OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[Emanick]

Depends on how you define short-term. Hinjo does mention his intent to do so in #502, "when we've found allies and built our forces back up." Vague, but hardly sounds like a generations-long project or anything. For him to agree not to do that, which Redcloak would certainly insist on committing to paper, and being bound to that by his honor as a paladin would almost certainly infuriate the nobility, especially if they're the least bit more impetuous than Hinjo himself. Real-life coups have been provoked by far less than this.

Oh, I'm with you on this being potential coup-material if it comes off poorly (assuming anyone actually wants Hinjo's position badly enough, which is far from certain - he doesn't have the most enviable job at the moment). That said, however, the chance to bring back thousands of slaves without having to give up anything material should be enough to sweeten the deal, assuming Hinjo is able to play his cards right. And since the Azurites no longer have much prospect of securing strong military allies, and the quickest way to build their forces back up is to acquire a sudden surge in population, I think the counterargument that Hinjo should be focused on taking back Azure City rather than signing this deal is likely to be a fairly weak one.

I vaguely remember that we have it on good authority (which is to say, the Giant's) that True Ressurection is too much of a gamebreaker, and thereby it won't ever be used in the comic.

(EDIt: Just levelled up to Dwarf. Yay.)

No, we don't have it on good authority that True Resurrection will never be used, just that The Giant doesn't like it and wishes it didn't exist. Haley implies here that it does at least exist in-universe.

Given Rich's attitude towards it, it does seem fairly likely that True Resurrection will never come into play, but I suppose it could always be used in a context where it doesn't wreck the story or ruin dramatic tension. In other words, there's no guarantee that we'll never see the spell used in-comic.

[Tvtyrant]

"“Rabbits have enough enemies as it is. They ought not to make more among themselves. A mating between free, independent warrens—what do you say?”

At that moment, in the sunset on Watership Down, there was offered to General Woundwort the opportunity to show whether he was really the leader of vision and genius which he believed himself to be, or whether he was no more than a tyrant with the courage and cunning of a pirate. For one beat of his pulse the lame rabbit’s idea shone clearly before him. He grasped it and realized what it meant. The next, he had pushed it away from him. The sun dipped into the cloud bank and now he could see clearly the track along the ridge, leading to the beech hanger and the bloodshed for which he had prepared with so much energy and care.

“I haven’t time to sit here talking nonsense,” said Woundwort."

Watership Down.

[Metastachydium]

I thought it was just "would never give it to the protagonists".

No, we don't have it on good authority that True Resurrection will never be used, just that The Giant doesn't like it and wishes it didn't exist. Haley implies here that it does at least exist in-universe.

Given Rich's attitude towards it, it does seem fairly likely that True Resurrection will never come into play, but I suppose it could always be used in a context where it doesn't wreck the story or ruin dramatic tension. In other words, there's no guarantee that we'll never see the spell used in-comic.

Found it.

True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

[Emphases mine.]

[dancrilis]

I am kind of amazed that you are reading this comic when you apparently disagree with its core message that you don’t get to judge people by race.

Not sure why you would think I disagree with that.

You only get to fight someone when they are actively harming yourself or somebody else not a moment sooner.

So the fighter who sees a zombie on the road and attacks as it mindlessly* wanders around is in the wrong - I would generally agree with that.

Unsurprising, considering it's not in the SRD. Do tell us where it can be found and why it's so common as to make non-mindless zombies worthy of consideration.

Libris Mortis - a useful assist when talking about the undead.

Why are they worthy of consideration?
Because you perhaps shouldn't kill innocent people on the assumption that they might be dangerous or because they look dangerous - just because of the chance of that 1 time in a billion you are wrong.

[King of Nowhere]

ouch. i had better hopes for redcloak. the deal was good. it was everything he could ask for, and it would have been a fair deal.

but in the immortal words of sam vimes, "just because he's a member of an oppressed minority, it doesn't mean he can't be a vicious little bugger"

[Qzin]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

[One Skunk Todd]

Do you think Xykon overhead this conversation? Does he see the gates as a path to becoming a god himself? What does he even want at this point? Besides not being bored and not dying?

[Fyraltari]

Not sure why you would think I disagree with that.

Reading up thread I think I got you mixed up with masonwheeler. My apologies.

[KorvinStarmast]

Bye Durkon! Another honorable death in the bag.

He's got the hat trick if he fails the Fortitude save.

Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels. I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.

Sure, why not?

And he’s pragmatic enough to try and end this as soon as possible with as much power he can manage.

Yeah, me mentions his drive for efficiency to Xykon before they headed into the rift's door (when MiTD marked extras after the battles within) and in 826/827.

[Metastachydium]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

„Why would he do that?
I. Implosion is a ridiculously messy way of killing oneself. If he were to try and do that, he would have probably chosen something less flashy but more comfortable (relatively speaking, of course).
II. As for Commune and the like, we don't know. He may not answer those (it happens (Thor, I'm looking at you)), that, however, is not an established fact. For all we know, Redcloak might not have tried that all that often (he's trying to give Big Purple his space, after all).
III. This:

Redcloak can cast Gate, and we have seen the Exarch open one straight to Hel's domain, so I'd suppose he can go so far as to pay a visit (…) if he so chooses. How the Dark One would take that is anyone's guess, though.

”

[Ghosty]

...He is of high enough level to cast the Astral Projection spell, ins't he? He could go there, but then it's a matter of finding that spot ... I wonder if Durkon may suggest that at some point ...

Didn't Thor have to do some incantation in order for the Graveyard to be visible? So even though RC can jaunt to the Astral Plane, he'd never find it without a God's assist? And I doubt the Dark One knows about it.

[baculus224]

If I may be meta for a moment... Rich has talked in the past about Resurrection being a huge pain in terms of making risks feel like risks. Killing the party's cleric (or at least, the only one capable of casting resurrection) isn't a bad way to set the stakes for this final battle. Anyone goes down, they stay down.

Of course, there's also the possibility of V coming in and counterspelling the Implosion. Though based on the beat panel when Durkon starts to implode, I think the spell already succeeded. Looks like Durkon's taking his rightful place as "most killed member of the Order".

[Brutalitops]

I'
And, after all that, I'm going to try one last, entirely-opposite-direction theory - the Implosion won't go off because TDO himself revokes the spell's power, as foreshadowed in the first panel here. This isn't my primary theory in part because I don't think that will happen yet, but I do think it will eventually happen.

I would be shocked and amazed if that happened. If the big twist was that the dark one is not consumed by vengeance but redcloak is and the dark one wants a better life for the goblins.

That would be unlikely but I could see that twist. If the dark one is ready to negotiate but redcloak is not.

[TRH]

Oh, I'm with you on this being potential coup-material if it comes off poorly (assuming anyone actually wants Hinjo's position badly enough, which is far from certain - he doesn't have the most enviable job at the moment). That said, however, the chance to bring back thousands of slaves without having to give up anything material should be enough to sweeten the deal, assuming Hinjo is able to play his cards right. And since the Azurites no longer have much prospect of securing strong military allies, and the quickest way to build their forces back up is to acquire a sudden surge in population, I think the counterargument that Hinjo should be focused on taking back Azure City rather than signing this deal is likely to be a fairly weak one.

Well, I agree he can and probably will end up finessing it. Honestly, I mostly just wanted to express my low opinion of the perspective and vision of the Azurite nobility, as illustrated by Kubota and those others who withheld their forces. That guy made Nale seem like a humble and unpretentious master of long-term thinking.

Hm. Actually, that's kind of a plot consideration that never came up. The surviving Azurite military is probably disproportionately comprised of the soldiers loyal to the deserting daimyos. That should make Hinjo's position even more precarious than what we saw, honestly.

[ZiggyGuy]

Sorry but, can someone give me the whole description of "Implosion"?
Don't have my books with me (long story) and I've seena fort save mentioned, but... I don't remember the spell having such, and the ones I find online don't have it either...

I -am- rusty on my 3.5 having played only 5e for a couple years, my group is all newbies :3c

[Metastachydium]

If I may be meta for a moment... Rich has talked in the past about Resurrection being a huge pain in terms of making risks feel like risks. Killing the party's cleric (or at least, the only one capable of casting resurrection) isn't a bad way to set the stakes for this final battle. Anyone goes down, they stay down.

Of course, there's also the possibility of V coming in and counterspelling the Implosion. Though based on the beat panel when Durkon starts to implode, I think the spell already succeeded. Looks like Durkon's taking his rightful place as "most killed member of the Order".

All Counterspells we've seen so far intercepted the spell, well, counterspelled mid-air, with the two spellcasting-aura-things adjoining.

[archaeo]

Yep. And Jirix is leaing a good chunk of goblin kind into another future ..

Is he? In the last panel I remember seeing him in, he crushes one of the evil bugs with a rather sinister expression on his face, and the conclusion I drew wasn’t that he was a beneficent leader of Goblinkind whose rule would lead to peace among the peoples of the South. Maybe I misread it.

I actually really liked someone’s earlier point that this is a necessary plot beat to drive home Redcloak’s actual evil nature, but I also think that some of that material is going to have to get recapped anyway, since the MitD will almost certainly swallow Redcloak whole (or somehow be prevented/prevent himself from doing so) and it’s not very satisfying for the author to fire one of Chekov’s Guns without letting everyone know they loaded it in the prequel.

Either way, it’s a key bit of characterization headed into the endgame—Redcloak isn’t the sympathetic leader of a benighted species, he’s actually a very clever example of a villain with a very sympathetic backstory whose character arc is about how the villain’s acts have become entirely about himself and not his sympathetic goals. If redemption is possible, it’ll require a lot more than shaking hands over a stone table, and it’ll be more climactic than all this.

[dancrilis]

Sorry but, can someone give me the whole description of "Implosion"?
Don't have my books with me (long story) and I've seena fort save mentioned, but... I don't remember the spell having such, and the ones I find online don't have it either...

I -am- rusty on my 3.5 having played only 5e for a couple years, my group is all newbies :3c

You can see it here.

Implosion
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One corporeal creature/round
Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.

The Giant likely have little wiggle room by RAW (but some), but he has a lot of wiggle room narratively.


Edit:

Reading up thread I think I got you mixed up with masonwheeler. My apologies.

No worries - those of us who don't use avatars are easy to mixup.

[MrConsideration]

"Oh man, who would've thought that the scorpion would sting me just as I'm swimming across the river?"

I'm hoping that, even though Redcloak rejects Durkon's offer now, he will remember it before the end.

[TRH]

Didn't Thor have to do some incantation in order for the Graveyard to be visible? So even though RC can jaunt to the Astral Plane, he'd never find it without a God's assist? And I doubt the Dark One knows about it.

There's a barrier Thor had to open a hole in, but I don't think it impaired visibility, necessarily. And I don't know if you need to be a god to open it, although that's not unlikely. Otherwise, I'd say the Dark One almost certainly does not know about it, because I'm assuming he and everyone who learned of the rifts from him knows no more than we did before the jaunt with Thor, which includes the implicit assumption that the current world is the first one the gods created to contain the Snarl.

[NLM]

"We'll just go about our daily business, and you can hide from the horrifying truth of what you've become - namely, a murderer who just killed his baby brother in cold blood. And hey, we can both pretend that you don't really have any options about any of the despicable actions I ask you to take from here on out - rather than, acknowledging that, like, Right-Eye, you do in fact have a choice. But unlike Right-Eye there, you're too chicken**** to ever make it.

You'll obey me forever now, because I give you an excuse for your inexcusable behavior."

[dancrilis]

Spoiler: SOD

Show

"We'll just go about our daily business, and you can hide from the horrifying truth of what you've become - namely, a murderer who just killed his baby brother in cold blood. And hey, we can both pretend that you don't really have any options about any of the despicable actions I ask you to take from here on out - rather than, acknowledging that, like, Right-Eye, you do in fact have a choice. But unlike Right-Eye there, you're too chicken**** to ever make it.

You'll obey me forever now, because I give you an excuse for your inexcusable behavior."

You might want spoilers on that.

[The MunchKING]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

And nothing else around is effected?

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

When you've got 9th level spells, there are WAY easier ways to talk to your God. Gate being the most obvious one.

Didn't Thor have to do some incantation in order for the Graveyard to be visible?

There was some kind of shield thing around it. Thor describes it as a "little Barrier" so the Dark One could probably punch through if he wanted, but without knowing where it is, "infinity" is a big place to search.

Sorry but, can someone give me the whole description of "Implosion"?
Don't have my books with me (long story) and I've seena fort save mentioned, but... I don't remember the spell having such, and the ones I find online don't have it either...

I linked to it a few posts back, but the short version is "Fort Save or Die".

[ReaderAt2046]

I must stay, things like this make it very difficult to sympathize with Redcloak. Ever notice how, every time Redcloak whines about the plight of the goblins, their poor treatment at the hands of the Gods, and the way they're oh-so-deserving of equality, it's followed immediately by some horrifyingly Evil act on his part?

Rich is too good of a writer for this to be unintentional, so I can't help but wonder if he's setting it up deliberately to subvert the "everyone's deserving of equality" trope. Because virtually every time the subject's brought up, the very clear subtext is "regardless of the circumstances the goblins were created in, when they are given a choice, the decisions they make of their own free will demonstrate that they deserve it."

After what just happened I'm rooting for the success of the upcoming crusade!

There’s no possible way this is Burlew’s goal, nor is that subtext clear at all. If anything, “everyone’s deserving of equality” remains a central theme to the work, not something that Burlew’s trying to subvert. Redcloak is very obviously a character intended to complicate that theme, but there’s simply no way that Burlew is going to write an ending in which it turns out that, oops, in the end, everyone was right about those dastardly goblins.

There's a quote from the Discworld that I think applies nicely here: "Be generous, Sir Samuel. Truly treat all men equally. Allow [[goblins]] the right to be scheming bastards." Making the goblins Always Evil monsters that are incapable of goodness and can be killed without remorse is wrong, but making them nothing more than persecuted victims who are incapable of making their own choices is still racist, just more subtly so. Redcloak is Evil because he chooses to be Evil, exactly like Hilgya or Tarquin or Daimyo Kubota, and I think that's exactly what the Giant is trying to illustrate here.

[Mandor]

I'm pretty sure this is why we haven't seen Minrah yet.
I think her job is to be backup. If it all goes badly, bring his remains back to a safe spot and then Raise him. Either via her own spells if she can, or via Scroll or other magic item if not.

On the other hand. We're only seeing the spell START to take effect.
We were not actually shown Durkon collapsing inward to a squashed ball of gore.

I mean, maybe, if Wind Walk is still in effect, he can shift to gas form, and let the implosion super-compress his gaseous state, and expand back out, no worse for the wear.
Kinda hoping for that actually, Durkon's taken several deaths to the face lately.

But I do think Minrah is the recovery team.

[Nokao]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

That would be amazing !

[TRH]

I haven't really commented on the strip, have I?

Well, I can't say I'm surprised. It's too early in the book for Redcloak to turn on everything he's spent his life working towards, to say nothing of how out of character it would be for him to break his sunk cost decision loop so easily. People suggested having Xykon appear to disrupt the negotiations, but that also seems like it'd force too much, too early, and Durkon's chances of escaping him alive would be close to nil, even if the lich heard nothing to make him turn on Redcloak then and there. I think Durkon will survive and escape, but after that, I'm not sure, since the Order isn't interested in challenging the Gate's defenses on the one hand, but on the other can't afford to just sit around and wait for Team Evil to finish their work. I guess they'll be busy pursuing the mystery of the disembodied speech bubbles in the meantime, and I still have no clue where that leads.

[gerryq]

I stand corrected, though it doesn’t much change my point. The fate of Goblinkind has been presented as a major problem in the narrative and any happy ending will require a solution. Since I have enough faith in Burlew to believe he’s not planning on shipping them all off to the planet in the rifts and calling it a job well done, I’m very interested to see how he wraps it up.

I can think of worse solutions. Assuming that planet becomes available for habitation. It may be too much of an *easy* solution, but at the same time I did not think of it.

And that planet IS a Chekov's Gun of some sort.

[Malfarian]

At one point I wondered why Minrah would really hang around, and go on the adventure. I should have realized then. You don't pack an extra cleric unless you'll need them.

[Dausuul]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

If that's what's happening, how is Redcloak planning to get back? Even if I'm wrong about implosion and it does leave resurrectable remains, the only person around who could do it is Durkon, and for Redcloak to put that much trust in his enemy would be wildly out of character.