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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DLcygnet View Post
    Well, hey! You know what Implosion is? A level 9 spell.
    Is that enough for Thor to do what's needed to bind the snarl?
    No. Thor doesn’t need Redcloak to cast any random 9th level spell at any random time, he needs him to take part in a precise ritual to give up a 9th-spell worth of certified Violet Energy to him (Thor) so that he can repurpose it.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by prism6691 View Post
    Ah well, if we are going for things that no one can cast, Contingent Resurrection would also work
    Well, that would save Durkon, sure, but I meant it can emulate any 7th level or lower spell, including whatever illusion spell you might want.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DLcygnet View Post
    Well, hey! You know what Implosion is? A level 9 spell.
    Is that enough for Thor to do what's needed to bind the snarl?
    No, it has to be a specific use of a 9th-level spell slot on a specific 9th-level ritual. That's been stated pretty clearly by Rich on here.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    He’s looking at the ground, though. And Durkon would have a clear view of whatever Redclaok was seeing from this angle. And Redclaok does not look surprised in any way. And the table would give the lie to him immedialtely. I think this panel is simpmy Redclaok making his decision.
    Yes, and before Redcloak was looking at the ground he was looking in Durkon's direction and made an odd expression. Hence why I called out "during Durkon's last line."
    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    It just occurred to me that if Durkon dies to this, the Order has no way to bring him back, not even if they went back to Hilgya and somehow convinced her to help again. Resurrection requires a piece of the body, and implosion won't leave any.
    Really? Last time it was cast it seemed to leave a lot of the body. Just in a very messy state.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-08-03 at 10:31 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, well. This went as well as could be expected. I mean, this is basically the same thing I've been saying time and again for a while: this is an awful proposal. Durkon basically acknowledges that Gobbotopia as it is is not a viable solution to the goblinoids' problem, since its sitting under a Rift, and a huge crusade bait to boot. He also acknowledges that its limited recognition might not protect it from stubborn enemies. All he offers boils down to ”I'll try to talk with two guys who may agree to help or at least leave you alone, on condition that you release the slaves, give up on some of the land you occupy [he only promises that the Azurite will give up their claim to most of the land], and you'll do what we need you to do”. We know Redcloak (with his trauma-induced speciesism and whatnot) does not trust humans, we know his god does not trust the other gods, and as some posters have rightly pointed out, releasing the slaves and giving a foothold in the Southern Lands back to the Azurites would just give their enemies a bridgehead and means to bolster their numbers for later, should they choose to move against Gobbotopia (with the possible help of other crusaders).
    Redcloak (and Big Purple) would need some cosmic-level guarantee that they won't be double-crossed even if they are absolutely honest about their goals (which I'll assume to be the case for Big Purple until proven otherwise; RedcloakÂ… he has issues, but I strongly believes he still, at the very least, thinks he's honest), and Durkon offered no such thing (heck, he suggested they ought to mostly leave the gods out of the whole deal). Until such time as Big Purple will be absolutely certain the spot-welding businesss can work as a guarantee of that sort, the Plan is their only option.

    (
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.

    I also think Reddie will be bringing Durkon back, and there'll be a joke about him only being revived by Evil clerics.
    Unlikely as it is, I like that one.)

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I'm actually surprised at more than a few comments here.

    First, there was a beat panel after Redcloak cast Implosion, and we see the effect. It's too late for a saving throw or counterspell or what have you. I think Durkon is going to die.

    But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.
    I disagree. I think we needed to see plain and clear how lost Redcloak is to his sunk costs in the main strip in order to understand his character. We're not supposed to need the supplemental material to follow the comic, and Redcloak has never made his true motives as clear as he does here outside of the final scene in Start of Darkness.

    It's just pure selfishness. There's no strategy behind it, no greater purpose, no valid excuse at all. He's a villain, and we needed to see that unambiguously.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Some people want to love the villain without having to face the fact that villains are largely terrible people who do horrific things with deficient reasoning. Not on my watch.
    I'm not terribly happy about it, but that's how I think it is.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels.

    I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    That the goblins have to prove they deserve not to be shot on sight before that’s considered a bad thing?
    Zombies don't generally have to prove they deserve to be smote before people feel content to smite them - this is despite the fact that some zombies are intelligent decent people, the accepted default position is that they are mindless monsters.
    Maybe this should change but it is difficult when they keep forming hoards and attacking people.

    So it is with goblins - yes they might deserve better but then they would likely have to work towards better to get it.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Could Minrah be waiting around to do something to distract Redcloak while Durkon transitions to cloud form? Could they both be invisible, with the "Durkon" we're seeing being an illusion (or something similar) while the real Durkon is present to do any spellcasting necessary? I used such a gambit Back In The Day with an illusionist, but I don't know what options might be available now for a couple of clerics.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Isn’t that just for the undead?
    Nah it depends on what your God wants. SRD doesn't even set a hard time, Dawn and Dusk are just common choices that are fraught with symbolism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Really? Last time it was cast it seemed to leave a lot of the body. Just in a very messy state.
    Did it? In that strip, nor the one after, we never see the body of anyone that got Imploded after they were done Imploding.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    On which levels are Durkon and Redcloak right now, just in case the first went to the meeting without any extra protection?
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by bunsen_h View Post
    Could Minrah be waiting around to do something to distract Redcloak while Durkon transitions to cloud form? Could they both be invisible, with the "Durkon" we're seeing being an illusion (or something similar) while the real Durkon is present to do any spellcasting necessary? I used such a gambit Back In The Day with an illusionist, but I don't know what options might be available now for a couple of clerics.
    The chances that Durkon survives Implosion are less then Redcloak failing to see through an illusion.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus_C View Post
    Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels.

    I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.
    That could fit! He can cast True Resurrection. And Durkon would probably accept it. He looks conflicted, his answer wasn't no, but a not yet.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by masonwheeler View Post
    To put it bluntly, when people who hold a different opinion don't wield enough influence to make a difference... they don't really matter.
    Spoken like Redcloak himself. If you want to justify any kind of appallingly hideous act, step 1 is to come up with an excuse for why the victims of that act "don't matter."

    And that's all I have to say on this particular subject.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Plus_C View Post
    Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels.

    I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.
    if Xykon CARED he could Soul Bind Durkon's soul just as easily from Redcloak killing Durkon as if he did it.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by DougTheHead View Post
    I'm placing my bet on "Durkon was in gaseous Wind Walk form the whole time," both because it gives him a way to escape, and because it would give Redcloak the opportunity for a wisecrack along the lines of, "I knew your proposals were nothing but hot air, but I didn't expect the same to be true of you."
    Funny, but I don't think that the spells work like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhorn View Post
    If he cannot get the Dark One on board, then Red Cloak agreeing won't achieve anything, and him abandoning the current plan is just ensuring the destruction of goblin kind.
    Is that his PoV? They have their city and their land now, and Jirix has been given direct guidance not to go to war more but to trade and do diplomacy. See strip 704.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbragg View Post
    I....think it's a reference to John Mulaney's standup routine.
    OK. our meme as kids was "don't take candy from strangers." I am vaguley recalling something like what you refer to as stuff they taught my kids back in the 00s.
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
    The fate of Goblinkind has been presented as a major problem in the narrative and any happy ending will require a solution.
    Jirix has this as his life's work, now that he's come back from the dead. (And I do agree that "Goblins head off into the rifts neverland" doesn't seem to fit where Rich has been going.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Etilworg View Post
    No, RedCloak is evil, and you can not judge a race from the actions of one individual.
    Yep.
    Quote Originally Posted by masonwheeler View Post
    Perhaps, but every time the subject comes up, that's the point that actually gets made. Every time Redcloak has had an opportunity to take the high road and do better, he chooses not to.
    A lot of the context of Redcloak is, sadly, not in the on line strips but in a prequel (Start of Darkness).
    Quote Originally Posted by Dausuul View Post
    That Redcloak, personally, is an evil hypocrite who would murder
    Spoiler: Start of Darkness
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    his own brother
    to avoid having to admit that he was wrong.
    Yep. And Jirix is leaing a good chunk of goblin kind into another future ..
    There are goblins in OotS other than Redcloak.
    He's a classic example of a very old cartoon from about WW II (Willie and Joe, by Mauldin) where they are sitting in a fox hole. Willie is saying: "Joe, there's two kinds of people in this world. There's you, and there's everybody else." (I think that was a Mauldin, it might have been a different cartoon/comic I remember from waaaaaaay back when ....)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
    It's too bad that RC can't go to the Astral Plane and see the Graveyard of Worlds for himself.
    He is of high enough level to cast the Astral Projection spell, ins't he? He could go there, but then it's a matter of finding that spot ... I wonder if Durkon may suggest that at some point ...
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Yes, and before Redcloak was looking at the ground he was looking in Durkon's direction and made an odd expression. Hence why I called out "during Durkon's last line."
    That doesn’t really look like noticing something to me, more like perplexity.
    Also if that’s the case whatever is behind Durkon is taking their sweet-ass time to do anything which does not sound like Xykon at all. Redcloak would just order a bugbear to keep mum and any allynof Durkon isn’t going to tell on them to Mr Bones.

    Not to mention (again) the table and chair being obvious evidence of what was happening.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Zombies don't generally have to prove they deserve to be smote before people feel content to smite them - this is despite the fact that some zombies are intelligent decent people, the accepted default position is that they are mindless monsters.
    Maybe this should change but it is difficult when they keep forming hoards and attacking people.

    So it is with goblins - yes they might deserve better but then they would likely have to work towards better to get it.
    In the context of this comic and 3.5 generally, I have no idea what you're talking about. Zombies are explicitly mindless and have never said a word in this comic besides "brains." They don't have the soul of the person they used to be, and are simply corpses animated to move again by magic.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by negentropic View Post
    Riffing off of that: Could Redcloak be casting Implosion on himself? What if this is his way to get an audience with his god? Even if he wants to agree to Durkon's proposal, he probably cannot make a unilateral decision for the Dark One. And it was recently mentioned that he has never actually talked to him, so we can assume that TDO doesn't answer spells like Commune or Divine Guidance to facilitate something like this. So this could just be a somewhat extreme measure to get some immediate face-to-larger-and-glowing-face time to discuss these urgent matters.
    Why would he do that?
    I. Implosion is a ridiculously messy way of killing oneself. If he were to try and do that, he would have probably chosen something less flashy but more comfortable (relatively speaking, of course).
    II. As for Commune and the like, we don't know. He may not answer those (it happens (Thor, I'm looking at you)), that, however, is not an established fact. For all we know, Redcloak might not have tried that all that often (he's trying to give Big Purple his space, after all).
    III. This:
    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Redcloak can cast Gate, and we have seen the Exarch open one straight to Hel's domain, so I'd suppose he can go so far as to pay a visit (…) if he so chooses. How the Dark One would take that is anyone's guess, though.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Zombies don't generally have to prove they deserve to be smote before people feel content to smite them - this is despite the fact that some zombies are intelligent decent people, the accepted default position is that they are mindless monsters.
    Zombies CAN'T be intelligent if I'm remembering D&D rules correctly. If they were intelligent they would have raised as one of the other Undead types.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    Why would Redcloak buy that, of all things? Honestly, I don't think he realizes that there's been more than two worlds, and Durkon has no evidence to support that claim. Without it, there's no way to support an argument that gods don't necessarily survive the transition from one world to the next.
    It's worse than that. The claim that the Dark One won't survive appears to contradict his main point. Durkon's argument is that the Gods will destroy the world to save themselves.

    What's his argument about the Dark One supposed to be?

    "The gods will destroy this world so that they can all live and create another one. They'll all live safely tha way. Except foh the Dark One, he'll die if they do that. Because what's safe for the rest of them is deadly to him. By the way, while we're here would you care to learn a card game called Fizbin?"

    Durkon is skipping the argument that would inevitably be dismissed as a clumsy lie, because he wants to be taken seriously and have his offers be treated as genuine.

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    ...Welp.

    Honestly, this is very different from some of Redcloak’s other kills(whether or not this one was successful or not). When he had Thanh killed he ordered the elemental holding him to crush him; he was past the point where crushing paladins was really satisfying and he wasn’t going to take risks gloating anyways. When he had Tsukiko killed he had her own wights drain her to death, which was almost certainly in part due to very much due to not liking her one bit, to put it lightly.

    Just before he casts Implosion here he looks almost reluctant. He wasn’t totally unwilling to listen to Durkon here... it’s just that the good of goblinoids was never his only motivation for doing this. And he’s pragmatic enough to try and end this as soon as possible with as much power he can manage.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TRH View Post
    In the context of this comic and 3.5 generally, I have no idea what you're talking about. Zombies are explicitly mindless and have never said a word in this comic besides "brains." They don't have the soul of the person they used to be, and are simply corpses animated to move again by magic.
    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    Zombies CAN'T be intelligent if I'm remembering D&D rules correctly. If they were intelligent they would have raised as one of the other Undead types.
    It seems some people are not familiar with the Awaken Undead spell.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    Zombies don't generally have to prove they deserve to be smote before people feel content to smite them - this is despite the fact that some zombies are intelligent decent people, the accepted default position is that they are mindless monsters.
    Maybe this should change but it is difficult when they keep forming hoards and attacking people.

    So it is with goblins - yes they might deserve better but then they would likely have to work towards better to get it.
    I am kind of amazed that you are reading this comic when you apparently disagree with its core message that you don’t get to judge people by race. You only get to fight someone when they are actively harming yourself or somebody else not a moment sooner.

    The idea that someone has to prove to be deserving of life is nothing less than sickening.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    It seems some people are not familiar with the Awaken Undead spell.
    Unsurprising, considering it's not in the SRD. Do tell us where it can be found and why it's so common as to make non-mindless zombies worthy of consideration.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by prism6691 View Post
    That could fit! He can cast True Resurrection. And Durkon would probably accept it. He looks conflicted, his answer wasn't no, but a not yet.
    I vaguely remember that we have it on good authority (which is to say, the Giant's) that True Ressurection is too much of a gamebreaker, and thereby it won't ever be used in the comic.

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    Last edited by Metastachydium; 2020-08-03 at 10:49 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I vaguely remember that we have it on good authority (which is to say, the Giant's) that True Ressurection is too much of a gamebreaker, and thereby it won't ever be used in the comic.
    I thought it was just "would never give it to the protagonists".
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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I vaguely remember that we have it on good authority (which is to say, the Giant's) that True Ressurection is too much of a gamebreaker, and thereby it won't ever be used in the comic.

    (EDIt: Just levelled up to Dwarf. Yay.)
    Regular Resurrection works too if Implosion leaves remains.
    Last edited by prism6691; 2020-08-03 at 10:50 AM.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    It's worse than that. The claim that the Dark One won't survive appears to contradict his main point. Durkon's argument is that the Gods will destroy the world to save themselves.

    What's his argument about the Dark One supposed to be?

    "The gods will destroy this world so that they can all live and create another one. They'll all live safely tha way. Except foh the Dark One, he'll die if they do that. Because what's safe for the rest of them is deadly to him. By the way, while we're here would you care to learn a card game called Fizbin?"

    Durkon is skipping the argument that would inevitably be dismissed as a clumsy lie, because he wants to be taken seriously and have his offers be treated as genuine.
    Honestly, given the lack of evidence we've seen ourselves about that, I'm still not happy with it as a plot point in general. It seems like it's just there to add urgency to what Durkon is doing, but that's not necessary when they never found a way to resolve the problem that destroying this world will still condemn the dwarves to eternal torture and empower Hel to cause more trouble. In fact, bringing it up has made her entire plan more questionable, which undermines the entire previous arc. So yeah, really not a fan of leaning on that point even further, and don't get why others are so fixated on it as a trump card in this debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    It seems some people are not familiar with the Awaken Undead spell.
    Yes, because comparing a species of sentient beings with a category of creatures that require a 7th level spell from a splatbook Rich is almost certainly disregarding just to be able to talk is definitely not straining an analogy to the breaking point. This comic isn't into humanizing undead in general, in contrast to goblinoids and other living races. Otherwise they could have introduced a good guy (or neutral guy) vampire last book.
    Last edited by TRH; 2020-08-03 at 10:51 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #180
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2011

    Default Re: OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    New comic is up.
    Well I hope he rolls a good fort save. At least as a cleric he has a nice + to it... so it is within reach.

    I'm going to vote that the last panel does not indicate success yet... and for story it doesn't succeed.

    Then what... well, that's harder to say.

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