OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[TRH]

I can think of worse solutions. Assuming that planet becomes available for habitation. It may be too much of an *easy* solution, but at the same time I did not think of it.

And that planet IS a Chekov's Gun of some sort.

It would solve a lot of problems at once. And honestly, I think that's exactly what's wrong with it, since it removes the need for hard work in trying to mend goblin-humanoid relations after generations of blood and enmity.

[bunsen_h]

Given the parameters of the lingering Wind Walk spell, could Durkon shift back to cloud form quickly enough to avoid being killed by the Implosion? Assuming that no other effects are brought into play?

[rgrekejin]

...maybe the next strip opens with a pink counterspell?

That wasn't a very common thing in 3rd edition, and I don't think the art supports it (Durkon would have to be casting Dispel Magic *now*. It's not super clear in the 3E rules how that works in terms of the action economy. Durkon would have had to have held an action to cast Dispel Magic as a counterspell. So the short answer is, Naah.)

That's why I specified a pink counterspell. Durkon's magic is blue-white. Pink implies the arrival of V (and probably the rest of the order).

[TRH]

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

If that's what's happening, how is Redcloak planning to get back? Even if I'm wrong about implosion and it does leave resurrectable remains, the only person around who could do it is Durkon, and for Redcloak to put that much trust in his enemy would be wildly out of character.

Yeah, if Redcloak wanted to go ask the Dark One a question personally, Gate would be a less irrevocable and, well, less painful way to make that happen.

[DaFlipp]

So I don't think this is going to actually happen, but it'd be great if it did.

Step 1.) Rich ends on the cliffhanger depicted.

Step 2.) Rich trolls the forum to see how people speculate on ways Durkon could survive.

Step 3.) Rich tries to have as many of those turn out to be accurate as possible, just to embarrass Redcloak as much as possible.

"So wait, you're saying you still had Wind Walker running, you used a magic item to display an illusion of yourself, *and* you had Mass Death Ward up to negate instant-kill effect?!"

"An' I made me fortitude saving throw."

"OF COURSE YOU DID."

[Ranzear]

Following the discussion a little further, I think I can see RC's gameplan forming. It's a little of column A, and a little of column B. If RC is gonna move on this new option, he's gonna move fast.

Splat Durkon, cast Gate to follow him, have a nice chitchat with higher powers - and with less chance of intrusion - about what do to do prevent the end of the world. Hell, raising Durkon himself afterward doesn't even matter.

Is there some mechanic that helps target Gate to wherever Durkon ends up?

The only issue is narrative: It takes the adventurers out of the story, so of course there's gotta be another wrench thrown in.

[Fyraltari]

It would solve a lot of problems at once. And honestly, I think that's exactly what's wrong with it, since it removes the need for hard work in trying to mend goblin-humanoid relations after generations of blood and enmity.

Honestly, I’m half-expecting this planet to turn out to be settled by the victims of the Snarl and their descendants.

[Squire Doodad]

So I don't think this is going to actually happen, but it'd be great if it did.

Step 1.) Rich ends on the cliffhanger depicted.

Step 2.) Rich trolls the forum to see how people speculate on ways Durkon could survive.

Step 3.) Rich tries to have as many of those turn out to be accurate as possible, just to embarrass Redcloak as much as possible.

"So wait, you're saying you still had Wind Walker running, you used a magic item to display an illusion of yourself, *and* you had Mass Death Ward up to negate instant-kill effect?!"

"An' I made me fortitude saving throw."

"OF COURSE YOU DID."

To be fair, that is how the more successful min-maxers tend to end up if they saw something like this coming.

[archaeo]

I can think of worse solutions. Assuming that planet becomes available for habitation. It may be too much of an *easy* solution, but at the same time I did not think of it.

And that planet IS a Chekov's Gun of some sort.

Oh, the planet is a highly loaded gun, but I don’t think it’s going to be fired by making it into a goblin separatist colony. I doubt Burlew’s surfacing all these themes about equality if the story’s going to end with “And then speciesism was over because we sent all the green people to another world.”

It would indeed be too “easy” too. We’ll find out what’s happening with the planet, but I get the impression that it’s going to be something that makes the gods’ plans equally unworkable. There’s no way the story ends with the gods just finding a new way to lock the Snarl up—we’re going to deal with that thing for good, and it’ll happen because of the actions of the protagonists. That’s my hot take.

[FlawedParadigm]

...are we going to have to change his name to Kenny?

[Ranzear]

Googled an answer to my last post, which clarifies a lot for me:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

As a mode of planar travel, a gate spell functions much like a plane shift spell, except that the gate opens precisely at the point you desire (a creation effect). Deities and other beings who rule a planar realm can prevent a gate from opening in their presence or personal demesnes if they so desire.

RC has to splat Durkon to tell the gods to let him Gate over to have a chat. This might be the same deal with the Dark One, who also just might not let him Gate in whenever.

[negentropic]

I. Implosion is a ridiculously messy way of killing oneself. If he were to try and do that, he would have probably chosen something less flashy but more comfortable (relatively speaking, of course).
II. As for Commune and the like, we don't know. He may not answer those (it happens (Thor, I'm looking at you)), that, however, is not an established fact. For all we know, Redcloak might not have tried that all that often (he's trying to give Big Purple his space, after all).
III. This:

ad I: Whether Implosion is messy depends on whether you subscribe to the interpretation that it just causes the body to be compressed inward (big splat) or absorbed into some sort of singularity (big vorp). I've seen both interpretations in play, and AFAIK the source books are unfortunately never quite explicit enough in their description to make either definitely right. But from what we see in OOTS#826, I would lean towards the big vorp interpretation, since the guy who gets hit with Implosion in panel 6 leaves no remains (except for the sword, which he let go when the spell hit him) in panel 7. Collapsing into complete nothingness inside of three seconds doesn't seem like the most excruciating death, and not leaving a body behind might even be relevant in some way.

ad II: I don't know, a stance of "I'm not going to commune with my god before he sends me a divine vision, I don't want to appear too desperate," seems a bit strange to me. But that's just me, of course I cannot exclude the possibility. Maybe Redcloak even considered it usual that gods never directly speak to their clerics, prior to the exchange with Durkon.

ad III: That could work. If he knows where and on which plane the Dark One resides. And assuming the Dark One doesn't block planar travel into his domain. (Has either of these been established? I honestly cannot remember.) But I admit, I didn't consider this, and if he knows the location, at least trying to open a Gate there before resorting to self-implosion would have been prudent.

Still, I am by no means sure of the self-implosion theory. Especially since Implosion's visual distortion effect has apparently never been shown to affect anyone except the intended target of the spell. I guess I just don't like the idea of a fairly pragmatic, self-interested and somewhat rational character like Redcloak doing something so needlessly antagonistic in that situation. Even stringing Durkon (and by extension the gods) along to betray the agreement at the first opportunity would seem more reasonable to me. So I hope there will be at least some kind of reveal that recontextualizes this action, even if it is not this one.

[King of Nowhere]

But, more importantly than that, I think this is part of Redcloak's gambit. Given his facial expression on Durkon's last line, I think he realized something that we don't know or can't see yet. But I think he is killing Durkon strategically, and not as a refusal of breakdown in negotiations. I half expect the next comic to show Xykon coming across them, which forced Redcloak's hand to maintain the illusion for big X.

the Implosion won't go off because TDO himself revokes the spell's power

If the big twist was that the dark one is not consumed by vengeance but redcloak is and the dark one wants a better life for the goblins.

That would be unlikely but I could see that twist. If the dark one is ready to negotiate but redcloak is not.

Do you think Xykon overhead this conversation?

Uhm guys... it's probably just me, but I feel like Durkon is being warped because he is "near" to Redcloak - the real target of the implosion.

I think Redcloak just commited suicide to talk to the Dark One as we've learned they are not on speaking terms (usually).

Redcloak looks startled in one of the final panels.

I predict that Xykon is stood directly behind Durkon, and Redcloak is killing Durkon with the intention of raising him, because if Xykon does it he'll Soul Bind him.

so.... many... options!

i can't wait for the next comics to come out and clarify which is which!

[Fyraltari]

So, anyone willing to bet? If it turns out that Redclaok was not trying to kill Durkon and rejecting his deal, I’ll acknowledge that anyone who took me up on this was right and I’m guillible. Conversely if it turns out that Redclaok did try to kill Durkon and is rejecting his deal, anyone who takes me up on this will have to acknowledge that I was right and that they’re looking for subversions where they don’t belong.

Deal?

[Dausuul]

It would indeed be too “easy” too. We’ll find out what’s happening with the planet, but I get the impression that it’s going to be something that makes the gods’ plans equally unworkable. There’s no way the story ends with the gods just finding a new way to lock the Snarl up—we’re going to deal with that thing for good, and it’ll happen because of the actions of the protagonists. That’s my hot take.

I agree that this solution would be too easy. But I do wonder if perhaps everyone ends up getting relocated to the world inside the rift. The world of OotS is destroyed, but goblins and humans and elves and dwarves and everybody are dumped on that new empty world, and now they have to figure out how to live with each other.

...After thinking about it, that still seems too easy. A lot of this strip was about wrestling with the legacy of the past and its impact on the present (i.e., I own the good land today and Joe doesn't because my ancestor killed Joe's ancestor and took it), which is a big issue with real-world racism too. A reset where everyone starts over from scratch is too simple a shortcut. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

[ZiggyGuy]

You can see it here.

Right, I -am- rusty. Forgot the saving throw is up there, not in the description~!

[Jason]

This was the best deal Redcloak could have ever expected, and he turned it down because for him it really is his way or the highway. He may really care about the welfare of his race, but not as much as he cares about being right.
This was Redcloak's final chance at redemption, and he squandered it just as he has all of his other chances. He has proved that he really is a villain because of his choices, not because of his circumstances.

I am betting Durkon survives because he learned from his last death and did not come to the meeting unprepared or without an escape plan. Or alone, for that matter.

[dancrilis]

Honestly, I’m half-expecting this planet to turn out to be settled by the victims of the Snarl and their descendants.

That is one of my half theories also - and not merely the planet but all the planets that the Snarl took are the stars* (panel 15) in the sky in Snarlland.

*not actual stars.

[archaeo]

A big reset where everyone starts over from scratch is too simple a shortcut. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

No, I think your analysis is spot on, and there’s really no “overthinking” a topic this complicated. Indeed, Burlew’s gone to a lot of trouble to make it a real moral dilemma on all sides, to the point that I’ve been gripped by several pages of two characters talking back and forth over a table.

[danielxcutter]

To be fair, that is how the more successful min-maxers tend to end up if they saw something like this coming.

...I was going to nitpick that, but I’ve just realized that as far as min-maxing goes that would only be pointlessly redundant if the item in question had a range measured in miles.

[Emanick]

If that's what's happening, how is Redcloak planning to get back? Even if I'm wrong about implosion and it does leave resurrectable remains, the only person around who could do it is Durkon, and for Redcloak to put that much trust in his enemy would be wildly out of character.

I quoted you because you're the most recent person to bring up the issue (at least as of when I started writing this post), but I'm really addressing everyone who's expressed an opinion on the matter.

Implosion probably leaves resurrectable remains. Generally speaking, if a save-or-die spell throws up obstacles against resurrection, those obstacles are mentioned in the spell's text. There is no mention of the destruction of all bodily remains in Implosion's description.

I googled the question, and while I couldn't find an official ruling, most people did seem to believe that Implosion leaves behind remains.

[TRH]

This was the best deal Redcloak could have ever expected, and he turned it down because for him it really is his way or the highway. He may really care about the welfare of his race, but not as much as he cares about being right.
This was Redcloak's final chance at redemption, and he squandered it just as he has all of his other chances. He has proved that he really is a villain because of his choices, not because of his circumstances.

I am betting Durkon survives because he learned from his last death and did not come to the meeting unprepared or without an escape plan. Or alone, for that matter.

I was gonna say that yes, we know he came alone, but I just double-checked and Minrah is also missing. So maybe he didn't come alone. That said, I'm not sure what she can do to help Durkon here.

[The MunchKING]

RC has to splat Durkon to tell the gods to let him Gate over to have a chat. This might be the same deal with the Dark One, who also just might not let him Gate in whenever.

If THAT'S the case he probably should have told Durkon that was the plan ahead of time. Now Durkon wouldn't know he was supposed to do that.

ad II: I don't know, a stance of "I'm not going to commune with my god before he sends me a divine vision, I don't want to appear too desperate," seems a bit strange to me. But that's just me, of course I cannot exclude the possibility. Maybe Redcloak even considered it usual that gods never directly speak to their clerics, prior to the exchange with Durkon.

As far as we've seen I don't think any of them except Hel to Durkon* DID talk to their clerics at any point. We just a few prophecies from the prophecy Gods, and the rest is handled by deeds and/or extraplanar emissaries.

[TRH]

I agree that this solution would be too easy. But I do wonder if perhaps everyone ends up getting relocated to the world inside the rift. The world of OotS is destroyed, but goblins and humans and elves and dwarves and everybody are dumped on that new empty world, and now they have to figure out how to live with each other.

...After thinking about it, that still seems too easy. A lot of this strip was about wrestling with the legacy of the past and its impact on the present (i.e., I own the good land today and Joe doesn't because my ancestor killed Joe's ancestor and took it), which is a big issue with real-world racism too. A reset where everyone starts over from scratch is too simple a shortcut. But perhaps I'm overthinking it.

I just don't see what that would really contribute to the resolution. The problems of inter-species relations would still have to be worked through, just now in a different place, with all of the physical worldbuilding from the entire comic thrown into the garbage. Seems pointless.

[The MunchKING]

Implosion probably leaves resurrectable remains. Generally speaking, if a save-or-die spell throws up obstacles against resurrection, those obstacles are mentioned in the spell's text. There is no mention of the destruction of all bodily remains in Implosion's description.

I googled the question, and while I couldn't find an official ruling, most people did seem to believe that Implosion leaves behind remains.

I agree the spell doesn't say, but I kind of imagined that being SPLORCHED into a single point would leave very little remains, and so like Disintegrate would need Resurrection to fix rather than Raise Dead.

[TRH]

As far as we've seen I don't think any of them except Hel to Durkon* DID talk to their clerics at any point. We just a few prophecies from the prophecy Gods, and the rest is handled by deeds and/or extraplanar emissaries.

Someone had to notify everyone of the Godsmoot, so we can infer some communication there, at least.

[Fyraltari]

This was Redcloak's final chance at redemption

You are much more assured of that than I.

[gatemansgc]

and durkon is minus TWO levels from his resurrection plus the raise dead after hilgya flame struck him. not sure he's going to be able to roll high enough to resist such a high level spell D:

[Sloanzilla]

Roy was starting to be dominated when he made his save and resisted the domination. I could see that being a similar case here.

Outside chance of the Dark One himself intervening, however.

[Draconi Redfir]

well... Damn. thought things were going really well there, i was really enjoying the peace talks.

do wonder why Durkon never thought to mention the fact that the dark one wouldn't survive to the next world. you'd think that would be an important thing to bring up.