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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default spells that you would never want.

    like the title says: spells that you see as a complete waste of time and why.
    for me it is most blasting/damage spells. yes, even magic missile. why? because direct damage spells take a lot of effort to make worth while, and you are better off doing save or suck in my own opinion.
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    Troacctid's Avatar

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Creeping doom and insect plague are both pretty janky. Very bad rate. Bigby's interposing hand is like, what if shield were four levels higher, but only applied against one enemy at a time? All three of these were nerfed hard in the 3.5 update and just...did not survive.

    Meanwhile, we've got Leomund's trap, which does straight-up nothing and is proud of it. No PC has ever cast this spell before. It literally has no purpose except to be a mildly annoying prank.

    Quote Originally Posted by vasilidor View Post
    for me it is most blasting/damage spells. yes, even magic missile. why? because direct damage spells take a lot of effort to make worth while, and you are better off doing save or suck in my own opinion.
    What's wrong with blasting spells? I'm pretty sure they are the #1 most effective delivery source for damage, like, in the entire game. It's not hard at all to do 150+ damage out of a 3rd-level slot.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    What's wrong with blasting spells? I'm pretty sure they are the #1 most effective delivery source for damage, like, in the entire game. It's not hard at all to do 150+ damage out of a 3rd-level slot.
    I enjoy disintegrating things as much as the next guy, but it's often faster and more efficient to effectively disable a target and then finish it off than to straight up damage it to death. Feeblemind got my party out of a really sticky situation when one of the player's former characters, a summoner who became an NPC after being retired, returned as an enemy later on.

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    There are too many bad spells to mention here! When I have my books in front of me, maybe I will find some.
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    I enjoy disintegrating things as much as the next guy, but it's often faster and more efficient to effectively disable a target and then finish it off than to straight up damage it to death. Feeblemind got my party out of a really sticky situation when one of the player's former characters, a summoner who became an NPC after being retired, returned as an enemy later on.
    "A" target.

    When you have to clear hundreds of pesky elves out of Lothlórien, you punch fireballs into treetops from 700' away.

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    There's a lot of spells that aren't technically useless, but would basically never get prepared even by specialists because they're too niche.

    Meteor Swarm is a good example - it's got absurd range and area, but the damage is ****, particularly for your level. Even assuming that every target fails their save, this is something you're using to wipe out a solid portion of a very low-level army...but you're a wizard with 9th lvl spells. That's not exactly a challenge for you, it's something your summon deals with while you're on your way to confront the real danger.

    Soul Bind is another spell with a very particular use that I don't really see a lot of call for in my personal adventuring. You know what kinda thing I wanna spend my 9th lvl slots on? Some way of spending a solid chunk of change to maybe theoretically screw over an enemy I've already killed. And yeah, if your DM has a habit of rezzing the bad guys to bring them back later (bigger and badder than ever), this has some value, sure. But that doesn't really line up with my game experience.

    Power Word Kill is another weird one I'd probably never prepare. Oh yeah, I'd just love to cast a Mind-Affecting, SR Yes "no save just die" spell that is basically guaranteed to work against an opponent who's basically one round from death anyway, and is basically guaranteed to fail against anybody who isn't doing the low-epic equivalent of knocking on death's door.


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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    Power Word Kill is another weird one I'd probably never prepare. Oh yeah, I'd just love to cast a Mind-Affecting, SR Yes "no save just die" spell that is basically guaranteed to work against an opponent who's basically one round from death anyway, and is basically guaranteed to fail against anybody who isn't doing the low-epic equivalent of knocking on death's door.
    I used quickened true casting + power word kill to stop an NPC kill-stealing Demogorgon so it's not useless - I agree that it is niche and other spells are far better though.

    A lot of the choice between save-or lose and damage spells comes down to how high you can pump save DCs. In a reasonably typical GitP 32pt buy campaign with moderate optimisation a save or Lose is likely to have a DC that gives a fair chance of affecting opponents with the relevant save as their good save.
    In a more typical 28pt home campaign (we play 28 because that was the LG standard and is described as "high-powered" in the PHB) save-or-lose and a lot less worth casting at opponents when you know it's their good save (e.g. will save against clerics) - it's a waste of a spell.
    In the rare, but they exist "by the book" 25pt campaign with low to mid optimisation you are getting close to the 1st and 2nd Ed rule of "go by when the spell does if they make their save - if they fail it is a bonus". At this point AoE save-for-half spells are often the best use of resources (though not to the point they were in 1st and 2nd Ed).

    I completely agree on Bigby's Interposing Hand.

    And I would add Circle of Death and Undeath to Death to the list - it's a bad spell even before you discover the 9HD cap...

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Power Word: Kill worked a lot better in 1e/2e.

    A 20th level M-U (Wizard) with Con:16 (or anything higher) would have ~58 hitpoints. Even with good rolls, he'd be barely over the 60hp limit. And getting immunity was much harder.
    1 segment casting time so it can't be interrupted. He's dead.

    Like with many other spells, they failed to consider their own ruleset when adapting to 3.0/3.5
    Last edited by Elkad; 2020-08-04 at 10:27 AM.

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    Devil

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    While not completely useless, Beget Bogun is another one that didn't survive the conversion to 3.5, because Control Plants got more or less replaced by Command Plants, but the requirements for creating a bogun didn't change, so you now need an 8th-level spell to make one. While boguns are nice, you could be doing much better things once you reach that level.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Fierce Pride of the Beastlands.

    It's a conjuration (summoning) [chaotic, good] spell that summons 2d4 celestial lions, followed by 1d4 celestial dire lions 10 minutes later. The duration is decent (10min/lv), so it might be nice as a 5th level spell.

    The problem is, this is an 8th level spell. This means that the lions you summon will be fighting CR15 enemies, and probably missing all of their attacks.
    And don't forget the 10 minute cast time. Just… ew.

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Crystalline Memories (Pg. 100 Complete Mage)

    This one is quite the stinker. It's a super niche spell that can be proxied for a bunch of different ways. Too bad, because it is thematically striking.

    The Swift Action casting time and 3 full round "concentration" time to finalize the spell is awkward as hell.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Speak with plants.

    Mundane plants are mindless and have no useful senses. So unless you need to know what the climate has been like very unlikely to help.

    Plant creatures overwhelmingly fall into 2 categories: things that eat people and don’t care to chat and things that have languages, can probably speak common, and if not Sylvan (which most druids and rangers know) and would definitely be no harder to chat with with Tongues, which is often lower level, longer duration and not personal (so you can cast it on the party face).

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    I enjoy disintegrating things as much as the next guy, but it's often faster and more efficient to effectively disable a target and then finish it off than to straight up damage it to death. Feeblemind got my party out of a really sticky situation when one of the player's former characters, a summoner who became an NPC after being retired, returned as an enemy later on.
    Is there a more disabling condition than "dead" that I don't know about?

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Meanwhile, we've got Leomund's trap, which does straight-up nothing and is proud of it. No PC has ever cast this spell before. It literally has no purpose except to be a mildly annoying prank.
    Sounds like it's a trap spell, heheh.

    Pathfinder has a lot of these kinds of noob-trap spells. I was talking about Youthful Appearance with a guy last night and it's just terrible, a flavorful spell that accomplishes nothing a disguise or a little wrinkle-hiding makeup can't do.

    Alarm is one of those spells that annoys me. Its material components work well for just making a mundane trap that actually lasts the full night. Levels 1-3 your spell won't last the full night, but a string and bell. It's just so pointless, it actually confuses me why anyone would take it.

    Basically any of those spells that duplicate a simple mundane trick that costs less than 5 gp to perform and can be used repeatedly, Alarm is just the most obvious to me.

    Oh, and in 3.5, those spells that deal with addiction. I don't think I've ever seen a GM implement addiction in a game, so why would I want to ever use the spell Addiction.

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Flame arrow. It was already a bit niche in ad&d but sort of died in 3.5

    In ad&d it did the fire arrows thing and had an ok direct damage option. You had henchies and hires to use the fire arrows up and doing things like lighting a goblin camp on fire at night were expected. Plus you might not be able to learn something like fireball.

    3.5 it just has the fire arrow option, fireball and lightning bolt are safe for indoor use, and casters get easy spell access. There is also the fact that most groups will have zero or one actual bow users, so you'll never actually use all the arrows.

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Most cantrips fall in this category for me. If I'm a prepared caster, it's pretty much all detect magic in 0 level slots and if I'm spontaneous only the top few options are finding their way into my known spells. The rest varies between trash and trash-light.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Alarm is one of those spells that annoys me. Its material components work well for just making a mundane trap that actually lasts the full night. Levels 1-3 your spell won't last the full night, but a string and bell. It's just so pointless, it actually confuses me why anyone would take it.
    This is actually a very usefull spell. Having these material components means you can fetch those out of you component pouch to set the mundane alarm without having to go mundane 'bell shoping' beforehand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beheld View Post
    Wholly Crap! Did someone just make an argument based on the actual rules text! You clearly don't belong in this thread.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    AvatarVecna's Avatar

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Most cantrips fall in this category for me. If I'm a prepared caster, it's pretty much all detect magic in 0 level slots and if I'm spontaneous only the top few options are finding their way into my known spells. The rest varies between trash and trash-light.
    PF made cantrips af-will. That didn't make them OP, which tells you all you need to know really.


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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Is there a more disabling condition than "dead" that I don't know about?
    Mind-controlled.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Is there a more disabling condition than "dead" that I don't know about?
    One or two, but that's not the point. I'm merely suggesting that other disabling conditions are much easier to apply than "dead," and can then make applying the "dead" condition to your target much easier. You're going to have a much easier time of winning a fight against something that isn't capable of fighting back. I certainly wouldn't go to such an extent as vasilidor and say that you should never learn or cast any damaging spell ever and, in fact, encounters are probably designed with the expectation that you will be blasting your opponents to death and you can certainly get by on fireballs and lightning bolts, but status effects make things go much more smoothly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Alarm is one of those spells that annoys me. Its material components work well for just making a mundane trap that actually lasts the full night. Levels 1-3 your spell won't last the full night, but a string and bell. It's just so pointless, it actually confuses me why anyone would take it.
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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Never want because they suck mechanically (speak with plants, phantom trap, etc.) or never want because I find the actual idea of using them horrific regardless of efficacy (animate dead, mindrape, etc.)?
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    Devil

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edea View Post
    Never want because they suck mechanically (speak with plants, phantom trap, etc.) or never want because I find the actual idea of using them horrific regardless of efficacy (animate dead, mindrape, etc.)?
    You find the idea of Animate Dead horrific? I mean, I get that dead people are icky, but a lot of spells are for the express purpose of making dead people. I wouldn't consider it any worse than the aftermath of a Fireball, for instance. Or stabbing somebody with a sword, for that matter. Heck, if you use the Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity combo, it'll be tough to tell you apart from a zombie after a certain point.

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalkra View Post
    You find the idea of Animate Dead horrific? I mean, I get that dead people are icky, but a lot of spells are for the express purpose of making dead people. I wouldn't consider it any worse than the aftermath of a Fireball, for instance. Or stabbing somebody with a sword, for that matter. Heck, if you use the Delay Death + Beastland Ferocity combo, it'll be tough to tell you apart from a zombie after a certain point.
    I mean...yeah? I don't think I'd ever want to forcefully reanimate a dead body like that. Pretty sure that spell's got the [Evil] descriptor (most of the BoVD is nasty enough I don't keep that splat on my bookshelf, but I had it to reference for making villains).

    This is why when I play a specialist wizard I generally ban enchantment and necromancy, even if that's sub-optimal; those spells are, to me, kind-of gross. It's also a big reason why I've been wanting to homebrew 'cast from list' classes, as Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are both a bit creepy to me and Warmage suffers design issues.
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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    I'll mention contagion, since it's a 3rd/4th level touch spell that a ton of stuff is immune to that inflicts a piddling amount of ability damage and then forces regular saving throws vs a disease, which won't matter for PCs because anything they fight probably isn't going to care that it has to make another save in 24 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Meanwhile, we've got Leomund's trap, which does straight-up nothing and is proud of it. No PC has ever cast this spell before. It literally has no purpose except to be a mildly annoying prank.
    The weird thing is that it has no save and no (disbelief) tag, so it seems that nothing other than setting it off can convince someone the object in question is not trapped. Seems to be mostly for trolling PCs, since even if you do spend a bunch of time attempting to disarm the 'trap', eventually you'll just get something disposable to set it off intentionally.

    What's wrong with blasting spells? I'm pretty sure they are the #1 most effective delivery source for damage, like, in the entire game. It's not hard at all to do 150+ damage out of a 3rd-level slot.
    Even without optimization damage gets a bad rap. Dead creatures can't take actions, after all. Magic missile does little damage but it's very good at taking out incorporeal foes at lower levels, since they tend to have low hit points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edea View Post
    I mean...yeah? I don't think I'd ever want to forcefully reanimate a dead body like that. Pretty sure that spell's got the [Evil] descriptor (most of the BoVD is nasty enough I don't keep that splat on my bookshelf, but I had it to reference for making villains).
    Personally I think animate dead is pretty tame considering the horrific stuff adventurers routinely encounter, or just the horrors of warfare in general. And it's in the core book, not BoVD. In character objections to animate dead should, IMO, be based on culture expectations of the treatment of the dead, or a metaphysical objection to casting [Evil] spells. Complaining about fighting next to a skeleton is kind of trite when you disemboweled a guy and then rifled through his pockets yesterday.

    As mentioned above fireball might not be [Evil], but can you ever really get the smell of burning flesh out of your nose after killing a bunch of goblins with it? Probably not.
    Last edited by Zanos; 2020-08-04 at 09:34 PM.
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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wildstag View Post
    Alarm is one of those spells that annoys me. Its material components work well for just making a mundane trap that actually lasts the full night. Levels 1-3 your spell won't last the full night, but a string and bell. It's just so pointless, it actually confuses me why anyone would take it.

    Basically any of those spells that duplicate a simple mundane trick that costs less than 5 gp to perform and can be used repeatedly, Alarm is just the most obvious to me.
    Alarm is a spell that exists to be made Permanent or set up as part of a resetting trap. That doesn't make it bad for its purpose, just for adventuring at low levels. By level 8 it's still handy for adventuring since you can use it to get silent alarm pings in a situation where you want to know WTF is going on, but don't want other people to know that you know.

    Now, for a good example of a spell that a player will likely never want (though is great fodder for a serial killer or mobster or something): Discern Next of Kin.

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Sticks and Stones. A single 2 HD skeleton from a 3rd level slot is meh. Shame, I like the visual.
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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaern View Post
    One or two, but that's not the point. I'm merely suggesting that other disabling conditions are much easier to apply than "dead," and can then make applying the "dead" condition to your target much easier. You're going to have a much easier time of winning a fight against something that isn't capable of fighting back. I certainly wouldn't go to such an extent as vasilidor and say that you should never learn or cast any damaging spell ever and, in fact, encounters are probably designed with the expectation that you will be blasting your opponents to death and you can certainly get by on fireballs and lightning bolts, but status effects make things go much more smoothly.
    So you're a sorcerer in a 6th-level dungeon, and your DM, rolling on the random encounter table (DMG 79), pits you against 3 gnolls and 2 hyenas in one room, followed by 1 wereboar and 3 boars, then 3 troglodytes and 2 monitor lizards, and finally, 3 locust swarms. Lucky you, you came equipped with stinking cloud, which applies a disabling condition to enemies. Most of these enemies are only about 50/50 to save, and on a failure, they're unable to act for 1d4+1 rounds. Great! On a success, of course, they are unaffected.

    Meanwhile, your buddy is also a sorcerer, but she has fireball instead, the poor sap. Her spell deals an average of 21 damage on a failed save, which...kills these enemies in one shot. Huh, okay, not bad. Killing them probably is better than nauseating them for 1d4+1 rounds. But aha! What if they pass the save? Well...they still take half damage, which means the second fireball is guaranteed to kill them on round 2. Hmm.

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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzerdrix View Post
    Sticks and Stones. A single 2 HD skeleton from a 3rd level slot is meh. Shame, I like the visual.
    It deals negative levels, which means it can permanently generate wighrs (albeit with a 1-day wait). Wightpocalypse kicked off wofh a 2nd lvl spell has some use.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Xumtiil View Post
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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Meanwhile, we've got Leomund's trap, which does straight-up nothing and is proud of it. No PC has ever cast this spell before. It literally has no purpose except to be a mildly annoying prank.
    Is it wrong that now I want to create a villain whose entire purpose is to be a mildly annoying prankster?
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    Default Re: spells that you would never want.

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    It deals negative levels, which means it can permanently generate wighrs (albeit with a 1-day wait). Wightpocalypse kicked off wofh a 2nd lvl spell has some use.
    3rd level. I'd rather fell drain a few chickens than have Sticks and Stones as a known spell.
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