spells that you would never want.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Would never want: Tenser's Transformation. At the level you can cast it, you can be Polymorphing into a Chuul to get (most likely) better stats and natural armor, with the added bonus of still being able to cast spells and not needing to waste a potion to activate it, and for minutes/level (Polymorph) instead of rounds/level (Transformation). Insult to injury; Polymorph is a 4th-level spell, and Transformation is a 6th.

This one doesn't even get the excuse of splatbook power creep; both of them are in the PHB, and Chuuls are in Monster Manual 1.

Why choose? Tenser's on a contingency for when you polymorph into a battle form that can't cast anyway.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Phoenix Fire is one of the worst spells in 3.5.
Higher cap Flame Strike but you die, lose a level and get resurrected. Awful for a level 7 spell.

[kinem]

DWC: I thought I found a winner in Energize Potion (BoED) but that beats it.

[AvatarVecna]

I'd like to see the game where having a CL of 10+Level isn't somewhat cheesy. Even if you're using reserves of strength on every spell and you have the ring of arcane might, an orange ioun stone, and a magic tattoo, that's 'only' +6, and using reserves on every spell usually indicates some form of cheese is already going on.

Consumptive Field caps out at half-base-CL, so even that only gets +10 at like...lvl 20, without additional assistance. It's some absurd shenanigans.

I guess if your DM allows the reading where Reserves Of Strength completely uncaps Consumptive Field, and your Cleric 7 can get enough kills in 10 rounds, then Consumptive Field could theoretically give NI CL, but that's...not something I would expect to fly at...most tables.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

DWC: I thought I found a winner in Energize Potion (BoED) but that beats it.

Yeah. There's only a couple sanctified spells that are really good, Phoenix Fire is just awful.

[unseenmage]

Once had a high power high level game where I refused to use Gate, Wish, Binding, Simulacrum, Miracle, or Genesis.

And that's just the short list of spells they're so good you dont actually want to use them.

[Kalkra]

Why choose? Tenser's on a contingency for when you polymorph into a battle form that can't cast anyway.

Why would you ever want to do that, though? What spell that costs you your casting is better than Draconic Polymorph? Unless you plan on UMDing a bunch of wands while transformed, and even then it's not great.

[Wildstag]

Meteor swarm disappoints me, it's not even good at doing AoE damage, let alone comparable to other 9th level spells.
Soul bind is pointless, why kill someone then trap their soul when you could just cast trap the soul and skip the bit where you have to fight them.

Oh and Alarm is definitely better than a mundane alarm, it trips if anything enters the AoE it tells you, there's no flying over the tripwire, silencing the bell etc.

If you're encountering a flying enemy at night that prefers flight and knows to avoid a tripwire, you're not really at the level that a mundane tripwire would be useful, and you're probably at the level that, like I have said in previous comments, the alarm is marginally useful. By then, you're at the level where you should just be hopping in a Tiny Hut instead and staying the night in that.

It's really not useful low level since you already need to spend the money on the mundane items, and when you're high enough level for it to last through all the nightwatches, you have better options for trivializing camping. And again, it doesn't help for protecting your things unless you do all your operations within 1 mile of your base. If you're travelling cross-country, it doesn't do anything helpful.

If a spell requires you to save the slot until the end of the day at a level when a wizard only has six spells to use all day, then it's an inefficient spell slot. You are reducing your effectiveness by 1/6th. At least with Sorcerer, by the time you can take Tiny Hut you've got 14 spells per day and 6 first level slots. As a level 6 wizard, you have a 3/3/2 breakdown. Holding on to 1/8 of your effectiveness is less bad but still not great. If you can use a mundane method to save you the efficiency, use it. A wand of alarm could be useful, I guess.

Basically, this whole argument about "Spells that you would never want" should hinge more on "what percentage of your total slots are you spending, and how little does that spell do?"

P.S. I guess technically my math is slightly off, because I didn't account for bonus spells, but assuming an 18 in Intelligence, you still only have 1 bonus first level spell per day. So you save half your spells per day at level 1, or a third at level 2 or one-fourth by level 6. All to do something that a couple skill checks can replicate (Listen, Spot, and a couple craft (Trapmaking) checks).

P.P.S. Also another spell I would never use, but I'd get as a cleric by default is Mass Cure Wounds. The equivalent level Mass Vigors are better.

[Quertus]

P.P.S. Also another spell I would never use, but I'd get as a cleric by default is Mass Cure Wounds. The equivalent level Mass Vigors are better.

Does more (out of combat) healing (unless you're a RSoP), yes. But can it cure Wounding effects? Pity there's not a Mass Faith Heal.

[Unavenger]

MCLW is mostly helpful for making sure an ally doesn't bleed out, because the MC*W spells are the only core ranged healing. They also have the dubious benefit of being an area-of-effect attack that also heals you, although if you're a cleric you have better ways of dealing with the undead. I've cast MCLW, but I wouldn't ever prep it if spontaneous conversion didn't exist.

[unseenmage]

OH! I remembered a useless one. Interplanetary Teleport.
Because Greater Teleport exists and has exactly zero trouble taking you to another planet.

[Unavenger]

OH! I remembered a useless one. Interplanetary Teleport.
Because Greater Teleport exists and has exactly zero trouble taking you to another planet.

IPTP only requires you to identify the target planet uniquely, while GTP requires that you describe the specific location on that planet reliably, which is a hard sell in a universe with no NASA photos.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

IPTP only requires you to identify the target planet uniquely, while GTP requires that you describe the specific location on that planet reliably, which is a hard sell in a universe with no NASA photos.

It does cost additional resources, but scrying is a thing.

Still less than a level 9 spell, though.

[Wildstag]

Does more (out of combat) healing (unless you're a RSoP), yes. But can it cure Wounding effects? Pity there's not a Mass Faith Heal.

I'll be honest, I love Faith Healing just so I can lord the healing over people. "Well if you wanted my healing, you'd better convert to the faith of Corellon Larethian" is just so funny, and is one of the best ways to be a "jerk zealous priest".

It really is a shame there's no modified forms of it, but I've met GMs that are willing to just make Faith Healing scale 1:1 with Cure Wounds, but not replace "Spontaneous Casting" with Faith Healing.

[Unavenger]

It does cost additional resources, but scrying is a thing.

Still less than a level 9 spell, though.

A thing that only targets specific creatures, not empty locations. Clairvoyance won't do it at that range either. Arcane Eye miiiiight be able to do it, since you can create one at a location you can see? It's not a gimme, though.

The real problem with IPTP isn't that what it does is easy. It's that what it does is mostly pointless.

[King of Nowhere]

Guards and wards.
You are supposed to use it to defend your lair, but sll the stuff it does is
1) hampering you more than your enemies, and
2) quite pointless anyway.

And you can also make it permanent! Imagine waking up in the night needing to use the toilet, only to find out that your corridors are full of fog, your stairs are blocked by webs, and the toilet door is locked magically.
And it's not like an attacker would have much trouble cutting down the webs or battering the door.

[El Dorado]

Distance Distortion. AD&D. A 5th level spell. It would let you use an earth elemental to double or halve the dimensions of an enclosed space (like a cave or hallway). It required you to first cast another 5th level spell: Conjure Elemental. Elementals were by default hostile to whoever summoned them but, when you declared you were going to cast Distance Distortion, the elemental wouldn't attack (presumably because of the fit of laughter it was experiencing) as it laid on the ground to compress or expand your room.

Why would you cast this? I mean, it was two 5th level slots. Back when wizards didn’t get bonus spells for high Intelligence. I think you could do more with a second elemental. . .

edit: clarity

[Telok]

Guards & wards and distance distortion are somebody's ad&d spells for base building. They got stuck in the books, probably because they were just collecting everything they had for the first hardbacks.

They're both downtime spells, both base defense spells, and both were written for somebody's base. It would probably be more obvious if they had a proper name stuck on the beginning like Melf or Rary.

To use them you build a base that has two paths, one obvious and the other secret or able to be completely closed off. Your base also needs depth to it's defenses, several layers of defenders. For distance distortion you want to use it twice, lengthen the obvious hallway and shorten your secret/sealed hallway. The survivors of the first layer of defense run down the short hallway while the attackers take the long route, buying you time to raise the alarm and prepare defenses. Guards & wards works pretty much the same way but you want some cross passages and stairs thrown in.

[Pex]

P.P.S. Also another spell I would never use, but I'd get as a cleric by default is Mass Cure Wounds. The equivalent level Mass Vigors are better.

Life Oracle makes the spell useful.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Why would you ever want to do that, though? What spell that costs you your casting is better than Draconic Polymorph? Unless you plan on UMDing a bunch of wands while transformed, and even then it's not great.

Again, you're not choosing. You cast draconic polymorph and then the contingency kicks off and you get Tenser's on top of it IF the form chosen can't cast spells. So in addition to the form's new physicals plus the extra boost from Draconic, you also get enhancement bonuses, extra hp attendant to the con change, and switched to full BAB.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Fierce Pride of the Beastlands.

It's a conjuration (summoning) [chaotic, good] spell that summons 2d4 celestial lions, followed by 1d4 celestial dire lions 10 minutes later. The duration is decent (10min/lv), so it might be nice as a 5th level spell.

The problem is, this is an 8th level spell. This means that the lions you summon will be fighting CR15 enemies, and probably missing all of their attacks.
And don't forget the 10 minute cast time. Just… ew.

I always wished someone had tried to address issues like this systematically. Do you know if anyone's tried this? (I haven't exactly read the entire board, so if I'm ignorant of something right in front of me in terms of a homebrew for this I'm being ignorant, hopefully not irritating)

[Zanos]

I don't think alarm is bad. What's the spot or search DC to notice a mundane tripwire? It isn't a 'real' trap so I'm guessing it's not all that high. The spell effects the entire area, not just one tripwire, and there is no check to notice it if you can't perceive magic. Even if you detect it, you can't go around it. You also can't configure a tripwire to mentally alert you with no sound.

[Wildstag]

I don't think alarm is bad. What's the spot or search DC to notice a mundane tripwire? It isn't a 'real' trap so I'm guessing it's not all that high. The spell effects the entire area, not just one tripwire, and there is no check to notice it if you can't perceive magic. Even if you detect it, you can't go around it. You also can't configure a tripwire to mentally alert you with no sound.

The spot or search dc could be dependent upon the stealth and craft checks rolled by the player, changing based on additional measures to hide it. Or, according to D20srd, it’d be a DC 20 to detect a simple mechanical trap before it is triggered. The section on traps goes on to say a simple trap is a snare, a trap triggered by a tripwire, or a large trap such as a pit. Seems to me that according to the game it is a “real” trap.

But I can’t say much else without repeating myself. At level 5 it can be dispelled. It is also made obsolete by level 5 but doesn’t last the full night until level 4.

[Zanos]

At level 5 it can be dispelled. It is also made obsolete by level 5 but doesn’t last the full night until level 4.

This implies that your enemies are spellcasters of at least 5th level, and prepare either detect magic or arcane sight specifically to detect and neutralize your warning system, and make a check with no retries to overcome your caster level, and ruin any attempts at stealth because all those spells have verbal components. I'd say mission accomplished then, for alarm.

I feel like the list of CR 5 threats this isn't an issue for is quite short.

EDIT: Dungeonscape Pg. 54 actually has rules for the trap that you described, and it gives you DC -5 listen check to be awoken by the trap, which is affected by distance, and it has a reflex save to avoid setting off in addition to the search check DC of 20 to notice it. The reflex save is 1/2 your craft(trapmaking) check, which probably isn't going to be more than DC 10 or so at low levels. If, like most characters, you don't have any ranks in craft(trapmaking), that would be half your take ten plus your intelligence modifier. If you're a learned wizard with 18 int, that's a DC 7 reflex save if they don't notice your trap to avoid having your throat slit in the night.

[Wildstag]

This implies that your enemies are spellcasters of at least 5th level, and prepare either detect magic or arcane sight specifically to detect and neutralize your warning system, and make a check with no retries to overcome your caster level, and ruin any attempts at stealth because dispel magic has verbal components. I'd say mission accomplished then, for alarm.

I feel like the list of CR 5 threats this isn't an issue for is quite short.

The strong suit of a spellcaster is threat nullification and risk reduction. If a caster is capable of casting a third level spell, they also get a bonus spell of that level. This means that they can use an area dispel before combat to reduce the efficiency of the defense. Not doing so would be beyond stupid. Your gm would have to be merciful or doing you a favor to do any less. And a mage that doesn’t detect magic before an encounter with a stationary enemy? {Scrubbed} If a pc wouldn’t do it, why would an npc not do it?

Also, dispel magic has a medium range. You can cast from 100 feet away, thus reducing the risk the verbal component creates.

And again, a mundane tripwire doesn’t disappear after 2-6 hours. The only level where Alarm isn’t overshadowed by a better option is level 4. Taking a spell so it can be useful for a single level is not worth it.

Edit: are people really playing with parties where the skill monkey doesn’t put ranks in Craft (Trapmaking)? Really? Why would you be arguing for an untrained check? {Scrubbed}

[Zanos]

The strong suit of a spellcaster is threat nullification and risk reduction. If a caster is capable of casting a third level spell, they also get a bonus spell of that level. This means that they can use an area dispel before combat to reduce the efficiency of the defense. Not doing so would be beyond stupid. Your gm would have to be merciful or doing you a favor to do any less. And a mage that doesn’t detect magic before an encounter with a stationary enemy? {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} If a pc wouldn’t do it, why would an npc not do it?

If your argument is for risk reduction, you've just forced a 5th level character to blow one of their most powerful options for the day on having an at best 50/50 shot of removing your alarm. Assuming of course your caster level for a buff you can cast in relatively safety wasn't buffed in any way. If they didn't cast another spell to confirm success, they have no way of knowing if it even succeeded.

Detect Magic takes three rounds of concentration and only has 60ft of range, so...

Also, dispel magic has a medium range. You can cast from 100 feet away, thus reducing the risk the verbal component creates.

You need line of sight, though. So you're limited by the range of your light. You could use a bullseye lantern, but then you're risking them noticing the light. More likely you'd either use a spell that grants 60 feet of darkvision, or be a race with 60 foot of darkvision, limiting you to 60ft. Convenient, since the range of detect magic is also only 60 feet. Noticing someone speaking in a strong enough voice to cast a spell with verbal components at 60 feet is a DC 6 listen check, with distance factored in.

And again, a mundane tripwire doesn’t disappear after 2-6 hours. The only level where Alarm isn’t overshadowed by a better option is level 4. Taking a spell so it can be useful for a single level is not worth it.

If you're class with a strictly limited list with no retraining options, sure. If you're a wizard, a 2nd level spell costs a piddling amount of gold. And it's not useless if it forces someone to blow a spell slot for not super great chance of removing it. I agree that alarm is mostly useless before level 4 or so, though. You could make it last 12 hours at level 3, if you took extend spell and had an open level 2 slot at the end of the day to prepare it in.

Edit: are people really playing with parties where the skill monkey doesn’t put ranks in Craft (Trapmaking)? Really? Why would you be arguing for an untrained check? {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I've literally never seen a character with ranks in it. Even if you were a skill monkey with 18 intelligence, which is uncommon for a role that usually has intelligence as a secondary stat, the DC would be 9. And every single monster in the monster manual can make a reflex save. Very few can cast dispel magic.

I like that you're suggesting I'm arguing in bad faith while also insisting that all CR 5 threats have access to dispel magic, and acting like dispel magic always succeeds against PCs.

Actually, now is probably a good time to mention that the trap in question is actually in a sidebar described by the Booby Trap feature of the Trapsmith, which probably means you can't make it at all if you aren't a Trapsmith.

[Wildstag]

Admitting the risk of further derailing this conversation, I will try to answer your questions as succinctly as I care to.

Firstly: a fifth level npc mage that has dispel magic would want any buffs or defenses gone immediately. Even if there are few that a 5th level party could use that would effect them overnight, any defenses you can eliminate in advance is one you don't have to deal with in the combat itself. Any tactic that would be advantageous for a pc to use should also be usable by, and expected of, an npc. That goes for literally everything. So just as you seem to argue that the tripwire could be disabled, so too should a mage be able to counter defenses in advance. It's as simple as that.

On top of that, Alarm is a first level spell, which means the DC to dispel it is a DC 12. A fifth level wizard attempting to dispel the Alarm would have a 70% chance of success, not a 50/50 shot like you suggest (1d20 + CL 5 means you succeed on a roll of a 7).

Secondly: the likelihood of having a level 2 slot at the end of the day as a 3rd level wizard is ridiculous. If you have any more than one encounter per day, you're going to use that spell so you don't turn into a crossbow miss chance simulator.

Thirdly: I have seen four pcs in the last five games I've played with it. Granted, one of those pcs was me, but even removing my own experiences with it, it is still a 60% rate that I've seen low-level characters with ranks in that skill. If you look at the Falgar link in my signature, that one had ranks in Trapmaking. It was useful to take ranks in when operating in the city of Sigil and with a beholder in the party (it was very greedy and envious, it made multiple attempts to steal my loot). And I'm actually in a game with a Trapsmith, next session is tonight.

Fourthly: Not once did I say that ALL CR 5 threats have access to dispel magic. The fifth level sample npc wizard has Dispel Magic in the spellbook, though not prepared. A lazy dm might just copy the block without modification. The GMs I have played with tend to tailor the statblocks to challenge the party. Since the npc wizard already has 2 scrolls of fireball at level 5, it's easy to switch out that prepared spell for another option.

Finally: Your point reminds me of how I dislike the redundancy of 3.5, that even something as simple as a tripwire is listed as a PrC option. {Scrubbed} However, your argument also overlooks the DMG's Chapter 3.

A trap can be either mechanical or magic in nature... A mechanical trap can be constructed by a PC through successful use of the Craft (trapmaking) skill (see Designing a Trap, page 74, and the skill description on page 70 of the Player's Handbook)... Characters who succeed on a DC 20 Search check detect a simple mechanical trap before it is triggered. (A simple trap is a snare, a trap triggered by a tripwire, or a large trap such as a pit.) DMG p67

I will concede one thing though, and that is that Craft checks take a minimum day to make, which is a tad absurd, since right now I can rig up a bell on twine in less than 20 minutes, since I already have a bell, some p-cord, a couple nails, and a hammer. It wouldn't be hard to spot in daylight, though without a light, it probably would be. But alas, D&D tries to abstract aspects of the real world and condense them into playable framework. So by RAW a party doesn't get full night defenses save for Spot and Listen until level 4, and mundane methods until level 6. That's actually kinda disappointing to realize, just another way mundane methods are shafted by the efficiency of magic. What hurts more is that the components of Alarm require the same things you'd use in a bell-tripwire, but you can't actually do it by RAW in less than a day until level 6 with a specific PrC that provides an ability no other PrC does.

I guess I argued my way into a corner, if only because Craft checks are so limiting. I'd still argue that the spell isn't really helpful until level 4 and only level 4, or in a campaign where you operate all within 1 mile radius of your home base. It would be better as a cantrip, to be honest. It'd give a lot for a cantrip, but as a first level spell, the opportunity cost of preparing it is too great.

P.S.

To add to spells I'd never want, I don't really see a use for Glaze Lock, since it doesn't last long enough for resting. Discern Bloodline seems kinda boring, it's Will Save is low enough that it wouldn't really help by the time that template stacking really starts. An honorable mention is Nybor's Joyful Voyage, which teleports another person away from you (willing or unwilling), but is a touch spell for sorcerers and wizards. It was created to teleport obnoxious people away, and the "joy" in the name is the caster's joy at the annoyance's departure.

[Kalkra]

At fifth level you get Skull Watch, is probably just better than Alarm, particularly if your DM lets you carry the skull around with you. Also, hitting a party with an area dispel runs the risk of alerting them if they have something like Continual Flame going.

Also, for spells that you never want, Life Bolt. Out-damaged by Scorching Ray, only hits undead, and does nonlethal damage to you. Also, Blight, which is just totally useless.

[Zanos]

Firstly: a fifth level npc mage that has dispel magic would want any buffs or defenses gone immediately. Even if there are few that a 5th level party could use that would effect them overnight, any defenses you can eliminate in advance is one you don't have to deal with in the combat itself. Any tactic that would be advantageous for a pc to use should also be usable by, and expected of, an npc. That goes for literally everything. So just as you seem to argue that the tripwire could be disabled, so too should a mage be able to counter defenses in advance. It's as simple as that.

I'm not arguing it's an illogical desire, I'm arguing it is not the foolproof strategy you describe.

On top of that, Alarm is a first level spell, which means the DC to dispel it is a DC 12. A fifth level wizard attempting to dispel the Alarm would have a 70% chance of success, not a 50/50 shot like you suggest (1d20 + CL 5 means you succeed on a roll of a 7).

You are extraordinarily incorrect. The DC to dispel is based on caster level. Assuming the party is fifth level, since that's the level you said alarm becomes irrelevant, the DC is 16. This is assuming the caster isn't using any feats, items, or spells to augment their caster level, all of which are easier to do when you are making camp. You could, for example, use a 500gp pair of gloves of the arcanist to increase any 1st level spells caster level by 2, increasing the DC to 18. But we'll assume they haven't taken any of those very easy measures to be generous, and against an equal level party, the dispel check is 50/50.

Secondly: the likelihood of having a level 2 slot at the end of the day as a 3rd level wizard is ridiculous. If you have any more than one encounter per day, you're going to use that spell so you don't turn into a crossbow miss chance simulator.

That depends on your intelligence modifier, your choice of school specialization, and other associated level choices. It also depends on what happened during the day, because during overland travel where camping is relevant in campaigns I've played, we very rarely had an encounter every day. I believe there's even an old joke that overland travel takes exactly as long as needed to have precisely one random encounter. In any case, you can use the gloves above, which are dirt cheap and good on pretty much any low level wizard, to add 4 hours to the duration of alarm, making it relevant from level 2 without build investment from a 1st level slot.

Thirdly: I have seen four pcs in the last five games I've played with it. Granted, one of those pcs was me, but even removing my own experiences with it, it is still a 60% rate that I've seen low-level characters with ranks in that skill. If you look at the Falgar link in my signature, that one had ranks in Trapmaking. It was useful to take ranks in when operating in the city of Sigil and with a beholder in the party (it was very greedy and envious, it made multiple attempts to steal my loot). And I'm actually in a game with a Trapsmith, next session is tonight.

I don't have a script to rip every single build ever made in 3.5, so I'll just have to assume that we run in different circles. Regardless, even assuming maximum ranks and that you are a trapsmith, when you hit level 6 your craft check modifier is probably around +20 or so. I don't fancy your odds of using a DC 15 reflex save trap as your primary defense of your campsite, considering that the average CR 6 threat has a reflex save of 6.85. Now when you hit level 8 and the DC becomes equal to your craft result these are pretty damn good DC wise, but now we're hitting the level were defending a campsite is becoming less relevant.

Fourthly: Not once did I say that ALL CR 5 threats have access to dispel magic. The fifth level sample npc wizard has Dispel Magic in the spellbook, though not prepared. A lazy dm might just copy the block without modification. The GMs I have played with tend to tailor the statblocks to challenge the party. Since the npc wizard already has 2 scrolls of fireball at level 5, it's easy to switch out that prepared spell for another option.

Sure, the sample fifth level wizard has dispel. What portion of your CR5 encounters are 5th level wizards? I'm just arguing that alarm is effective against far more threats than a tripwire trap is, because few CR5 threats can reliably dispel an alarm, while nearly all of them have a good chance of making a DC 7-15 reflex save without expending any resources.

Finally: Your point reminds me of how I dislike the redundancy of 3.5, that even something as simple as a tripwire is listed as a PrC option. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

The booby traps are presented explicitly as a cheap option for trapsmiths. Typically, traps are much more expensive. The lack of cost effectiveness of traps for PCs is a deliberate choice of the designers that trapsmith was designed to partially circumvent. It doesn't make sense if you apply real world logic, but makes sense from a game design standpoint. If you're arguing that you should be able to make an item that's explicitly a PrCs class feature without being a member of that PrC, that seems a bit braindead to me. Logically, should you be able to set up a basic tripwire with a bell and attach it to some trees or sticks? Sure. But I would make it measurably worse than a real trapsmiths alarm trap.

However, your argument also overlooks the DMG's Chapter 3.

If you're referring to the DMG saying a tripwire is a simple trap, it provides no other information on the saving throw, cost, or effects of such a trap.

I will concede one thing though, and that is that Craft checks take a minimum day to make, which is a tad absurd, since right now I can rig up a bell on twine in less than 20 minutes, since I already have a bell, some p-cord, a couple nails, and a hammer. It wouldn't be hard to spot in daylight, though without a light, it probably would be. But alas, D&D tries to abstract aspects of the real world and condense them into playable framework. So by RAW a party doesn't get full night defenses save for Spot and Listen until level 4, and mundane methods until level 6. That's actually kinda disappointing to realize, just another way mundane methods are shafted by the efficiency of magic. What hurts more is that the components of Alarm require the same things you'd use in a bell-tripwire, but you can't actually do it by RAW in less than a day until level 6 with a specific PrC that provides an ability no other PrC does.

I guess I argued my way into a corner, if only because Craft checks are so limiting. I'd still argue that the spell isn't really helpful until level 4 and only level 4, or in a campaign where you operate all within 1 mile radius of your home base. It would be better as a cantrip, to be honest. It'd give a lot for a cantrip, but as a first level spell, the opportunity cost of preparing it is too great.

You're actually fine here. You can craft the alarms in advance and they only cost 1gp per 10 feet and are reusable. They only take 1 round per 10 feet to set up. So you should be able to make a pile of them with a single week of crafting.

[Wildstag]

The DC to dispel is based on caster level. Assuming the party is fifth level, since that's the level you said alarm becomes irrelevant, the DC is 16. This is assuming the caster isn't using any feats, items, or spells to augment their caster level, all of which are easier to do when you are making camp.

So oof on the misread of the line, that is indeed my bad. However, again, you continue to make the bold assumption that options available to the pcs are not available to the npcs. I see no reason why a wizard that is attacking the party can't have their own CL increasing items or feats or whatever. All of your arguments rely on ONLY the players having those options.

It also depends on what happened during the day, because during overland travel where camping is relevant in campaigns I've played, we very rarely had an encounter every day. I believe there's even an old joke that overland travel takes exactly as long as needed to have precisely one random encounter.

Yeah, this boils down to what different kinds of GMs we play with. I have played almost exclusively with GMs that roll to determine if there will be a random encounter and then to determine what it is, and the frequency of the rolls for "yes or no encounter" is dependent on the terrain we are in and the setting details. If your GMs choose to make overland travel trivial, that is an failing of your GM, not of the game as a whole. DMG 95 has a table for chance of wilderness encounter per hour. If you're actually rolling every hour of travel, and you're traveling for a twelve hour day in heavily traveled terrain, then you should realistically face at least one encounter with a fair chance for a second on a given day. Depending on the condition after the first encounter, I might actually increase the chance of one. If a group of people look injured, they'll look like easier targets than a strong and healthy group.

I don't have a script to rip every single build ever made in 3.5, so I'll just have to assume that we run in different circles. Regardless, even assuming maximum ranks and that you are a trapsmith, when you hit level 6 your craft check modifier is probably around +20 or so. I don't fancy your odds of using a DC 15 reflex save trap as your primary defense of your campsite, considering that the average CR 6 threat has a reflex save of 6.85.

Not every encounter you face, especially random encounters, is going to be equal or greater than your character level. Sometimes you'll have weaker encounters that just drain resources. In fact, it's better when they're weaker because you're not giving out large chunks of exp constantly.

If you read through the entire discussion, I have not once made the claim that the primary defense should be a bell at the end of a cord tied to a campsite perimeter object. Literally not even once. It is a supplement, an additional method to defend yourself. Presumably you would have other means of defense, but I prefer options that actually last the entire night instead of ones that last only half the night. Magic should not be used to replace mundane options, only to supplement them, especially if the duration of the magic is not sufficiently close to the duration the effect is needed. As an example, you'd never use the Find Traps spell as a substitute for rogue, since you can't disable traps with the spell.

That's also another spell I'd never want, and would never use. The cleric will never have a better Search check than a trapfinder. I probably already mentioned it though, or someone else might have. At the very least, I don't see any uses for it.