Optimizing a Double-Scimitar Wielding Gish

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Another player at my table has decided to get back to DMing, which means that I get to be a player again (yay!). Trouble is, he's decided to move to 5e, which I've had only very limited exposure to (and even less more recent than 2015, pre-SCAG). I've got a concept for a character I'd like to play and a general sense of how to realize it, but I could use some help from you, my learned 5e char-op colleagues, to get the details right and polish the mechanics so that I can justify my fluff. Legal sources at my table are anything officially published by WotC, with UA subject to DM approval. Additionally, I'm coming from a 3.5/PF paradigm, so I don't know what I don't know about 5th edition, and if my priorities need adjusting, please let me know.

The character concept is a skillful gish wielding a Valenar Double-Scimitar, possibly mounted (build and campaign allowing), and hopefully with some talent for music and/or storytelling. At the moment, I intend to be a Half-Elf Bard with a smattering of Hexblade levels for proficiencies and that delicious Charisma synergy. Using a 27 point buy, and putting my +1s into Dexterity and Constitution, my stats are 8, 15, 14, 12, 10, 17, respectively, though I'm open to changing them if there's an array that's a better fit for the character concept. I do dislike having stats under 10, and while the DM is (initially, at least) using Variant Encumbrance, I'd rather be a little low on Strength than Intelligence or Wisdom (though a maximum unencumbered carry weight of 40 is a little bit distressing - do stat boosting magical items or permanent magical stat boosts exist in 5th edition?). Likewise, while I think a 12 Wisdom would be more practical, I prefer the higher Intelligence score for aesthetic reasons.

My priorities are, in order, 9th level spells with a focus on Battlefield Control, Buffing myself and my allies, and Utility. Second is being useful in mêlée combat; I don't need to deal the absolute most damage possible in mêlée, but I'd like to be good enough that there's no reason to question why I'm getting up close and personal. A corollary to that would be having a respectable AC, since I'd generally prefer to not constantly risk being killed by other combatants, though I'd prefer to avoid heavier armors, for aesthetic reasons (I suppose I could get away with a Breastplate or Half-Plate, but more on that below). Third priority is skillfulness. I'd like to have a broad base of knowledge and social skills, but also Acrobatics and/or Athletics, Stealth, Performance, and Perception, which is a lot, obviously. Coming from a 3.PF paradigm, I'm not sure which skills are most useful and therefore are best for putting my limited proficiencies into, and which are skills I can rely on Jack of All Trades to keep me up to snuff, so I welcome advice on that front. Fourth priority would be ranged combat; I'd like to use a bow, for aesthetic reasons, but if I end up using Eldritch Blast then I guess I get to use one of my Magical Secrets for something other than Swift Quiver. Fifth priority is mounted combat, for a mixture of aesthetics and advantage (should I take Elven Accuracy, more on feats in a bit).

A more detailed breakdown of what I’m considering follows:

Spoiler

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I'm pretty sure I'll need three levels of Hexblade for Pact of the Blade (to apply my Charisma mod to attack and damage with the VDS), and ideally I won't need to take any more beyond that, so as not to prevent my getting Ninth-level spells (both slots and known). I'm not sure where to fit them in the build, however. I'm starting at level four, and I need to have at least one level of Warlock by that point (for story reasons), but I think I'd prefer to start as a Bard, as it seems to offer better proficiencies (Dexterity and Charisma saves, any three skills vs. Wisdom and Charisma saves and two skills from a limited list) especially given that Hexblade gets weapons and armor proficiencies regardless of when one takes the first level, unless I'm quite mistaken. I could go Bard 1/Warlock 3/Bard 2-17, which would bring my Charisma to Attack online quickly, but it would mean delaying spellcasting and my Bard features.

Speaking of Bard features, I've been debating between College of Lore, College of Valor, and College of Swords. I really like the additional skill proficiencies and especially the Magical Secrets of Lore, but I imagine I'm going to really want Extra Attack on this character. Between Valor and Swords, I think I prefer Swords, especially if my DM is willing to let me take the Great Weapon Fighting style in place of Dueling or Two Weapon Fighting, as neither of those works with the VDS. In either case, I'm waiting until Bard 6 for Extra Attack (though the Bonus Action Attack will ameliorate that, somewhat), which means CL 7 or higher, depending on where I fit the Warlock levels I take. But of course, delaying Warlock 3 for Pact of the Blade also means a longer wait until I get my Charisma to attacks with the VDS online (though Revenant Blade mitigates that, a little, if I put sufficient resources into Dexterity). Either way, it looks like I'm going to be waiting to come fully online until about CL 9, so perhaps Bard 3/Hexblade 1/Bard 4/Hexblade 2-3/Bard 5-17, with Revenant Blade at CL 5, is the best way to progress the character? Or should I go Bard 1/Hexblade 3/Bard 2-17, so that I’m using Charisma for attack and damage with the VDS at the start of play, even though that delays Revenant Blade to CL 7 and Extra Attack to CL 9, not to mention the delay in Spellcasting? Will that work in practice from levels 4-9? Would one order be better from 4-9 (and beyond)? If I go the former route, I’ll probably need to wield something other than the VDS until I hit CL 5, which isn’t ideal but I can make it work. Finally, am I wrong about Extra Attack, and could make a perfectly capable mêlée Hexblard (Bladeblade? Swordblade? Hexbardlock? Did Gishounen or Baeblade ever catch on?) out of a Lore Bard?

The next question I think needs answering would be my eventual stat distribution and feats. My DM is allowing us to use downtime to train skills, feats, and possibly spells known, and has said we can rely on at least three feats over the course of our campaign, which I know changes the usual equation more than a little. I know I’m going to miss out on one ASI by CL 20, but I may be able to make that up with half-feats from downtime training. Speaking of which, I’m planning to take Revenant Blade (with an ASI) and Elven Accuracy (with downtime), which will put my stats at 8, 16, 14, 12, 10, and 18. I anticipate taking two ASIs, one to max Charisma and the other into either Dexterity or Constitution. Dexterity will benefit me less if I’m using Eldritch Blast and/or Medium Armor; Constitution is useful regardless of other choices I make with the build, but may be less useful than the Dexterity increase if I’m using Mage Armor or Light Armor, and/or a bow. Not knowing the system, I’d appreciate your recommendations. As for the other downtime feats, Mounted Combatant would make sense from a fluff perspective, though it seems that mounted combat isn’t particularly viable in this edition (especially if you’re using a Large mount to get Advantage against the typical Medium enemy) so perhaps that resource would be better spent elsewhere. Beyond that, I’m open to suggestions.

Regarding Spellcasting and Invocations, I could use some suggestions for what to take. Particularly with Invocations, since I’ll only get two. As much as I’d initially wanted to take Improved Pact Weapon I think it would be a waste on this build, since I need my Pact Weapon to be my VDS to key it off Charisma, so I couldn’t simultaneously use it for a bow as well. Agonizing Blast would work well, assuming I choose to use Eldritch Blast for ranged combat, rather than a bow. If I go that route, Repelling Blast would also add some useful BC to my Eldritch Blasts. Devil’s Sight is right out, if only because of Darkness shenanigans which occurred in an earlier (3.5) campaign, as much as it would be useful. Same story with Misty Visions, unfortunately. Armor of Shadows is another interesting option; it’d obviate the need to use Medium Armor, and with a Dexterity of 18 I’d have equal AC to (Mithral, hopefully) Half Plate, and I’m almost certain to have armor any time I want or need to. As far as spells go, what’s good for BC, buffs, and utility in 5e? I’ve been checking out the various Bard handbooks, which are useful, but if there’s anything particularly crucial I’d be happy to hear about it.

Beyond that, for skills, I could easily justify proficiency in pretty much anything. My priorities for skills are listed above, but I have to wonder which I can rely on Jack of All Trades to cover, and which I really ought to spend my Proficiencies on? And which benefit most from Expertise? Also, are there any particularly crucial Tool Proficiencies that it’d be good to have? My party has someone with proficiency in Thief’s Tools and the Brewer’s Kit, as far as I know, but beyond that, I’ve no idea.

Looking again, it looks like the biggest choice I still need to make, beyond leveling order and stat distribution, is whether or not to go the Armor of Shadows/Bow/high Dexterity route or the Medium Armor/Eldritch Blast/high Constitution route. I’d appreciate any advice on the relative merits of both options.

So, in sum, I’d appreciate your advice on what order to take my Hexblade dip in, whether to go Swords Bard or Lore Bard^[1.], recommendations for feats and eventual stat distribution, spells, invocations, skills, and whether to go Armor of Shadows/Bow/high Dexterity or Medium Armor/Eldritch Blast/high Constitution, keeping in mind that I’m starting off at level 4, and depending on what order I take my dip in, my equipment and strategies may require adjusting until I can get everything on line. And, of course, pointing out any areas in which I’m approaching this with a 3.5/PF mindset which is not applicable to 5th.

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[1.] One additional complication - for story reasons, my character may end up having been a Werewolf all along, in which case, I’d need to reconsider the merits of Lore Bard versus Swords Bard. Since I’d be getting the equivalent of Extra Attack that way, I’d likely go Lore Bard, since I suspect the features of College of Lore outweigh Blade Flourish and Greater Weapon Fighting Style (assuming I can substitute that in as a regional variation - otherwise it’s basically a dead feature for this character). But I’m waiting to hear back from the DM on that one, so for now, it’ll just remain an intriguing possibility.

[Yakk]

Consider just being a Swords bard, and dropping Hexblade. 3 levels is a lot.

Start with:

8, 17+1, 14, 12, 10, 15
and Revenant Blade.

With Studded, your AC is 17. You are capable with a bow. You get extra attack at 6. And you are 1 level away from Font of Inspiration at 5, which makes inspiration more common with 15 cha than it would be in your build with 17 cha.

Grab Elven Accuracy at 8 for 16 charisma.

Starting at around level 7, polymorph an ally into a giant ape or t-rex is just amazing.

At 10, grab Holy Weapon and Find Greater Steed (Griffon), and you'll be a beast in melee combat; 5d4+6d8+9=48.5 average, plus Griffon.

At 11, if your DM is ok with "class feature variants" UA, use Tenser's Transformation and be crazy; 5d4+6d12+9=64.5 average, and triple-advantage, plus Griffon gets the same boost. You only get 1/day, so Holy Weapon isn't obsolete (holy weapon lasts an hour, and can be used to make a big boom too). If not, you wait for level 14 and get it then.

At 12, get +2 dex (20) or +2 cha (18) or mounted combatant (advantage on fighting medium sized foes when mounted).

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Yes, Lore bard is generally considered a stronger bard than Swords bard. Except sword bard can pretend to be a melee combatant. ;) Plus sometimes you get to push someone into lava.

Even if you can't use the fighting style, I'd say go Swords over Valor. You aren't using the shield, and I think the flourishes are better than the valor use option, especially as you have bonus action attacks.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Consider just being a Swords bard, and dropping Hexblade. 3 levels is a lot.

I'll give it a look, but I was under the impression that Swords Bard wasn't proficient with the VDS, and of all the ways to get Martial Weapon proficiency Hexblade seemed the best fit for a high Charisma, low Strength build. On top of that, the Warlock multiclass plays into the character's backstory (though that's still somewhat mutable, at this stage).

Start with:

8, 17+1, 14, 12, 10, 15
and Revenant Blade.

With Studded, your AC is 17. You are capable with a bow. You get extra attack at 6. And you are 1 level away from Font of Inspiration at 5, which makes inspiration more common with 15 cha than it would be in your build with 17 cha.

Grab Elven Accuracy at 8 for 16 charisma.

And I take it I would then max Charisma with the following two ASIs?

Starting at around level 7, polymorph an ally into a giant ape or t-rex is just amazing.

At 10, grab Holy Weapon and Find Greater Steed (Griffon), and you'll be a beast in melee combat; 5d4+6d8+9=48.5 average, plus Griffon.

Good to know. I'd been wondering whether to go with Find Greater Steed or Phantom Steed, which seems to be faster, can be cast as a ritual, and doesn't seem to disappear immediately at 0 HP. Can a Greater Steed make attack actions? I thought that wasn't an option for a mount, in 5th, unless you let the mount act on its own (presumably under the control of the DM), am I mistaken?

Also, would Swift Quiver be worth picking up? Or is trying to be a full caster, a mêlée combatant, and a competent archer not viable in this edition?

At 11, if your DM is ok with "class feature variants" UA, use Tenser's Transformation and be crazy; 5d4+6d12+9=64.5 average, and triple-advantage, plus Griffon gets the same boost. You only get 1/day, so Holy Weapon isn't obsolete (holy weapon lasts an hour, and can be used to make a big boom too). If not, you wait for level 14 and get it then.

At 12, get +2 dex (20) or +2 cha (18) or mounted combatant (advantage on fighting medium sized foes when mounted).

What are the "class feature variants", where are they, and which of them would be applicable? Doesn't Tenser's Transformation keep me from casting for the duration? Or is the spell somehow modified by the UA stuff? Also, don't I need a Charisma of at least 19 for ninth level spells? Apart from Advantage against medium and smaller foe (with the feat), is mounted combat really viable, or am I just going to use the mount's movement to approach the target, end its turn, and then attack on mine (which happens concurrently, I understand)?

Yes, Lore bard is generally considered a stronger bard than Swords bard. Except sword bard can pretend to be a melee combatant. ;) Plus sometimes you get to push someone into lava.

Even if you can't use the fighting style, I'd say go Swords over Valor. You aren't using the shield, and I think the flourishes are better than the valor use option, especially as you have bonus action attacks.

So a Lore Bard Gish isn't a viable option (barring shenanigans like being a Lycanthrope or similar), I take it? And by "pretend to be a melee combatant," do you mean that even as a Swords Bard I'm not going to be particularly capable in that role? The point is to be both a capable caster and a mêlée combatant, after all. I agree with Swords over Valor, in any case, even if I'm not able to get the Fighting Style.

[Yakk]

You aren't going to be a GWM+PAM fighter or a Smite-monster Paladin.

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Ah I see, yes Swords bard doesn't get martial weapon proficiency. Annoying. That does require a splash or a feat to be burned.

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You'd only max charisma if you want to. Warcaster can be better, for example.

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Find Greater Steed is a concentration-free flying with 60 HP. DMs may or may not let it attack; you are supposed to have a telepathic link. Sage advice is a bit vague.

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Swift Quiver is great if you want to be an archer. But if you want to be an archer, there are a pile of feats you aren't grabbing (XBE, SS) that would be a significant boost.

You can be an acceptable archer, but no, you cannot be a great melee combatant and a great archer, because great is relative. And someone who focuses on either will outclass you.

What do you mean by competent?

Your magical secrets are your best class feature.

Holy Weapon works with a sling as well as a double scimitar. So you can have a sling that deals 2d8+1d4+5 damage.

Using a hand crossbow as an archer requires crossbow expert feat (or you cannot make 2 attacks in 1 action; also, it gives you a 3rd bonus action attack). A sword bard hand crossbow gish is quite doable (for that, you might splash fighter for archery fighting style).

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Class feature variants was (in my opinion) a high quality UA : https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/une...ature-variants that includes an option for bards to have more spells and swap them around a bit faster.

You can either get tensers via that, or via secrets a few levels later. With it, a lore bard gish can attack twice with an attack action; but, as a 6th level slot, it is a bit late to base a build around.

Tensers does stop you from casting, but 2d12 damage per hit and advantage is a very nice thing to have.

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Extra Attack tends to double your weapon damage output. Being a gish without extra attack means your attack action isn't going to be nearly as strong.

A bard-gish is always going to be dependent on spells.

[DarknessEternal]

Can Half Elves take Elf only feats?

[stoutstien]

battle smith can work and you even get a mount when you need it with enlarge/reduce. not as much damage output as the standard hexblade/X but you will be tough as nails while dealing close to 90% of the same damage. why be charming when you can literally be the smartest person in the party and carry an insane weapon.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

You aren't going to be a GWM+PAM fighter or a Smite-monster Paladin.

Forgive my ignorance, but are you meaning that I won't be able to do the same sort of damage as a GWM+PAM Fighter/Smite-y McSmiteface Paladin? Is that burst damage, or sustained, or both? Is that the level of damage one needs to bring to the table to be useful in mêlée? I'm not looking to out damage the Dwarf Champion Fighter (who doesn't really optimize), just be within whatever a reasonable margin is in this edition. As long as I'm able to hang with level appropriate encounters (and maybe a little bit above, if possible) I'll likely be happy.

Ah I see, yes Swords bard doesn't get martial weapon proficiency. Annoying. That does require a splash or a feat to be burned.

Which is why, initially, I wanted to just do Hexblade 1 (or even Fighter or Paladin, though I haven't the Strength score for Paladin) and get out of there, but if I want to be more or less Charisma SAD and use the VDS I need at least three levels. I could theoretically get by on the fact that Revenant Blade makes it a Finesse weapon, and screw being SAD, but the thought of hitting things with the sheer power of my own self-confidence is an amusing notion, if nothing else.

You'd only max charisma if you want to. Warcaster can be better, for example.

Again, forgive my ignorance, but in what way is Warcaster better than a 20 Charisma? I can see how it'd be useful (casting a spell as a reaction would be sweet, not to mention the rest), but given that there's a reasonable chance for me to get both is a +5 to my casting, attack, and damage stat not that important? Like I said initially, I don't know what I don't know.

Find Greater Steed is a concentration-free flying with 60 HP. DMs may or may not let it attack; you are supposed to have a telepathic link. Sage advice is a bit vague.

Good to know, I'll have to ask how it'll be adjudicated at this table.

Swift Quiver is great if you want to be an archer. But if you want to be an archer, there are a pile of feats you aren't grabbing (XBE, SS) that would be a significant boost.

You can be an acceptable archer, but no, you cannot be a great melee combatant and a great archer, because great is relative. And someone who focuses on either will outclass you.

What do you mean by competent?

What's the gap between "great" and "acceptable"? I'm okay if I'm not able to hang with someone whose whole build is focused on mêlée combat or archery, but I'd like to be close enough that I'm able to hold my own.

Your magical secrets are your best class feature.

Indeed.

Holy Weapon works with a sling as well as a double scimitar. So you can have a sling that deals 2d8+1d4+5 damage.

Why a sling as opposed to a bow?

Using a hand crossbow as an archer requires crossbow expert feat (or you cannot make 2 attacks in 1 action; also, it gives you a 3rd bonus action attack). A sword bard hand crossbow gish is quite doable (for that, you might splash fighter for archery fighting style).

I'll look into it, though for aesthetic reasons I'd prefer a Longbow or the like. Doing the Medieval-John-Wick thing is cool, but perhaps not for this group.

Class feature variants was (in my opinion) a high quality UA : https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/une...ature-variants that includes an option for bards to have more spells and swap them around a bit faster.

You can either get tensers via that, or via secrets a few levels later. With it, a lore bard gish can attack twice with an attack action; but, as a 6th level slot, it is a bit late to base a build around.

Tensers does stop you from casting, but 2d12 damage per hit and advantage is a very nice thing to have.

Thanks, I'll run it past my DM.

Extra Attack tends to double your weapon damage output. Being a gish without extra attack means your attack action isn't going to be nearly as strong.

A bard-gish is always going to be dependent on spells.

Thanks, that clarifies some things for me. I'm fine being dependent on spells, otherwise I wouldn't play a spellcaster. As long as I'm not straight up shooting myself in the foot taking trap options (looking at you, 3.5 Toughness) I think I should be alright.

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Can Half Elves take Elf only feats?

My DM says yes, though YMMV. Elven Accuracy explicitly states that it's open to Half-Elves.

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battle smith can work and you even get a mount when you need it with enlarge/reduce. not as much damage output as the standard hexblade/X but you will be tough as nails while dealing close to 90% of the same damage. why be charming when you can literally be the smartest person in the party and carry an insane weapon.

There's another player at the table going that route already, though I don't know whether or not he's mêlée focused.

[Yakk]

Forgive my ignorance, but are you meaning that I won't be able to do the same sort of damage as a GWM+PAM Fighter/Smite-y McSmiteface Paladin? Is that burst damage, or sustained, or both? Is that the level of damage one needs to bring to the table to be useful in mêlée? I'm not looking to out damage the Dwarf Champion Fighter (who doesn't really optimize), just be within whatever a reasonable margin is in this edition. As long as I'm able to hang with level appropriate encounters (and maybe a little bit above, if possible) I'll likely be happy.

I'm not sure what you mean by "useful".

In 5e with bounded accuracy, a CR 1/8 guardsman with a magic crossbow is useful even against a Kracken. They'll add some damage; not much, but some. They'll eat an attack before they die.

If someone else does twice the damage you are doing, are you "useful"? 3 times? 50% more? What is your threshold.

Which is why, initially, I wanted to just do Hexblade 1 (or even Fighter or Paladin, though I haven't the Strength score for Paladin) and get out of there, but if I want to be more or less Charisma SAD and use the VDS I need at least three levels. I could theoretically get by on the fact that Revenant Blade makes it a Finesse weapon, and screw being SAD, but the thought of hitting things with the sheer power of my own self-confidence is an amusing notion, if nothing else.

You want at least 14 dex for medium armor AC (or 15 strength for plate armor). If you avoid using save based bard spells (and there are a bunch), 14-16 charisma is playable.

Getting your bard features 2-3 levels earlier is big. Now, the last 2 levels of bard are worth passing up, so splashing 1-2 levels of non-bard isn't going to make you feel sad at 20. The problem is once you hit level 10, you will be X levels behind on your magical secrets, and those are fun.

Again, forgive my ignorance, but in what way is Warcaster better than a 20 Charisma? I can see how it'd be useful (casting a spell as a reaction would be sweet, not to mention the rest), but given that there's a reasonable chance for me to get both is a +5 to my casting, attack, and damage stat not that important? Like I said initially, I don't know what I don't know.

Concentration.

The most powerful 5e spells are concentration based. Warcaster gives you advantage on concentration saves.

This is also why picking a level 1 class with Con save is popular (fighter, sorcerer), or getting resiliant con (after you are high enough in level that the proficiency boost is large).

When you are in tenser's transformation mode, being able to reliably beat a 10 DC save and somewhat a 20 DC save can keep you as a melee beast.

What's the gap between "great" and "acceptable"? I'm okay if I'm not able to hang with someone whose whole build is focused on mêlée combat or archery, but I'd like to be close enough that I'm able to hold my own.

Again, I have no idea what you mean by "hold your own".

Why a sling as opposed to a bow?

Sling, shortbow. When you are adding 2d12 damage per tap, who cares. (ok, there is a range difference).

Longbow is martial. So you have to splash to get it.

I'll look into it, though for aesthetic reasons I'd prefer a Longbow or the like. Doing the Medieval-John-Wick thing is cool, but perhaps not for this group.

Hand crossbow proficiency is baseline bard, which is a small advantage.

(Hand Crossbow bard beats a double-scimitar bard in most measures; SS+XBE are way too strong as feats. But you want a melee bard, which is fair. A lot of the advice crosses over, however.)

[Willie the Duck]

Also, would Swift Quiver be worth picking up? Or is trying to be a full caster, a mêlée combatant, and a competent archer not viable in this edition?

Strictly speaking, that's what a Valor bard is (or bladelock warlock, although some would disagree on them being a 'full' caster, given the limitations on their post-5th-level spells).
However, Swift Quiver, in isolation, nets your character 4*(1d8+stat) arrows, and you would pick it up just before (or after, given that you are talking about multiclassing) when a reasonably built Dex-based Samurai/Battlemaster fighter with XBE and SS can lay down 7*(1d8+stat+10) damage, with ways of making the -5 (-3 comparatively, since they will have ranged fighting style, while you will not) to-hit relatively trivial.

So, yes, there are ways of making a character be able to do melee, ranged, and full casting. However, being genuinely good at it requires expending a lot more than a mere mid-level spell slot/spell known.

[DarknessEternal]

My DM says yes, though YMMV. Elven Accuracy explicitly states that it's open to Half-Elves.

Revenant Blade doesn't. But house rules are still rules.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

I'm not sure what you mean by "useful".

In 5e with bounded accuracy, a CR 1/8 guardsman with a magic crossbow is useful even against a Kracken. They'll add some damage; not much, but some. They'll eat an attack before they die.

If someone else does twice the damage you are doing, are you "useful"? 3 times? 50% more? What is your threshold.

I guess it depends on what sort of damage it is possible to deal, and how much health monsters and enemies are likely to have. If the Smite-adin can, on a regular basis, one shot enemies twice over, and I'm only dealing half the damage they are, then the difference is pretty much moot. If the Paladin or PAM/GWM Fighter is taking down their HP in 25% chunks and I can only manage 2-5% at a time, that would be less useful. Would being within 80% be a reasonable expectation?

You want at least 14 dex for medium armor AC (or 15 strength for plate armor). If you avoid using save based bard spells (and there are a bunch), 14-16 charisma is playable.

Do most battlefield control spells allow saves? Web does, if I remember correctly, as do others. Given the Concentration requirements, is it reasonable to expect to be able to buff and do BC simultaneously?

Getting your bard features 2-3 levels earlier is big. Now, the last 2 levels of bard are worth passing up, so splashing 1-2 levels of non-bard isn't going to make you feel sad at 20. The problem is once you hit level 10, you will be X levels behind on your magical secrets, and those are fun.

I'll take this into consideration.

Concentration.

The most powerful 5e spells are concentration based. Warcaster gives you advantage on concentration saves.

This is also why picking a level 1 class with Con save is popular (fighter, sorcerer), or getting resiliant con (after you are high enough in level that the proficiency boost is large).

When you are in tenser's transformation mode, being able to reliably beat a 10 DC save and somewhat a 20 DC save can keep you as a melee beast.

Good to know. Given Concentration as such a limiting factor, is my notion of being able to handle buffing and bc simultaneously viable, in 5th?

Again, I have no idea what you mean by "hold your own".

I suppose I mean be good enough within the role that I'm not taking away from my party's effectiveness by trying to fulfill that role, rather than doing something else. I'm looking to build a primary support/secondary mêlée (or perhaps more accurately "weapons based combatant") type character, so it's reasonable that I'm not going to be as effective as a more focused build, but if that level of versatility would mean that I'll struggle to meaningfully contribute (like your CR 1/8 guard example, who might deal a little damage before becoming combat ineffective but will likely spend the majority of the encounter dead or unconscious) then I suppose I'll have to rethink my concept.

Sling, shortbow. When you are adding 2d12 damage per tap, who cares. (ok, there is a range difference).

Longbow is martial. So you have to splash to get it.

Ah, and Swords Bards are proficient with the Sling, got it.

Hand crossbow proficiency is baseline bard, which is a small advantage.

(Hand Crossbow bard beats a double-scimitar bard in most measures; SS+XBE are way too strong as feats. But you want a melee bard, which is fair. A lot of the advice crosses over, however.)

Yeah, I remember reading about how effective SS+XBE is in this edition. The trouble is that it'd be tough to refluff it in a way which is aesthetically appropriate to this campaign setting. Like I said, Medieval John Wick could be a fun route to go (XBE+SS+Swift Quiver would net four attacks a round at 10th, would it not?), but it wouldn't fit the aesthetics of this particular campaign setting. Even shield-surfing-Legolas would be stretching it a bit. Not that VDS is a particularly realistic weapon, but it at least maintains verisimilitude enough for this table. But who knows. Depending on just how generous with the downtime feats my DM is, I might pick them up just for the sake of trying it.

The problem is once you hit level 10, you will be X levels behind on your magical secrets, and those are fun.

I know that Hexblade 3/Bard 17 (in whatever order) puts me behind on Magical Secrets, but is that the main issue with taking those levels? Will being 3 levels behind in spellcasting not be a greater issue? I think I can handle being a little bit behind on that in play, but I guess we'll see. Worst comes to worst he bites it and I have to roll something new, with less substantial multiclassing. Or am I misreading you, and taking those Hexblade levels will put me behind relative to level-appropriate (or level+) challenges to the point that I would be a net-negative on the party's effectiveness?

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Strictly speaking, that's what a Valor bard is (or bladelock warlock, although some would disagree on them being a 'full' caster, given the limitations on their post-5th-level spells).
However, Swift Quiver, in isolation, nets your character 4*(1d8+stat) arrows, and you would pick it up just before (or after, given that you are talking about multiclassing) when a reasonably built Dex-based Samurai/Battlemaster fighter with XBE and SS can lay down 7*(1d8+stat+10) damage, with ways of making the -5 (-3 comparatively, since they will have ranged fighting style, while you will not) to-hit relatively trivial.

So, yes, there are ways of making a character be able to do melee, ranged, and full casting. However, being genuinely good at it requires expending a lot more than a mere mid-level spell slot/spell known.

How often are they laying down 7 attacks per round? Is that an Action Surge thing? If so, isn't that a 'once per rest' ability? If we're expected to have more than one encounter per rest does that remain relevant? What ways do they have of making the -5/-3 relatively trivial? What other resources are required to be genuinely good beyond Swift Quiver?

I ask because my DM keeps bemoaning how mêlée focused the party is, and while I intend to be more mêlée focused than ranged, I'd like to be able to at least shore us up in that regard, so if there's an efficient way to do that (i.e., without drawing too many resources away from higher priority capabilities) I'd love to hear it.

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Revenant Blade doesn't. But house rules are still rules.

True, Revenant Blade doesn't, though the Hellcow himself stated it wouldn't be impossible for a Half-Elf to take it, at least in his Eberron. For example, if they grew up in the Valenar culture, which given the degree of de facto control House Lyrandar has on the ground in Valenar, along with their position in Khoravar culture, isn't impossible; not to mention the possibility of being a Half-Elf with a Tairnadal parent and having grown up with their Warband or been shipped off to the Aerenal Steppes (though this latter would be fairly unprecedented, as far as I can recall) and grown up training with their full Elf kin. Given that, in Eberron, the PCs are supposed to be remarkable individuals, having a Half-Elf PC with Revanant Blade would be entirely reasonable, assuming their backstory (or experiences in play) support it, even if it would be something heretofore unheard of, in universe.

But, crucially, I'm not playing in Eberron, and on top of that, while my character has the statistics of a Half-Elf, my DM is allowing me to refluff it as being a full Elf, just with non-standard stat bonuses and racial features (maybe he has some distant Human ancestry, or he's half elven like Elrond is half elven, where the Elf traits are far more apparent than the Human traits). He's even letting me Trance instead of sleep. I just figured that since, mechanically, he's a Half-Elf, all that backstory stuff was unnecessary for purposes of getting the character tweaked.

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I'd like to just take a moment here to thank you all for your help getting me up to speed. This community makes getting a sense of how the game plays at the table much easier, and that is an incredibly valuable thing.

[Yakk]

Strong buffs, and strong control, are both concentration. So is a lot of strong raw damage (sunbeam, animate objects, etc).

If you want to do strong battlefield control, you need to get an instrument of the bards and dedicate many or most combat actions to control, including concentration. Once the crowd control effects are down, you need to avoid taking damage and risking concentration loss (or making your con save so strong it isn't a risk).

A gish needs to lean into weapon combat if they are going to be in the same league as a weapon combat class. You don't get 90% weapon capability and 90% spellcasting capability.

This isn't 3e where non-spellcasting classes are jokes.

You still keep on describing what level of competence with weapons you want in vague terms. I asked is being 2/3, 1/2 or 1/3 as much damage as a focused "martial" character was good enough, and got no response.

[Willie the Duck]

How often are they laying down 7 attacks per round? Is that an Action Surge thing? If so, isn't that a 'once per rest' ability? If we're expected to have more than one encounter per rest does that remain relevant? What ways do they have of making the -5/-3 relatively trivial? What other resources are required to be genuinely good beyond Swift Quiver?

I ask because my DM keeps bemoaning how mêlée focused the party is, and while I intend to be more mêlée focused than ranged, I'd like to be able to at least shore us up in that regard, so if there's an efficient way to do that (i.e., without drawing too many resources away from higher priority capabilities) I'd love to hear it.

Okay, I did screw up my example just a little bit. It would be 7*1d6+stat+10 or 6*1d8+stat+10.
An 11th-level fighter using a Longbow, Sharpshooter feat, and using their action surge can shoot 6 d8 arrows in a round (and have their bonus action free for something else). One with a hand crossbow, Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert feats and using their action surge can shoot 7 d6 bolts in a round (7, not 8, because action surge does not give you an extra bonus action). They can take -5 to-hit on each shot and get +10 to damage. This is partially mitigated by the archery fighting style giving a +2 to-hit. They also can have additional ways of mitigating this penalty. Battlemasters can use the Precision Attack maneuver to add their maneuver dice to a looks-like-it-will-miss-by-just-a-little-bit roll. Samurai can use their Fighting Spirit ability (which takes their bonus action, making this better for the longbow build) to get advantage on their attacks for the round (or double-advantage, if they have the Elven Accuracy feat).

Yes, it is a 'once per rest' ability. Once that is expended, you are still shooting 3 arrows (or 4 bolts) per round, and can use the -5/+10 effect at-will. Do note that you are talking about casting a 5th level spell slot (that also will not encompass more than one encounter). There are trade-offs to every option.

To be good beyond swift quiver? Hmmm. If you wanted to be a dedicated 'archery gish' build, Sharpshooter and a way to get advantage/bonus-to-hit would be a good start (example: Hexblade with Darkness and the Devil's Sight invocation). Or XBE and a way to get extra damage per attack (Hex or Hunter's Mark). Most of these require concentration and thus compete with Swift Quiver. Another option is Holy Weapon instead of Swift Quiver. Instead of 2 extra attacks, it gives you +2d8 damage per hit. The main advantage is that it lasts up to an hour, meaning it can potentially be cast once for more than one combat.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Strong buffs, and strong control, are both concentration. So is a lot of strong raw damage (sunbeam, animate objects, etc).

If you want to do strong battlefield control, you need to get an instrument of the bards and dedicate many or most combat actions to control, including concentration. Once the crowd control effects are down, you need to avoid taking damage and risking concentration loss (or making your con save so strong it isn't a risk).

A gish needs to lean into weapon combat if they are going to be in the same league as a weapon combat class. You don't get 90% weapon capability and 90% spellcasting capability.

This isn't 3e where non-spellcasting classes are jokes.

So it sounds like I'll largely have to choose between Buffs (whether in furtherance of weapons combat abilities or otherwise) and Battlefield Control from encounter to encounter, rather than being able to cover both simultaneously? Or does this go further still, in that I'd have to choose between one role and the other, in order to achieve competency in either (competency being, say, 80% of what a build focused on just that role could achieve, assuming that 80% is not in and of itself overkill, keeping in mind that this character would still technically be a Gish rather than just moving over to a focused caster build).

Where can I find the Instrument of the Bards? Is that in SCAG? What do they do, exactly? Apart from picking up Constitution Save proficiency (which I don't think I could do without dipping something else, and starting the build with said something else) and War Caster what Con Save boosts are present in this edition?

You still keep on describing what level of competence with weapons you want in vague terms. I asked is being 2/3, 1/2 or 1/3 as much damage as a focused "martial" character was good enough, and got no response.

If I'm being vague, it's because I'm not familiar with what is possible in this system, so I apologize for that. But I did ask if 80%, or 4/5 the damage capability was a reasonable goal (see my first paragraph in post 11 above).

Okay, I did screw up my example just a little bit. It would be 7*1d6+stat+10 or 6*1d8+stat+10.
An 11th-level fighter using a Longbow, Sharpshooter feat, and using their action surge can shoot 6 d8 arrows in a round (and have their bonus action free for something else). One with a hand crossbow, Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert feats and using their action surge can shoot 7 d6 bolts in a round (7, not 8, because action surge does not give you an extra bonus action). They can take -5 to-hit on each shot and get +10 to damage. This is partially mitigated by the archery fighting style giving a +2 to-hit. They also can have additional ways of mitigating this penalty. Battlemasters can use the Precision Attack maneuver to add their maneuver dice to a looks-like-it-will-miss-by-just-a-little-bit roll. Samurai can use their Fighting Spirit ability (which takes their bonus action, making this better for the longbow build) to get advantage on their attacks for the round (or double-advantage, if they have the Elven Accuracy feat).

Yes, it is a 'once per rest' ability. Once that is expended, you are still shooting 3 arrows (or 4 bolts) per round, and can use the -5/+10 effect at-will. Do note that you are talking about casting a 5th level spell slot (that also will not encompass more than one encounter). There are trade-offs to every option.

Just to clarify, they're making 6 attacks with a bow when using Action Surge, because they have Extra Attack for 3 attacks as a Fighter, or 7 because XBE grants an additional attack as a Bonus Action (and allows them to get around the usual Loading property restriction)? So in general they're only making 3 or 4 attacks per round?

To be good beyond swift quiver? Hmmm. If you wanted to be a dedicated 'archery gish' build, Sharpshooter and a way to get advantage/bonus-to-hit would be a good start (example: Hexblade with Darkness and the Devil's Sight invocation). Or XBE and a way to get extra damage per attack (Hex or Hunter's Mark). Most of these require concentration and thus compete with Swift Quiver. Another option is Holy Weapon instead of Swift Quiver. Instead of 2 extra attacks, it gives you +2d8 damage per hit. The main advantage is that it lasts up to an hour, meaning it can potentially be cast once for more than one combat.

If my DM is sufficiently generous with the downtime feat training option he's using, I may be able to pull in Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, along with Darkness and Devil's Sight, though I know that any regular use of Darkness is liable to get books lobbed my way, due to events involving another player's use of that spell in a prior campaign (which were hilarious at the time, but did put a bit of a wrench in the works of his encounter design).

Assuming use of a Hand Crossbow, with Crossbow Expert and Swift Quiver I'd be dealing 4d6+4(Cha) per round, which, assuming all hit, gives an average damage of 30 per round (34 if I max Charisma, 26 if I don't raise my 17 to an 18 before getting these feats and Swift Quiver online). Add in Sharpshooter which would add 40 damage for 70 damage per round (74 with max Charisma, 66 if I don't raise my 17 to an 18 before this all comes online), again assuming all bolts hit, though they are less likely to do so, because of the -5. If I replace Swift Quiver with Holy Weapon, I'll be doing 3d6+3(Cha)+6d8 (+30 if I use Sharpshooter), for an average damage of 50 (53 with maxed Charisma, 47 if I don't up my current 17 Charisma to 18 first), or 80 with Sharpshooter (assuming all hit, 83 with maxed Charisma, 77 with 17 Charisma instead of 18). So in that case, Holy Weapon deals more damage, and lasts longer.

If I'm using a longbow, on the other hand, with Swift Quiver I'll deal 4d8+4(Dex) per round, which would give an average damage of 30 per round (if I bump my current 15 Dexterity to 16 using Revenant Blade, an ASI, or some other half Feat), or 70 per round with Sharpshooter. If I use Holy Weapon instead, I'll do 2d8+2(Dex)+4d8 per round, or 33 per round (same assumptions), or 73 with Sharpshooter. So again, Holy Weapon seems to deal more damage, on average. In fact, it seems that even the maximum and minimum damage is better with Holy Weapon, so perhaps that would be a preferable spell to take with Magical Secrets, unless there's some other non-concentration source of bonus damage I could tack on (which doesn't involve additional class levels). Interesting...though I should probably ask what sort of damage an archery focused build can usually pump out, both in terms of once per rest burst damage and sustained DPR?

Edit:
An update on the build - it looks like I am, for story reasons, going to be a Werewolf, though I'll be getting the abilities of the "template" progressively as I level up, and we're still to work out what comes online when (I'm assuming I'll get Multiattack before 10th level, probably between 5th and 8th, and that I won't get immunity to Non-Silvered or Non-Magic weapons until fairly late in the game). So, given that, are Blade Flourishes, the ability to use a Simple or Martial mêlée weapon with which I am proficient as a Spellcasting Focus for Bard spells, and Great Weapon Fighting more useful than the features of a Lore Bard, or should I go College of Lore?