 to cast Implosion.

[Peelee]

I'm actually surprised at more than a few comments here.

First, there was a beat panel after Redcloak cast Implosion, and we see the effect. It's too late for a saving throw or counterspell or what have you. I think Durkon is going to die.

But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.

I also think Reddie will be bringing Durkon back, and there'll be a joke about him only being revived by Evil clerics.

And, after all that, I'm going to try one last, entirely-opposite-direction theory - the Implosion won't go off because TDO himself revokes the spell's power, as foreshadowed in the first panel here. This isn't my primary theory in part because I don't think that will happen yet, but I do think it will eventually happen.

It was a good attempt by Durkon but it was never going to happen. Even if he could get Hinjo to agree to giving up Azure City, the rest of the Azure City nobility would threaten a coup just for suggesting the idea. They're cutthroat at the best of times. Giving up their dreams of retaking the home would unite them against Hinjo.

Hinjo: "You and what army? We couldn't defeat the goblins with the full might of the military, do you think your personal guard has any chance? It would take generations to build ourselves back up to any sort of strength where we could retake our homeland, and by that point we would be long dead and our people would see this island as their home, and Azure City as a place they've never known. Will your zeal be genetic?"

On the other hand, Kubota was apparently supposed to be one of the smartest Azurite nobles, and he seemed to assume he could retake the city as an afterthought once he'd overthrown Hinjo, so I'm not sure they actually appreciate just how difficult that would really be.

Kubota was the most ambitious of the nobles, not necessarily the smartest.

I....think it's a reference to John Mulaney's standup routine. As an elementary school student, Mulaney's class would be visited every year by a police detective who gave what 2020 would consider horribly age-inappropriate facts and statistics about kidnapping survival rates. Namely that there was a good chance, if you were kidnapped, of recovering you alive from the "primary location," but you were pretty much dead meat if the kidnapper was able to get you to his more secure "secondary location."

So, to this day, John Mulaney (says he) will not go to two places in one night.

I've never seen John Mulaney standup. I know about the second location thing. It's not uncommon knowledge, IMO, and not necessarily a reference to a popular comedian.

[Anansiil]

aaaahhhhh!
Well that was tragic... I'd look forward to learning Red Cloak's exact rationale... he must have reasons... and they probably are not great ones...

Let's hope that other cleric will be an appropriate ace in the hole... else Thor will be getting a very direct report on the outcome of this meeting...

[El Dorado]

Can you still say this went pear-shaped? I mean when that particular spell was used?

[TRH]

That was on the day of the invasion itself. Once the Azurites have been defeated, and the strategic situation crystallizes, nobody seems to suggest that they’re in any real shape to retake the city, not even Kubota, IIRC. Certainly there is no suggestion that Hinjo is being pressured to launch a military operation to seize the city in the short term, even though, in the long-term, it’s obviously something he wants to accomplish, with help from the Resistance and the elves.

Depends on how you define short-term. Hinjo does mention his intent to do so in #502, "when we've found allies and built our forces back up." Vague, but hardly sounds like a generations-long project or anything. For him to agree not to do that, which Redcloak would certainly insist on committing to paper, and being bound to that by his honor as a paladin would almost certainly infuriate the nobility, especially if they're the least bit more impetuous than Hinjo himself. Real-life coups have been provoked by far less than this.

[archaeo]

Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.

What other conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?

That Redcloak is hopelessly misguided and maybe participating in the universe’s biggest Sunk Cost Fallacy ever? Redcloak is the epitome of “the road to hell is paved with good intentions.” The entire ends-justify-the-means approach he’s taken is a very good illustration of exactly why it’s bad.

I also tend to think that if you’re reading OOTS and you’ve based your conclusions about an entire species based on the actions of one representative of it, you may have missed the point being made by the text.

[Heksefatter]

Durkon, Durkon, Durkon ...you should at least have mentioned that The Dark One would be in grave danger if the gods destroyed the world. I don't think that The Dark One would have believed it, but Redcloak might.

Also, Redcloak: It is very impolite to cast implosion during negotiations!

[Dausuul]

Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.

What other conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?

That Redcloak, personally, is an evil hypocrite who would murder

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

his own brother

to avoid having to admit that he was wrong.

There are goblins in OotS other than Redcloak.

[Peelee]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

I just want to go on the record and state that no, I do not believe The Giant will subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. In no small part because that not being subverted seems to be a central theme in his writing. Arguably the central theme.

[prism6691]

Sunk cost fallacy prevails again. Assuming the art is indicative of him failing the saving throw, Im stumped to what will come next. I don't see a spell on the cleric spell list that minrah could have cast that might help, it seems too late to be countered. Wind walk does make you as if gaseous form, which implosion specifically fails against, but transitioning to and from the gaseous state takes 5 rounds. I suppose he could be under an illusion effect making him appear solid, with a range limit which would explain why he wouldn't go to a second location. However the Order/Durkon has never seen Redcloak use implosion, to gamble that he would use it here and counter it. I'm stumped.

We might see Thor intervene directly. Which would have other repercussions.

[johnbragg]

...maybe the next strip opens with a pink counterspell?

That wasn't a very common thing in 3rd edition, and I don't think the art supports it (Durkon would have to be casting Dispel Magic *now*. It's not super clear in the 3E rules how that works in terms of the action economy. Durkon would have had to have held an action to cast Dispel Magic as a counterspell. So the short answer is, Naah.)

[jedipilot24]

Well that didn't work.

Why didn't Durkon bring up the whole "the Dark One won't survive to the next world" thing?