OOTS #1209 - The Discussion Thread

[Dausuul]

I quoted you because you're the most recent person to bring up the issue (at least as of when I started writing this post), but I'm really addressing everyone who's expressed an opinion on the matter.

I was the first person to bring up the issue, and I think other people may be going off my original statement that it doesn't leave remains, so you are addressing the right person. :)

Implosion probably leaves resurrectable remains. Generally speaking, if a save-or-die spell throws up obstacles against resurrection, those obstacles are mentioned in the spell's text. There is no mention of the destruction of all bodily remains in Implosion's description.

I googled the question, and while I couldn't find an official ruling, most people did seem to believe that Implosion leaves behind remains.

I was going off the previous uses of implosion we have seen in the comic, where character collapse into a gory mess that then (appears to) wink out into nothing. However, you make an excellent point that nothing in the spell description rules out the possibility of its leaving remains, and the default assumption is that spells leave remains unless otherwise stated.

It's likely to be a moot point, since I can't see how the Order would find whatever remains... uh... remain, or get them to a cleric who could make use of them in time. But, as far as the 3E rules go, I think you are right and I was mistaken.

[danielxcutter]

I agree the spell doesn't say, but I kind of imagined that being SPLORCHED into a single point would leave very little remains, and so like Disintegrate would need Resurrection to fix rather than Raise Dead.

Doesn’t Raise Dead need the corpse to be relatively intact? I hear that mutilating the body is good enough that soul-stealing weapons are considered inefficient even by the paranoid in Eberron or something like that.

[Emanick]

I agree the spell doesn't say, but I kind of imagined that being SPLORCHED into a single point would leave very little remains, and so like Disintegrate would need Resurrection to fix rather than Raise Dead.

Oh, definitely. The spell makes it pretty clear that the remains of an Implosion victim can't exactly be described as "whole," so Raise Dead almost certainly wouldn't work. There's a reason why I specified that save-or-die spells usually mention if they throw up obstacles against resurrection - there's far too many ways to prevent Raise Dead for every spell to mention that it makes the effect impossible.

Really, all you have to do is behead somebody in order to prevent raising, so even things like the DM's description of how a character dies can stop a cleric below 13th level from being able to raise someone. (Sure, that's kind of a jerk move for the DM to pull if the party is emotionally committed to bringing someone back and they don't have the resources for a 7th-level spell, but it's consistent with how DMs tend to describe combat in flavor terms, at least in my experience.)

[Edhelras]

Sure everyone said so already, but: He MUST get a Fortitude save!!!
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm

Oh great goodness, just let him get that save....

[negentropic]

Implosion probably leaves resurrectable remains. Generally speaking, if a save-or-die spell throws up obstacles against resurrection, those obstacles are mentioned in the spell's text. There is no mention of the destruction of all bodily remains in Implosion's description.

Do you happen to have any offhand example of a spell that does feature that kind of mention? Just for reference?

[Jason]

You are much more assured of that than I.

Trying to kill Durkon in a vicious manner right after he has offered him an olive branch sounds to me like a good candidate for a final rejection, but perhaps you're right that he might still have another, and take it. Maybe when he discovers what the Dark One really wants he'll finally turn against the Plan and try to destroy Xykon. If he does I don't see Redcloak as surviving the story, however. It will be a redemption=death situation. He's done too many evil deeds to receive a happy ending.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm putting my money on this being a "fake gunshot" trope. You know the one, like in Last Crusade where the mook is pointing a gun at Indy and you hear a gunshot and then Indy is looking for his wound only to find out that Marion, not the mook, fired the gun. I think the implosion was targeted at someone behind Durkon and the art is just showing him caught up on the effect since it's so close. Maybe someone was trying to kill Durkon and Redcloak is saving him.

I realize this isn't very likely, but it's something that no one has mentioned before, so I'm mentioning it now so I'll look really cool in the unlikely event that it happens.

If we're going for longshot predictions where Reddy isn't completely rejecting Durkon's terms, then I'm going to say he's looking down and spotted the demon-roaches, so he's killing Durkon to keep up the appearance that he was just toying with the PCs and is still on Xykon's side, but in truth plans to resurrect Durkon to continue the negotiations later.

[Wildstag]

Given the parameters of the lingering Wind Walk spell, could Durkon shift back to cloud form quickly enough to avoid being killed by the Implosion? Assuming that no other effects are brought into play?

It would take 5 rounds to change back and forth.

I'd kinda hoped RC would have changed somewhat concerning sunk-cost during the invasion, but apparently he's still very obstinate in that regard. Shame. If Redcloak wants immediate change, it might be best for him to go through with Thor's Plan, but on the condition that they still reset the world and create a new one where goblins are on equal footing. But that wouldn't happen in RC's lifetime, and he seems to want to live to see the change rather than put faith in it happening eventually (ironic given his whole class is about faith).

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Sure everyone said so already, but: He MUST get a Fortitude save!!!
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/implosion.htm

Oh great goodness, just let him get that save....

Or perhaps five. I'm hoping beyond hope that the probability of him making all five saves is one in a million...

[TRH]

Or perhaps five. I'm hoping beyond hope that the probability of him making all five saves is one in a million...

Implosion can only target the same creature once. If he saves, he is safe from this spell, and Redcloak would need to cast another to kill him.

[Emanick]

Do you happen to have any offhand example of a spell that does feature that kind of mention? Just for reference?

Sure. Compare disintegrate with destruction:

A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.

This spell instantly slays the subject and consumes its remains (but not its equipment and possessions) utterly. If the target’s Fortitude saving throw succeeds, it instead takes 10d6 points of damage. The only way to restore life to a character who has failed to save against this spell is to use true resurrection, a carefully worded wish spell followed by resurrection, or miracle.

[Fyraltari]

Or perhaps five. I'm hoping beyond hope that the probability of him making all five saves is one in a million...

For that to be true he'd need to have a 1/16 (roughly) chance to make each save.

[understatement]

Okay, let's see...two routes:

1) Durkon dies.

That would suck royally. Also, the Order -- if they are nearby -- will immediately attack, but the realization comes that Redcloak is also the only cleric high level enough to resurrect him. The battle will draw out bugbears and eventually Xykon, which means the Order is doomed. Xykon is the time-ticking clock here. He shows up, it's game over.

2) Durkon makes his save.

Durkon will have to fight back unless he wants to eat more spells. The outcome of Redcloak vs. Durkon will be known. This would be where Minrah, Order, Xykon, or bugbears interfere. Escape is near impossible, since it takes 30 seconds to transition from solid to Wind Walk phase.

I...genuinely don't know how this will turn out. As Qarr puts it, "what a tweest!"

[dancrilis]

Durkon will have to fight back unless he wants to eat more spells. The outcome of Redcloak vs. Durkon will be known. This would be where Minrah, Order, Xykon, or bugbears interfere. Escape is near impossible, since it takes 30 seconds to transition from solid to Wind Walk phase.

My suspicion for a while has been he would Word of Recall away if things went bad, and with the Mechane still close by he could then rejoin the party quickly (or avoid them if he feared being scryed on).

[gerryq]

Honestly, I’m half-expecting this planet to turn out to be settled by the victims of the Snarl and their descendants.

But Lauren detected no life in its waters. Just the Snarl.

[TRH]

well... Damn. thought things were going really well there, i was really enjoying the peace talks.

do wonder why Durkon never thought to mention the fact that the dark one wouldn't survive to the next world. you'd think that would be an important thing to bring up.

It's almost impossible to support that claim. Like I said earlier, it's hard for even us to accept given the implications for Hel's plan, and even we have no evidence besides Thor's word.

[RyanW1019]

Maybe I'm not politically savvy enough to understand Redcloak here, but how does this help Redcloak achieve his goals? At some point, he will need to force the gods to make concessions, and at that point someone will be sent to negotiate on the gods' behalf. If not Durkon, it would be someone like him. Does Redcloak think he will be able to get the gods to personally appeal to him, once the ritual is ready? Or does he just think he would be able to get more for his side if he follows through with his plan and has his hand on the big red button?

I'm just not sure why Redcloak's response is to kill Durkon, even if he disagrees with the offer he just heard. That may have been the most conciliatory speech Redcloak has ever heard from a Good-aligned person, and it's clear that the gods are willing to come to the table already. So why didn't Redcloak just say "no" and make a harder counteroffer?

[Snails]

This was the best deal Redcloak could have ever expected, and he turned it down because for him it really is his way or the highway. He may really care about the welfare of his race, but not as much as he cares about being right.
This was Redcloak's final chance at redemption, and he squandered it just as he has all of his other chances. He has proved that he really is a villain because of his choices, not because of his circumstances.

I am betting Durkon survives because he learned from his last death and did not come to the meeting unprepared or without an escape plan. Or alone, for that matter.

I agree. Durkon did not waltz unprepared into this, simply expecting successful diplomacy with an evil cleric -- but he was morally obliged to try.

This is Redcloak's Evolve Or Die moment. Durkon ably steered the conversation to the specific interests of the many living breathing goblins in Goblotopia, and even signed on for getting Hinjo's personal agreement as well as Thor's. If that opening does not spark Redcloak to cut a deal for goblins interests with him, then no peaceful deal is possible.

[Gray Mage]

I'm just not sure why Redcloak's response is to kill Durkon, even if he disagrees with the offer he just heard. That may have been the most conciliatory speech Redcloak has ever heard from a Good-aligned person, and it's clear that the gods are willing to come to the table already. So why didn't Redcloak just say "no" and make a harder counteroffer?

Because the terms aren't the issue, the issue is that this invalidates The Plan and RC's sunken cost. And he knows that, which is why he's not even facing Durkon, he's most likely ashamed.

[Squire Doodad]

Maybe I'm not politically savvy enough to understand Redcloak here, but how does this help Redcloak achieve his goals?

The general consensus appears to be "sunk cost fallacy", unfortunately.

[Snowbody]

...Welp.

Just before he casts Implosion here he looks almost reluctant. He wasn’t totally unwilling to listen to Durkon here... it’s just that the good of goblinoids was never his only motivation for doing this. And he’s pragmatic enough to try and end this as soon as possible with as much power he can manage.

My thoughts exactly. Redcloak is really ambivalent about killing Durkon, but feels like it's his only choice. Or he's deceived himself into thinking it's his only choice.

I was pretty impressed with Durkon's attempts to negotiate here. He's really trying to expand himself and work on his empathy for people who are vastly unlike him.

However, he failed, and I'm not surprised -- he's new at this after all. But what surprised me the most was the reason why he failed.

It's the same reason a lot of people were giving Redcloak grief earlier.

Durkon didn't really understand the background and motivations of his negotiating party. He made assumptions about Redcloak's motivations that were only partially correct. He doesn't know Redcloak's past and traumas and the baggage he's still carrying.

Also, he closed with an ultimatum: Do what I suggested at the start, and maybe just maybe you'll get some of the things you consider essential. The final offer needs to be multilateral. That's a recipe for failure.

[Fyraltari]

But Lauren detected no life in its waters. Just the Snarl.

I doubt that Laurin has the power to scan an entire planet like that, and the coming of the Snarl would most likely make everything else scatter as fast as possible.

[understatement]

My suspicion for a while has been he would Word of Recall away if things went bad, and with the Mechane still close by he could then rejoin the party quickly (or avoid them if he feared being scryed on).

I don't know if a) Durkon set up Word of Recall and b) if he's willing to endanger the Mechane pirates in case RC or Xykon come after them.

What's the chance of Durkon making the save? Any D&Ders know the percentage? Judging by his expression in the last panel, it looks like things went Durkon-shaped in the most literal sense possible.

Overall, these discussions lasted seven pages (five strips). Seven pages and not even a tenth into the story. Durkon's setting himself some new records on his death-o-meter.

[FlawedParadigm]

I agree. Durkon did not waltz unprepared into this, simply expecting successful diplomacy with an evil cleric -- but he was morally obliged to try.

This is Redcloak's Evolve Or Die moment. Durkon ably steered the conversation to the specific interests of the many living breathing goblins in Goblotopia, and even signed on for getting Hinjo's personal agreement as well as Thor's. If that opening does not spark Redcloak to cut a deal for goblins interests with him, then no peaceful deal is possible.

This. It's the perfect deal; it gives Redcloak everything the goblinoids could reasonably ask for - and a bit extra. Durkon is assuming the acquiescence of both Thor and Hinjo (although those parties are also getting decent deals) and - even better - it's costing Redcloak nothing. This is as good as it gets. Peace was never an option if he refuses this.

Completely unrelated side note: Anyone want to stat up a Sunken Cost elemental?

[TRH]

Maybe I'm not politically savvy enough to understand Redcloak here, but how does this help Redcloak achieve his goals? At some point, he will need to force the gods to make concessions, and at that point someone will be sent to negotiate on the gods' behalf. If not Durkon, it would be someone like him. Does Redcloak think he will be able to get the gods to personally appeal to him, once the ritual is ready? Or does he just think he would be able to get more for his side if he follows through with his plan and has his hand on the big red button?

I'm just not sure why Redcloak's response is to kill Durkon, even if he disagrees with the offer he just heard. That may have been the most conciliatory speech Redcloak has ever heard from a Good-aligned person, and it's clear that the gods are willing to come to the table already. So why didn't Redcloak just say "no" and make a harder counteroffer?

The closest thing to rational calculation at work here is likely the conviction that the Good gods will only be ready to make sincere concessions once he and the Dark One have their finger on the big red button. His seeming ambivalence may indicate that Durkon has at least convinced him that he himself is sincere in wanting to make a compromise, but his offer depends on persuading Hinjo, Thor and who knows who else to let Gobbotopia be, among other things, and there is room to doubt he'll be able to do that.

[Snails]

Maybe I'm not politically savvy enough to understand Redcloak here, but how does this help Redcloak achieve his goals? At some point, he will need to force the gods to make concessions, and at that point someone will be sent to negotiate on the gods' behalf. If not Durkon, it would be someone like him. Does Redcloak think he will be able to get the gods to personally appeal to him, once the ritual is ready? Or does he just think he would be able to get more for his side if he follows through with his plan and has his hand on the big red button?

I'm just not sure why Redcloak's response is to kill Durkon, even if he disagrees with the offer he just heard. That may have been the most conciliatory speech Redcloak has ever heard from a Good-aligned person, and it's clear that the gods are willing to come to the table already. So why didn't Redcloak just say "no" and make a harder counteroffer?

The thing the deal denies Redcloak is revenge for generations of injury, some imagined but many very real. Also, it implicitly admits that working with this lich may have been a bad idea. Redcloak has probably been telling himself that he and TDO are really in control of this path, because of the betrayal hidden within the alliance with Xykon. If Redcloak says yes to Durkon, he has to deal with Xykon more or less immediately. In the short term, that it a risky choice. But it would be a choice that probably serves the long term interests of the goblins of Goblotopia. Is Redcloak willing to give up his imagined control over this extremely dangerous situation to bet it all on Goblotopia and working with Durkon? If Goblotopia is actually important, then Durkon is probably right....

[Draconi Redfir]

idle thought: What if Redcloak ISN'T imploding Durkon out of malice? He's looking away and offscreen, maybe he sees Xykon coming and is trying to save Durkon from having his soul captured? Or maybe Redcloak is hoping to bring Durkon somewhere else more private and raise him there, outside of a place where any bugbear or lich could wander in.

[Squire Doodad]

Completely unrelated side note: Anyone want to stat up a Sunken Cost elemental?

So it'd be an emotion elemental, possibly a Lawful Neutral one? Anyone have a sample of a Pain Elemental or something that we can use some of?

I imagine it has a muted blue body, made out of viscous liquid despair over what has already been lost, with chunks of solid resolve, including lining its "hands".

[TRH]

This. It's the perfect deal; it gives Redcloak everything the goblinoids could reasonably ask for - and a bit extra. Durkon is assuming the acquiescence of both Thor and Hinjo (although those parties are also getting decent deals) and - even better - it's costing Redcloak nothing. This is as good as it gets. Peace was never an option if he refuses this.

Completely unrelated side note: Anyone want to stat up a Sunken Cost elemental?

The elemental would gain more HP the more damage it inflicts to you and your party, and the more spells/other limited use abilities you use against it.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe this means that Durkon will have to make the deal with another goblinoid cleric with less baggage? Either after defeating Red Cloak (leading to a new bearer of the cloak to negotiate with) or just otherwise?