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2020-08-03, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-03, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2013
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Given that it’s a fortitude save, maybe we should expect Durkon to have to visibly work to counteract the spell in the next page?
Killing Durkon off here would be a pretty intense decision after spending several hundred strips on a quest to save him followed by him getting a literal Mission From God. Not out of the question! But a big move to make.Last edited by archaeo; 2020-08-03 at 09:59 AM.
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2020-08-03, 10:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
As others have said, once Redcloak rejects Durkon’s offer they are ennemies and, ever the pragmatic, he moves to take him and his team out of the picture in the most efficient way he can think of.
That Redclaok is a damaged individual who does more harm than good to his own cause. Redclaok is, at the end of the day, a sympathetic antagonist, not a hero. This will never end in him getting everything he wants.
He’s looking at the ground, though. And Durkon would have a clear view of whatever Redclaok was seeing from this angle. And Redclaok does not look surprised in any way. And the table would give the lie to him immedialtely. I think this panel is simpmy Redclaok making his decision.
Originally Posted by PeeleeForum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-03, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.
I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.Avatar by Gurgleflep
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2020-08-03, 10:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I think that's talking about a Deity revoking spell-casting power for a Cleric. RAW as far as I know doesn't spell out whether a Cleric gets to keep the spells in their head until they cast them and just never gets to replenish his spells, or loses all spells provided by that God immediately, but either way; I think once he's cast the spell and it's gone off is a little to late for revoking spell-casting to mean anything.
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2020-08-03, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I don't think it subverts the trope at all. RedCloak isn't all goblins. His antisocial actions in no way should be attributed to all goblins. Those actions are a symbol of his flaws, not those of Goblinkind.
What does RC really want here? The goblins were created as a prey race, but there's no unringing that bell in this version of Stickworld. True, humans view them as XP fodder, but humans (and all other adventurers of any race, that care about XP) also view other humans that way. And kobolds, trolls, dragons, and the odd Tarrasque. I guess they could ask the Gods to tell their worshippers that killing a goblin is the same as killing any other sentient being that isn't currently threatening to kill them.
Is RC asking for that though? Further, how could he be sure the Gods won't go back on that concession, or any other concession they might grant now due to fear of the Snarl?
In the preceding strips, all I see from him is complaining about the hand they were dealt, and that they intend to hang onto Gobbotopia. Plus not believing that the Gods will torch Stickworld rather than let RC go through with the Plan. And that he seemed surprised and delighted that Durkon offered a peace treaty between the Azurites and the goblins. If he's expecting perpetual peace out of that, well good luck. Show me the human, or any other D&D racial group, that's ever been at perpetual peace with its neighbors.
It's too bad that RC can't go to the Astral Plane and see the Graveyard of Worlds for himself.
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2020-08-03, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
To be fair, it's a lot more common in OOTS than it is at your average table. That said, it has hit Durkon, that much is clear. I don't think it's too late for the saving throw, but almost certainly too late to counterspell. People meant a counterspell from V or someone else, I'm pretty sure, but no reason to expect them to have caught up to Durkon already either.
Why would Redcloak buy that, of all things? Honestly, I don't think he realizes that there's been more than two worlds, and Durkon has no evidence to support that claim. Without it, there's no way to support an argument that gods don't necessarily survive the transition from one world to the next.
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2020-08-03, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, first do the things, THEN get the aligment label .
You encounter a goblin in a dungeon, what is he doing? Usually evil things.
The problem is not that they have an aligment label, but that the dungeon master forgets to include goblins that are selling hydra w/gouda burgers, so USUALLY becomes ALWAYS in your eyes.
i will not touch real world events but if you only see one type of news, your world view is very skewed in that direction
Domination effects can succed then give you a second saving throw "any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus."Last edited by Etilworg; 2020-08-03 at 10:11 AM.
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2020-08-03, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
It just occurred to me that if Durkon dies to this, the Order has no way to bring him back, not even if they went back to Hilgya and somehow convinced her to help again. Resurrection requires a piece of the body, and implosion won't leave any.
The only way to revive him would be true resurrection, and the only cleric in the vicinity who can cast that is Redcloak himself.
(On the plus side, true resurrection doesn't drain any levels, so Durkon won't get socked in the XP department any more than he already has.)
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2020-08-03, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2020-08-03, 10:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Next page, first panel:
"...made my saving throw."An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2020-08-03, 10:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Niu has and she reported back to Hinjo who contacted Haley back at the pyramid. Further discussion may have happened off-screen.
A) the Dark One may not survive to the next world.
B) Why would Redcloak believe him?
Redclaok is looking the other way.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-03, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I formally withdraw my statement, and I will put my picture on the "Hall of Theories that went bottom up" later.
Also, I'm pretty surprised that Redcloak's still packing a whole 9th level spell from a night of extensive dungeon crawling. In hindsight, I'm glad the Order didn't show up -- V, Haley, or Elan would have been killed instantaneously.
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2020-08-03, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
And one other thought: It's just possible that Durkon will, in his last moments, announce his devotion to the Dark One.
If he can do it with enough conviction to make it stick, that would allow him to speak directly to TDO and deliver Thor's message.
(Edit: To be clear, I don't think this is likely. I'm betting that the next panel will feature Durkon announcing that he made his saving throw. But it would make a heck of an interesting twist.)Last edited by Dausuul; 2020-08-03 at 10:15 AM.
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2020-08-03, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Who else would he be shooting at? Xykon's not in town, and it'd be poor form to show his acceptance of peace by blowing up Oona. There could be someone off-screen, but I don't see anything to indicate that, let alone something that would be better depicted by Implosion over, say, Hold Person.
...is it possible for RC to interrupt his spell and leave Durkon with heavy damage instead of death?Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2020-08-03 at 10:12 AM.
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2020-08-03, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
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2020-08-03, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-08-03, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-03, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
...and we all know how that turned out for him.
It's Redcloak, personally, who is making an evil choice here. Your observation about his self-justifying behavior is entirely correct, but it's an observation about the character of Redcloak, not about all goblinkind.
To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.
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2020-08-03, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
But even if they were to counter Implosion with wind walk, the transition takes 5 rounds. Hes not gaseous, unless under an illusion and with Elan and V not being aware of this gambit to prepare an illusion before hand, Im at a loss for what spell would be creating the illusion that a Cleric could cast.
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2020-08-03, 10:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Oh.
Ooooh.
I get it.
SpoilerHow else is Durkon gonna talk to Thor again about the agreement? RC is just being ... expedient.
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2020-08-03, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-08-03, 10:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Yep. You've got to give Durkon credit, he gave it a genuine effort, argued in good faith, used no intimidation and relied solely on appeals to reason, trying to make a situation where everyone benefits, even if they aren't all exactly happy.
Sadly, by trying to bring things down to a mortal level and discuss things without the gods involved, Durkon left out his biggest bargaining chip: The Dark One's own existence. As stated, the Dark One might not survive to the next world because he doesn't have enough "divine inertia" so to speak, not enough belief to let him survive the rebuilding of the world. If Durkon had brought that up, Red Cloak likely would have had to at least try to communicate that with his god for further information.
Red Cloak and the Dark One don't realize that they stand to lose more than just this world, they stand to lose the only god the goblins have and any potential of being on an equal footing. So sealing the Snarl is not only the best for everyone involved, NOT sealing the Snarl is basically suicide for the Dark One and oblivion for all of the goblins.
But I think Durkon avoided bringing that up (assuming he didn't just forget) because he wanted to win Red Cloak over from a purely (for lack of a better term) humanitarian argument. He wanted to show that the mortal races could achieve equality themselves through hard work, negotiations, diplomacy and patience. And Red Cloak is in a unique position thanks to his long life to help shape the destiny of his people for the better, live long enough to see it happen.
In essence, Durkon wanted to convince Red Cloak to work with him solely out of what would be best long term for the goblin people without hanging any threat over their heads that the goblins didn't already know about (ie, the gods destroying the world, the gate over Goblintopia, etc.). Because Durkon is a good person.
Unfortunately, as pointed out here . . .
. . . Red Cloak is not. Red Cloak is, at the end of the day, incapable of taking responsibility for any actions that don't make him look or feel good.
Everything he's done for decades has been for "The Plan". If success is gained through any means other than "The Plan", then he'll always have to ask himself if the cost for success was great because he stuck to a plan that was never going to work.
Honestly, at this point, if Red Cloak was directly told by his own god to knock it off, forget the plan and work with the Order to save the world, Red Cloak might honestly REFUSE to do so, because the Plan has to work. He might defy even his god because the god isn't doing what Red Cloak has convinced himself needs to happen.
While I do think that a fictional race can serve whatever purpose the creator wishes and that there's nothing inherently wrong or racist with an "always evil species" as D&D defines it, Dausuul is definitely correct in that Rich does not endorse that idea. He'd in no way want to put forth the idea that "it was the goblins own fault all along because they ARE all irredeemably evil", because he vehemently opposes that idea.
What we've seen from the goblins in Rich's setting is that they have just as much capacity to have free will, be rational, work with others and are effectively just humans with green skin, pointy ears and fangs. As a species, in Rich's world there's no reason why the goblins couldn't be a nation just as prosperous and respected as any human, elf or dwarf territory, apart from the racism of other nations.
So as a whole, in the OotS setting, this definitely isn't a case for the goblins being irredeemably evil.
It is, however, a strong case for Red Cloak to be irredeemably evil by this point. Because, as masonwheeler mentioned, every time Red Cloak has the chance to do something that will get the goblins the equality he claims to want, he does something evil, treacherous, underhanded and selfish.
Because it's no longer about making sure the goblins get equality. It's about making sure the goblins get equality in the way HE wants, that HE'S worked for, because it's the only way to absolve HIS guilt.
In a very Star Wars / Darkside of the Force way, Red Cloak has gone from thinking about his people to thinking only about himself.Last edited by Pax_Chi; 2021-04-22 at 10:43 AM.
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2020-08-03, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Durkon might or might not make the saving throw (I'm leaning towards thinking that he'll do), but either way we're not given enough information to say that conclusively.
It makes sense to show the effects in either case: while a character's fortitude might save them from destructive pressures, but they still pull at them.
Just like one could still draw a (subtler) reaction on receiving damage when making a successful concentration check instead of a no-sell.
Anyway, opening with a fort save spell against a dwarf cleric is rather weak. Looking at cleric spell list, it still looks like the best surprise move, IMHO.And on thaere hwíle
Héo dréag thá losinga
Ealra thinga the héo forléas
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2020-08-03, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Do you generalize every society/group you encounter by the individuals you happen to know the best? Just within this story, that would obligate us to write off the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears. And Greysky City, since we only really met the Thieves' Guild. And...
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2020-08-03, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Riffing off of that: Could Redcloak be casting Implosion on himself? What if this is his way to get an audience with his god? Even if he wants to agree to Durkon's proposal, he probably cannot make a unilateral decision for the Dark One. And it was recently mentioned that he has never actually talked to him, so we can assume that TDO doesn't answer spells like Commune or Divine Guidance to facilitate something like this. So this could just be a somewhat extreme measure to get some immediate face-to-larger-and-glowing-face time to discuss these urgent matters.
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2020-08-03, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
Well, hey! You know what Implosion is? A level 9 spell.
Is that enough for Thor to do what's needed to bind the snarl?
If so, now we can get back to the epic battle brewing between the order and Xykon.
Bye Durkon! Another honorable death in the bag.
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2020-08-03, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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2020-08-03, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread
I was just going to say Implosion didn't really have splash-radius like that, but thought it might in OotS if Rich thought it looked cool. Here was kind of vague because noone hit by it was that close to anyone else. But now that I looked it up their swords don't implode with them. But good call on noticing the table and the chair don't distort, so it's not some gravity-based effect of being near an Implosion. It's internally consistent.
"Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman
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2020-08-03, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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