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2020-08-04, 10:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: spells that you would never want.
That only means you can't cast it as a Cleric of a Good god. Relying on the alignment tags assigned to various things as any kind of morality is a path that leads only to madness. Also, it's not like you have to animate human (or even intelligent) corpses. Hard to see how "zombie bear" represents any great moral violation.
I like how you're trying to describe "I can spend twice as many spell slots to solve a problem" as a win for Fireball. Your whole post is basically "how contrived can I get away with my examples being", but that really takes the cake.
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2020-08-04, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: spells that you would never want.
The books are pretty clear that casting [Evil] spells is an Evil act. D&D has objective material morality, which means doing Evil actively makes the world a worst place to be in, and contains creatures that are physically composed of manifest Evil.
I like how you're trying to describe "I can spend twice as many spell slots to solve a problem" as a win for Fireball. Your whole post is basically "how contrived can I get away with my examples being", but that really takes the cake.If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2020-08-04, 10:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Frankly, that Fireball did solve the problem better. How are you gonna finish off those inside the Stinking Cloud? Your whole party is probably also living creatures, and while the enemies are disabled, your melee characters also have a problem with that nausea and targets being obscured, even if it's a Fort save. Your ranged characters can't do jack, because it's still a Fog Cloud at heart and thus you can't do anything either.
Fireball has no after-effects, and even on a successful save, leaves an enemy close enough to death to kill in one hit, which means other party members can move in and mop them up without much trouble.Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2020-08-04, 10:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: spells that you would never want.
Some of the books are clear on that. Those books are also clear that things like "using tranquilizers" are Evil acts. Those books are canon, but caring about them makes the game stupid. Other books portray necromancy as simply dangerous, in the same way that nuclear power or industrial machinery is dangerous in the real world.
Stinking cloud in the example doesn't actually solve the problem, though. It makes the problem easier to solve.
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2020-08-04, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2020-08-04, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: spells that you would never want.
I prefer slow to stinking cloud anyway since it doesn't potentially disable allies as well. It's not quite as debilitating, but it's also not quite as annoying to work around what with the whole fog thing.
Damage is underrated though.Last edited by Temotei; 2020-08-04 at 11:09 PM.
Homebrew
Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).
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2020-08-04, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2018
Re: spells that you would never want.
Yeah, the devs hate Necromancy. All the good PrCs and whatnot require you to be evil, or at least non-good, spells like Animate Dead have the [Evil] tag, etc.
Now sure, in a system with objective morality you can have things which are victimless but still immoral, but you need to provide some sort of explanation, and that explanation needs to be applied universally. Like, whatever's wrong with Necromancy probably also exists in other things which aren't explicitly called out as evil, and which PCs probably do quite frequently.
Now, if undead just give you overwhelming squick, that's a personal thing. But from a purely utilitarian standpoint, casting Animate Dead in no different than casting Animate Objects, both of which are completely benign. Not that such things would matter to an ordinary murderhobo.
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2020-08-04, 11:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: spells that you would never want.
Slow is a lot less impressive than it used to be. It doesn't really do anything against ranged enemies or casters, and those are the most dangerous enemies. That said, you're not wrong that Stinking Cloud isn't necessarily the best pick. Deep Slumber does even better, particularly because it targets Will. Though it falls off fast.
No, it didn't, because the enemies passed their saves (remember, the DC on Fireball and Stinking Cloud is exactly the same). At which point the rest of your party got to mop them up. And, no, Fireball didn't help, because the enemies you hand-picked to prove your point were dying in one hit anyway. A Gnoll has 11 HP. A 1st level Fighter one-shots it on a below average damage roll.
But let's imagine you were fighting an enemy which does not fold to a stiff breeze. Perhaps the CR 6 Annis. At 45 HP, it's still standing after two failed saves against Fireball. If it passes its saves you could very easily spend your entire allotment of 3rd level spells without killing it. Though, actually, it has Spell Resistance, which Fireball checks and Stinking Cloud doesn't. Let's try again. Maybe the enemy is a Bralani. Wait, no, that has SR and resists fire. It could be Girallon. That Fireball might actually do something against, though it can still fail two saves and live to talk about it (and it's Ref is actually higher than its Fort).
The problem is that "objective morality" is nonsense. Morality is fundamentally subjective. If someone showed up, said that they created the universe, and demanded that you change your opinion on party hats for dogs on that basis, it wouldn't be right for you to do so. Saying that "this spell says that ability is in the same category of things as murder" is just a weird appeal to authority.
That said, I expect this conversation will rapidly run out to the edge of what's allowed here and past it, so having said my bit I'm going to let things lie.Last edited by NigelWalmsley; 2020-08-04 at 11:22 PM.
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2020-08-04, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2012
Re: spells that you would never want.
Circle of death and its partner in crime undeath to death. You have a set radius of 40 feet burst affecting a variable number of HD in creatures, but not any with 10 or more HD. You're not likely to get the full effect even when you first start casting it, and to add insult to injury it costs money. Cloudkill is free. If you have that many creatures with that few HD to kill, you might as well use an area blast.
Weird is another one. It's mind affecting and fear as a 9th, when immunity abounds. Just like phantasmal killer it's will negates, then fortitude partial. I'd rather use wail of the banshee, and that's saying something.
False peacebond doesn't make sense. It's presumably supposed to be used to make someone think you cast peacebond, but leaving you available to attack. This requires someone trust you enough to keep your own weapon without hitting you with their own peacebond/other effect, and would still be identifiable as false peacebond so doesn't seem to be better than simply lying.Kolyarut Avatar by Potatocubed.
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2020-08-04, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Minnesota
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Oh, legend lore. I really don't like legend lore. Material component, focus (albeit cheap), long casting time, and vague effects, in addition to being 6th level for Sor/Wiz. A bard only potentially gets it a level earlier, too, so it being 4th level for them doesn't really help.
Okay treasure for the DM to hand out as a scroll or wand (crafted by a bard), though. Might still want to sell it in that case...Last edited by Temotei; 2020-08-04 at 11:33 PM.
Homebrew
Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).
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2020-08-04, 11:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: spells that you would never want.
For me it is Prismatic Ray. It is a 5th level spell that only affects a single opponent of 6 HD or lower. I mean, if the opponent only has 6 HD there are probably more efficient ways to deal with that opponent than a 5th level spell slot.
Pity really since it is a colourful spell.
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2020-08-05, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: spells that you would never want.
They made it Evil but I don't think they hate it. If they really hated it animate dead would be as bad as create undead. On the contrary, animate dead is among the most powerful effects in the game, potentially giving you 4x your HD in facesmash that doesn't require any magical upkeep. With desecrate you can trot around two skeletons that each have the HP of a 14 con barbarian of twice your level, and the same BAB as a barbarian of your level. They work in antimagic fields and can even use weapons, plus they probably have hilarious strength scores if you used something big and tough like a troll or giant or outsider. Even if you can't find suitable corpses you can still animate some bloodhulks or whatever. In either case they can't be dispelled and continue to work in an antimagic field, and even if someone usurps control they have to succeed an opposed charisma check. Sure most regular people don't like corpses that walk around and kill people for you, but that's nothing a take 20 disguise or extra dimensional storage can't solve.
And then if you really want to cheese it up, non-intelligent undead get no save against command undead, which lasts days/level.
It's vague but does provide some guidelines, with each lore result directing you to detailed information, then to information on its location, then information on the actual thing. I'm not sure it's a good spell from a game design perspective because it allows any 11th level wizard with their hands on a 'mysterious item' to determine what it is in at most 40 minutes, but from a pure power perspective it's quite a potent effect, since it can get you information that has been forever lost or never even known by anyone else.Last edited by Zanos; 2020-08-05 at 12:10 AM.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2020-08-05, 12:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: spells that you would never want.
legend lore is one, that on those few occasions that i actually used it, worked out nicely for me. my problem with blasting magic is that the amount of effort that it takes to keep it meaningful either before 4th level or after 8th (and even then it is often the worse option) in a party with a barbarian or even in a single player game, means that i am giving up a lot of other potential usefuls. fireballing the enemy to death when you are tenth level is probably going to take an average of, what, 5 castings? you might get that down to 3-4 if you empower it. you are better off trying hold monster and then letting the fighter go to town.
yes, I am aware of the mailman build. i simply do not care for direct damage on spell casters.
other spells that i think are lousy would be hold portal, animate rope, magic mouth, statue.the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.
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2020-08-05, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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Re: spells that you would never want.
It is mostly that vague part that bothers me. The rest, especially the casting time if you don't happen to have the thing at hand, is just annoying. Also, it "often" directs you to more detailed information--not always. This is probably a plus from a DM perspective (keep some important part of history obscured so the entire plot they've devised isn't spoiled or whatever), but overall I just don't like the spell. Power-wise it's okay sometimes.
Last edited by Temotei; 2020-08-05 at 12:33 AM.
Homebrew
Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).
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2020-08-05, 12:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Most damage spells are highly situational. If we take fireball as the baseline, the average CR 10 threat has 130 HP and a reflex save of 8. So our hypothetical level 10 wizard with lets say 24 intelligence has a DC 20 fireball, meaning that the enemy fails on an 11 or lower. So the fireball does on average 35 damage, and 45% of the time the damage is halved. Net average of 27 damage. That's five or so casts to drop him, without factoring in elemental resists or spell resistance. Doesn't look great. But fireball is an area of effect spell, meaning that it is incredibly inefficient on single targets. If we instead have an encounter of 2 CR 8 threats, which is the same total CR, the saving throws and hit points both go down, so the average number of casts to finish the encounter goes down to 3.3. If you take an encounter of four CR 6 threats, the number of casts required drops to 2.4. Keep in mind that these aren't your highest level slots, since at level 10 you have 5th level spells and could empower a fireball and that makes the average damage shoot up significantly. Back to the single target guy, you can maximize a scorching ray, and with a +1 bonus to caster level could easily be hitting his touch AC with maximized scorching ray for 72 damage, give or take 5% from critical hits and misses, and you're back to finishing the entire encounter in two casts.
This is a simplistic analysis against a foe with no SR or elemental resistance, but keep in mind these encounters should be fought with 3 other party members. I think a white room analysis that has a wizard able to solo kill many threats in 2-3 casts with direct damage with relatively minimal investment is pretty good. It's not like maximize or empower are really niche feats. Are there better options? Sure. Is damage particularly bad if your DM constantly hits you with single threats, or encounters that are substantially above your ECL? Yeah. If you don't have a way to bypass or overcome elemental resistance or SR, is it going to dig into these numbers? Absolutely. But I don't think you can say doing direct damage with spells is bad unless you're applying your damage spells unintelligently.Last edited by Zanos; 2020-08-05 at 12:47 AM.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2020-08-05, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
Re: spells that you would never want.
now that you mention it, we often find ourselves in fights against a number of foes who are equal in number and level or challenge rating... this may have colored my view of blasting magic.
the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.
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2020-08-05, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Yeah, because a single CR = party level enemy is not a tough or interesting fight most of the time. Most DMs run harder fights, which does decrease blasting value, but keeps save-or-die value about the same, because it bypasses everything but saves, and saves don't scale as hard as HP.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2020-08-05, 02:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Their value isn't the same because saves do scale rapidly with CR, but their value is less impacted because they don't have to overcome a second defense in the form of HP. A creature that fails it's save vs. finger of death or slow or sleep is just as affected regardless of it's challenge rating, while the same isn't true for damage.
That said you often have to deal with immunities for save or X spells. While many monsters will have immunity or resistance to various energy types it's pretty easy to compensate for that, and you'll probably never run into an enemy that's just immune to hit point damage. Can't say the same for slay living, or even stinking cloud.If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2020-08-05, 02:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2007
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- In your head.
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Re: spells that you would never want.
I know animate dead is core o_O
Not a single person arguing for mindrape, though. Maybe if animate dead was called corpserape?"Come play in the darkness with me."
Thanks for the avatar, banjo1985!
Spoiler
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Take the 'What D&D Character am I?" Quiz!
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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
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2020-08-05, 02:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2012
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2020-08-05, 02:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: spells that you would never want.
You brought up BoVD while talking about it, sorry if I misread.
Not a single person arguing for mindrape, though. Maybe if animate dead was called corpserape?
I think mindrape, and honestly most dominate effects are a bit harder to argue for. Even dominate and charm person involve overriding a living persons free will. Standing next to sentient being who is being effectively enslaved via enchantment magic, which again the setting does not consider inherently Evil, is way more disturbing than fighting side by side with what is effectively an automaton made out of corpse. And even with that said, if you dominate or mindrape someone that was awful to fight for you, is anyone in medieval fantasy land really going to care all that much? Maybe if they're a serious devotee of some particular religion, but otherwise I doubt it. That said, I would personally have more issues using magic to obliterate and override a persons mind to effectively enslave them to my will than I would reanimating their corpse. Especially in D&D land where the body and soul are provably separate, corpses aren't people. And adventurers spend most of their time either making corpses or looting them anyway.Last edited by Zanos; 2020-08-05 at 03:01 AM.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2020-08-05, 03:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Hey, don't look at me, they're from the 6th-level random encounter table.
Fireball works on a greater percentage of enemies, statistically, than stinking cloud does, because poison immunity is more common than fire resistance. Attached to that debuff? Switch out fireball for Boccob's rolling cloud. Now you're doing the same damage, but you also get to daze them ~25% of the time, and for the kicker, half the damage is untyped. Not that you should be using either of them against only a single target...that's just inefficient. You should really be using a lower-level spell instead, like combust or force hammer or chill touch. (Or a different spell of the same or higher level, but in this scenario we're a 6th-level sorcerer, so we only have one 3rd-level spell known. One of the perks of warmage.)
Empowered spellshards are pretty cheap too. And a ring of mystic fire is well within the price range of mid-level characters. If you switch from fireball to scintillating sphere, you could toss in a veil of storms for that extra kick while you're at it—electricity resistance is rarer than fire resistance, and you won't need to worry about burning the building down.Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2020-08-05, 03:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2012
Re: spells that you would never want.
Actually, stinking cloud nauseates them for as long as they're in the cloud plus an additional 1d4+1 rounds after they leave. The cloud lingers for 1 round per caster level and they must make a new save against it each round they remain within the cloud. Positioning it properly creates a barrier in which anything attempting to attack you has a 50/50 chance of being stopped in their tracks. Stinking cloud also carries the functionality of fog cloud, meaning that anything attempting to attack you at a range through the cloud is effectively blind and has a 50% miss chance due to concealment. This is particularly beneficial against the wereboar and its boar pets, who will survive your average fireball on a failed save with just enough HP to realize that you're probably both the most dangerous person in the room and also the squishiest.
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2020-08-05, 04:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2019
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2020-08-05, 04:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
Re: spells that you would never want.
Cloudkill only kills targets with up to 6 HD though.
Circle of Death would allow a caster to theoretically kill a group of, say, 9th level characters numbering somewhere between 4 and 5 people in a single shot. Quite good for clearing the floor of reasonably high level foes.
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2020-08-05, 05:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- California
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Re: spells that you would never want.
No, he's right, the way it's written, anything with higher than 6 HD is immune to the whole effect.
Let's be real though. They're going to just walk out of the cloud and attack you in melee.
That's the big problem with stinking cloud, really—it kinda sucks against melee dorks. They pass their save because they have good Fort, and then they walk out of the cloud and attack in melee. It's much more effective against archers or casters, because if they walk out of the cloud towards you, they don't want to be in melee, but if they walk out the far side, their vision is blocked. I almost always go for sleet storm instead of stinking cloud if I'm against melee dorks; hosing their movement tends to nerf them more reliably, and you don't need to worry about undead immunities or whatever. Then you toss a few explosions into the cloud and see what's left afterwards.Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2020-08-05, 05:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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2020-08-05, 05:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: spells that you would never want.
Decreases blasting value?
I pad encounters by adding low(er) level enemies quite often. AoE blasting clears those out nicely, leaving just the boss.
Choosing off the CR10 table. Rakshasa. Eh, it'll get mobbed, and DR 15 means nothing vs a mid-level ubercharger. I want to bring the encounter up to CR13ish, and I don't want to use 2, so I go shopping at half it's CR and give it.. 12 gargoyles. Not the best synergy, but it definitely ups the difficulty. They clutter up the battlefield, break up Charge lines, etc. Or fly to stay away from melee (and out of the Stinking Cloud). Their DR works well vs most summons, without nerfing the actual melee toons. The Rakshasa's Haste benefits them. His Silent Image either hides them, or makes more of them. Maybe swap out his Acid Arrow for Levitate, so the whole encounter has an aerial component.
Now you have an invisible levitating Rakshasa buffing his gargoyles and reading the party's minds to adjust his tactics, while choosing his opportunity to intervene directly.
I might even let his Change Shape include Gargoyle as a form, so he can blend in with them. (I have been know to use an ad-hoc unpublished rules exception from time to time...)
A cloudkill or a couple fireballs won't worry the Rakshasa at all. But they will clear most of the gargoyles, or at least keep them from mobbing the wizard, while using up some party resources.Last edited by Elkad; 2020-08-05 at 05:56 AM.
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2020-08-05, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: spells that you would never want.
Yeah, sure, and I'm sure you just happened to randomly roll four encounters with groups of enemies that have no particular resistance to Fireball. Definitely not a remotely biased sample.
Fireball works on a greater percentage of enemies, statistically, than stinking cloud does, because poison immunity is more common than fire resistance.
and for the kicker, half the damage is untyped.
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2020-08-05, 07:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: spells that you would never want.
There are exceptions to this rule, but yeah, generally speaking, blasting is not very well designed.
So practically the few exceptions would be:
-Wings of Flurry for scaling with your Caster Level with no Cap.
-Orb of X Spells and generally any spell that does not allow SR. The best are Orb of Force (for dealing non magical force damage) and then Orb of Fire and Orb of Ice for having feats in their respective elements that allow to overcome Imunity to said Element.
-Magic Missile for it's an excelent spell to put into an Arcane Fusion (Greater) and apply the Fell Drain Metamagic on. Put in an Arcane Spellsurge can drain a LOT of levels in one turn.
-Flame Arrow can be an excelant cheap way to substitute Alchemist Fire (for when you run out of spell slots at low levels) and is spell resistance: no so it can penetrate AMFs and hurt Golems consistantly.
-Vitriolic Sphere. I love this spell; It's practically a lower level Dissintegrade on steroids, and SR: no makes it the only AoE blasting spell I ever use.
But yeah, past the moment I discovered AMFs and Spell Resistance, I've never cast a Fireball or Lightning Bolt again.
I'd also never focus too much on Enchantment and Illusion as schools. Past some level, most things will be Imune to those schools one way or an other. On enchantment, your best bet (if you don't use it as a banned school) is to use it for minionmancy (through Dominate X line) rather than directly in a Boss Fight.Last edited by Asmotherion; 2020-08-05 at 07:17 AM.