OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[The Pilgrim]

Time to roll a Fortitude Saving Throw, Durkon.

[archaeo]

First, there was a beat panel after Redcloak cast Implosion, and we see the effect. It's too late for a saving throw or counterspell or what have you. I think Durkon is going to die.

Given that it’s a fortitude save, maybe we should expect Durkon to have to visibly work to counteract the spell in the next page?

Killing Durkon off here would be a pretty intense decision after spending several hundred strips on a quest to save him followed by him getting a literal Mission From God. Not out of the question! But a big move to make.

[Fyraltari]

But putting aside Redcloak's general stupidity here, burning a 9th-level slot just to make a point when he's about to dive into more epic-level dungeons puts his idiocy on a whole other level.

As others have said, once Redcloak rejects Durkon’s offer they are ennemies and, ever the pragmatic, he moves to take him and his team out of the picture in the most efficient way he can think of.

Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.

What other conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?

That Redclaok is a damaged individual who does more harm than good to his own cause. Redclaok is, at the end of the day, a sympathetic antagonist, not a hero. This will never end in him getting everything he wants.

First, there was a beat panel after Redcloak cast Implosion, and we see the effect. It's too late for a saving throw or counterspell or what have you. I think Durkon is going to die.

But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.

He’s looking at the ground, though. And Durkon would have a clear view of whatever Redclaok was seeing from this angle. And Redclaok does not look surprised in any way. And the table would give the lie to him immedialtely. I think this panel is simpmy Redclaok making his decision.

Hinjo: "You and what army? We couldn't defeat the goblins with the full might of the military, do you think your personal guard has any chance? It would take generations to build ourselves back up to any sort of strength where we could retake our homeland, and by that point we would be long dead and our people would see this island as their home, and Azure City as a place they've never known. Will your zeal be genetic?"

Sadly, while hatred and resentment aren’t genetics, they can easily be passed down to one’s children. If you want an example... *gestures broadly at everything*. Even in the best of cases, there will always be Azurites telling their kids that life was just so much better in Azure City and that [insert problem here] would never have happened if they hadn’t let these good-for-nothin’ greenies steak their ancestral homelands. And children growing up thinking that’s true.

[littlebum2002]

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

[The MunchKING]

And, after all that, I'm going to try one last, entirely-opposite-direction theory - the Implosion won't go off because TDO himself revokes the spell's power, as foreshadowed in the first panel here. This isn't my primary theory in part because I don't think that will happen yet, but I do think it will eventually happen.

I think that's talking about a Deity revoking spell-casting power for a Cleric. RAW as far as I know doesn't spell out whether a Cleric gets to keep the spells in their head until they cast them and just never gets to replenish his spells, or loses all spells provided by that God immediately, but either way; I think once he's cast the spell and it's gone off is a little to late for revoking spell-casting to mean anything.

[Ghosty]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."...

I don't think it subverts the trope at all. RedCloak isn't all goblins. His antisocial actions in no way should be attributed to all goblins. Those actions are a symbol of his flaws, not those of Goblinkind.

What does RC really want here? The goblins were created as a prey race, but there's no unringing that bell in this version of Stickworld. True, humans view them as XP fodder, but humans (and all other adventurers of any race, that care about XP) also view other humans that way. And kobolds, trolls, dragons, and the odd Tarrasque. I guess they could ask the Gods to tell their worshippers that killing a goblin is the same as killing any other sentient being that isn't currently threatening to kill them.

Is RC asking for that though? Further, how could he be sure the Gods won't go back on that concession, or any other concession they might grant now due to fear of the Snarl?

In the preceding strips, all I see from him is complaining about the hand they were dealt, and that they intend to hang onto Gobbotopia. Plus not believing that the Gods will torch Stickworld rather than let RC go through with the Plan. And that he seemed surprised and delighted that Durkon offered a peace treaty between the Azurites and the goblins. If he's expecting perpetual peace out of that, well good luck. Show me the human, or any other D&D racial group, that's ever been at perpetual peace with its neighbors.

It's too bad that RC can't go to the Astral Plane and see the Graveyard of Worlds for himself.

[TRH]

That wasn't a very common thing in 3rd edition, and I don't think the art supports it (Durkon would have to be casting Dispel Magic *now*. It's not super clear in the 3E rules how that works in terms of the action economy. Durkon would have had to have held an action to cast Dispel Magic as a counterspell. So the short answer is, Naah.)

To be fair, it's a lot more common in OOTS than it is at your average table. That said, it has hit Durkon, that much is clear. I don't think it's too late for the saving throw, but almost certainly too late to counterspell. People meant a counterspell from V or someone else, I'm pretty sure, but no reason to expect them to have caught up to Durkon already either.

Well that didn't work.

Why didn't Durkon bring up the whole "the Dark One won't survive to the next world" thing?

Why would Redcloak buy that, of all things? Honestly, I don't think he realizes that there's been more than two worlds, and Durkon has no evidence to support that claim. Without it, there's no way to support an argument that gods don't necessarily survive the transition from one world to the next.

[Etilworg]

Alignment is "the things we do"

Yes, first do the things, THEN get the aligment label .

You encounter a goblin in a dungeon, what is he doing? Usually evil things.

The problem is not that they have an aligment label, but that the dungeon master forgets to include goblins that are selling hydra w/gouda burgers, so USUALLY becomes ALWAYS in your eyes.

i will not touch real world events but if you only see one type of news, your world view is very skewed in that direction

No. It's DURKON-Destructive. And probably Foolish.

Also the Vampire Gaze where Roy Had Swirly eyes for a few panels before yelling "I can Multitask" was according to the Giant supposed to be showing that he made his save. So there is prescedent for the spell having a show of it's effects esp. if they're cool enough.

Domination effects can succed then give you a second saving throw "any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus."

[Dausuul]

It just occurred to me that if Durkon dies to this, the Order has no way to bring him back, not even if they went back to Hilgya and somehow convinced her to help again. Resurrection requires a piece of the body, and implosion won't leave any.

The only way to revive him would be true resurrection, and the only cleric in the vicinity who can cast that is Redcloak himself.

(On the plus side, true resurrection doesn't drain any levels, so Durkon won't get socked in the XP department any more than he already has.)

[The MunchKING]

To be fair, it's a lot more common in OOTS than it is at your average table.

I always liked Counterspelling, it's great if you know you're going up against casters, and if not Dispel Magic can do other stuff too.

[Squire Doodad]

Next page, first panel:

"...made my saving throw."

[Fyraltari]

However the Order/Durkon has never seen Redcloak use implosion, to gamble that he would use it here and counter it. I'm stumped.

Niu has and she reported back to Hinjo who contacted Haley back at the pyramid. Further discussion may have happened off-screen.

Well that didn't work.

Why didn't Durkon bring up the whole "the Dark One won't survive to the next world" thing?

A) the Dark One may not survive to the next world.
B) Why would Redcloak believe him?

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

Redclaok is looking the other way.

[understatement]

I would consider Belkar staking him as a Durkon death, since at that moment it was Durkon controlling the body completely.

Regardless, Durkon has died too many times and deserves a happy life with his son. Implosion is not the path.

I formally withdraw my statement, and I will put my picture on the "Hall of Theories that went bottom up" later.

Also, I'm pretty surprised that Redcloak's still packing a whole 9th level spell from a night of extensive dungeon crawling. In hindsight, I'm glad the Order didn't show up -- V, Haley, or Elan would have been killed instantaneously.

[Dausuul]

And one other thought: It's just possible that Durkon will, in his last moments, announce his devotion to the Dark One.

If he can do it with enough conviction to make it stick, that would allow him to speak directly to TDO and deliver Thor's message.

(Edit: To be clear, I don't think this is likely. I'm betting that the next panel will feature Durkon announcing that he made his saving throw. But it would make a heck of an interesting twist.)

[Squire Doodad]

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

Who else would he be shooting at? Xykon's not in town, and it'd be poor form to show his acceptance of peace by blowing up Oona. There could be someone off-screen, but I don't see anything to indicate that, let alone something that would be better depicted by Implosion over, say, Hold Person.


...is it possible for RC to interrupt his spell and leave Durkon with heavy damage instead of death?

[Fyraltari]

I formally withdraw my statement, and I will put my picture on the "Hall of Theories that went bottom up" later.

Also, I'm pretty surprised that Redcloak's still packing a whole 9th level spell from a night of extensive dungeon crawling. In hindsight, I'm glad the Order didn't show up -- V, Haley, or Elan would have been killed instantaneously.

The fact that this is the morning and therefore Redcloak has rested probably helps.

[understatement]

The fact that this is the morning and therefore Redcloak has rested probably helps.

He's Evil; he gets his spells at dusk.

[Fyraltari]

He's Evil; he gets his spells at dusk.

Isn’t that just for the undead?

Also for everybody suggesting that Durkon is just caught in the area of a spell targeted at somebody else: his chair isn’t affected. It’s targeted at him.

[masonwheeler]

Redcloak's own brother is the counter to this argument. Right-Eye was given a choice, and he chose to turn his back on The Plan and try to make a better life for his own people.

...and we all know how that turned out for him.

It's Redcloak, personally, who is making an evil choice here. Your observation about his self-justifying behavior is entirely correct, but it's an observation about the character of Redcloak, not about all goblinkind.

To one degree, yes. On the other hand, the comic can't be about all the goblins individually because there are simply too many of them, so the characters it focuses on are all we have to go by. And the picture we see is a society where, while they may talk a good game, those that try to actually improve things rather than simply being Evil for Evil's sake get pulled down by more powerful goblins.

To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.

[prism6691]

Niu has and she reported back to Hinjo who contacted Haley back at the pyramid. Further discussion may have happened off-screen.

But even if they were to counter Implosion with wind walk, the transition takes 5 rounds. Hes not gaseous, unless under an illusion and with Elan and V not being aware of this gambit to prepare an illusion before hand, Im at a loss for what spell would be creating the illusion that a Cleric could cast.

[Ranzear]

Oh.

Ooooh.

I get it.

Spoiler

Show

How else is Durkon gonna talk to Thor again about the agreement? RC is just being ... expedient.

[Fyraltari]

...and we all know how that turned out for him.



To one degree, yes. On the other hand, the comic can't be about all the goblins individually because there are simply too many of them, so the characters it focuses on are all we have to go by. And the picture we see is a society where, while they may talk a good game, those that try to actually improve things rather than simply being Evil for Evil's sake get pulled down by more powerful goblins.

To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.

What are you saying? That the goblins have to prove they deserve not to be shot on sight before that’s considered a bad thing? Because that seems backwards for me.

Beside we’ve seen successful peaceful co-existence alongside humans (at least at a distance) twice.

[Pax_Chi]

Sadly, Redcloak failing to listen to reason and attacking Durkon is exactly what I expected.

Yep. You've got to give Durkon credit, he gave it a genuine effort, argued in good faith, used no intimidation and relied solely on appeals to reason, trying to make a situation where everyone benefits, even if they aren't all exactly happy.

Sadly, by trying to bring things down to a mortal level and discuss things without the gods involved, Durkon left out his biggest bargaining chip: The Dark One's own existence. As stated, the Dark One might not survive to the next world because he doesn't have enough "divine inertia" so to speak, not enough belief to let him survive the rebuilding of the world. If Durkon had brought that up, Red Cloak likely would have had to at least try to communicate that with his god for further information.

Red Cloak and the Dark One don't realize that they stand to lose more than just this world, they stand to lose the only god the goblins have and any potential of being on an equal footing. So sealing the Snarl is not only the best for everyone involved, NOT sealing the Snarl is basically suicide for the Dark One and oblivion for all of the goblins.

But I think Durkon avoided bringing that up (assuming he didn't just forget) because he wanted to win Red Cloak over from a purely (for lack of a better term) humanitarian argument. He wanted to show that the mortal races could achieve equality themselves through hard work, negotiations, diplomacy and patience. And Red Cloak is in a unique position thanks to his long life to help shape the destiny of his people for the better, live long enough to see it happen.

In essence, Durkon wanted to convince Red Cloak to work with him solely out of what would be best long term for the goblin people without hanging any threat over their heads that the goblins didn't already know about (ie, the gods destroying the world, the gate over Goblintopia, etc.). Because Durkon is a good person.

Unfortunately, as pointed out here . . .

It's worse than that. Someone earlier in this thread was absolutely correct when they stated that Redcloak is indeed an incarnation of the sunk cost fallacy.

Spoiler

Show

Redcloak: Throw away lives? How dare you?! Every goblin that has died since I've been high priest has been to further the Plan! Their deaths were a necessary sacrifice! They were not my fault!

Right-Eye: Wait... that's it, isn't it? It's all about whose fault it is... If I kill Xykon now, then it was all a waste. You ordered goblins to their deaths believing in the Plan--so if we abandon it now, then you were wrong. You let them die for nothing. You're willing to throw good lives after bad so that you don't have to admit that we were wrong to work with Xykon in the first place, much less help him cheat death.

Redcloak: Look, it's too late to turn back from the Plan! We made our deal with the devil years ago, now we just have to ride it out to the end.

Redcloak is so far down the slippery slope at this point he's almost hit the bottom. Killing a deity's ambassador is just the final step.

. . . Red Cloak is not. Red Cloak is, at the end of the day, incapable of taking responsibility for any actions that don't make him look or feel good.

Everything he's done for decades has been for "The Plan". If success is gained through any means other than "The Plan", then he'll always have to ask himself if the cost for success was great because he stuck to a plan that was never going to work.

Honestly, at this point, if Red Cloak was directly told by his own god to knock it off, forget the plan and work with the Order to save the world, Red Cloak might honestly REFUSE to do so, because the Plan has to work. He might defy even his god because the god isn't doing what Red Cloak has convinced himself needs to happen.

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

Redcloak's own brother is the counter to this argument. Right-Eye was given a choice, and he chose to turn his back on The Plan and try to make a better life for his own people.

It's Redcloak, personally, who is making an evil choice here. Your observation about his self-justifying behavior is entirely correct, but it's an observation about the character of Redcloak, not about all goblinkind.

While I do think that a fictional race can serve whatever purpose the creator wishes and that there's nothing inherently wrong or racist with an "always evil species" as D&D defines it, Dausuul is definitely correct in that Rich does not endorse that idea. He'd in no way want to put forth the idea that "it was the goblins own fault all along because they ARE all irredeemably evil", because he vehemently opposes that idea.

What we've seen from the goblins in Rich's setting is that they have just as much capacity to have free will, be rational, work with others and are effectively just humans with green skin, pointy ears and fangs. As a species, in Rich's world there's no reason why the goblins couldn't be a nation just as prosperous and respected as any human, elf or dwarf territory, apart from the racism of other nations.

So as a whole, in the OotS setting, this definitely isn't a case for the goblins being irredeemably evil.

It is, however, a strong case for Red Cloak to be irredeemably evil by this point. Because, as masonwheeler mentioned, every time Red Cloak has the chance to do something that will get the goblins the equality he claims to want, he does something evil, treacherous, underhanded and selfish.

Because it's no longer about making sure the goblins get equality. It's about making sure the goblins get equality in the way HE wants, that HE'S worked for, because it's the only way to absolve HIS guilt.

In a very Star Wars / Darkside of the Force way, Red Cloak has gone from thinking about his people to thinking only about himself.

[isamaru]

Durkon might or might not make the saving throw (I'm leaning towards thinking that he'll do), but either way we're not given enough information to say that conclusively.
It makes sense to show the effects in either case: while a character's fortitude might save them from destructive pressures, but they still pull at them.
Just like one could still draw a (subtler) reaction on receiving damage when making a successful concentration check instead of a no-sell.

Anyway, opening with a fort save spell against a dwarf cleric is rather weak. Looking at cleric spell list, it still looks like the best surprise move, IMHO.

[TRH]

...and we all know how that turned out for him.

To one degree, yes. On the other hand, the comic can't be about all the goblins individually because there are simply too many of them, so the characters it focuses on are all we have to go by. And the picture we see is a society where, while they may talk a good game, those that try to actually improve things rather than simply being Evil for Evil's sake get pulled down by more powerful goblins.

To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.

Do you generalize every society/group you encounter by the individuals you happen to know the best? Just within this story, that would obligate us to write off the Empires of Blood, Sweat and Tears. And Greysky City, since we only really met the Thieves' Guild. And...

[negentropic]

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

Riffing off of that: Could Redcloak be casting Implosion on himself? What if this is his way to get an audience with his god? Even if he wants to agree to Durkon's proposal, he probably cannot make a unilateral decision for the Dark One. And it was recently mentioned that he has never actually talked to him, so we can assume that TDO doesn't answer spells like Commune or Divine Guidance to facilitate something like this. So this could just be a somewhat extreme measure to get some immediate face-to-larger-and-glowing-face time to discuss these urgent matters.

[DLcygnet]

Well, hey! You know what Implosion is? A level 9 spell.
Is that enough for Thor to do what's needed to bind the snarl?

If so, now we can get back to the epic battle brewing between the order and Xykon.

Bye Durkon! Another honorable death in the bag.

[TRH]

But even if they were to counter Implosion with wind walk, the transition takes 5 rounds. Hes not gaseous, unless under an illusion and with Elan and V not being aware of this gambit to prepare an illusion before hand, Im at a loss for what spell would be creating the illusion that a Cleric could cast.

Not that Durkon could cast it, but Miracle.

[The MunchKING]

Isn’t that just for the undead?

Also for everybody suggesting that Durkon is just caught in the area of a spell targeted at somebody else: his chair isn’t affected. It’s targeted at him.

I was just going to say Implosion didn't really have splash-radius like that, but thought it might in OotS if Rich thought it looked cool. Here was kind of vague because noone hit by it was that close to anyone else. But now that I looked it up their swords don't implode with them. But good call on noticing the table and the chair don't distort, so it's not some gravity-based effect of being near an Implosion. It's internally consistent.

[prism6691]

Not that Durkon could cast it, but Miracle.

Ah well, if we are going for things that no one can cast, Contingent Resurrection would also work