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2020-08-05, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2015
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Re: spells that you would never want.
The quoted post referenced having fights with several level = CR enemies, not one level = CR creature with lots of small fry. Blasting is good for small fry, but make that same CR13 encounter into three CR10 enemies. Not necessarily three rakshasa, but just three CR10 enemies. That's not gonna make Fireball stand out at any rate, I would say.
Elezen Dark Knight avatar by Linklele
Favourite classes: Beguiler, Scout, Warblade, 3.5 Warlock, Harbinger (PF:PoW).
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2020-08-05, 07:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2019
Re: spells that you would never want.
Honestly the reason Wings of Flurry is good is as much because it's an AoE daze as because it does any actual damage. Scaling longer is better, obviously, but unless you're cheesing up your CL something fierce, d6/level just doesn't hold up when enemies are getting d8s or better, Constitution bonuses, and HD > CR.
Magic Missile for it's an excelent spell to put into an Arcane Fusion (Greater) and apply the Fell Drain Metamagic on. Put in an Arcane Spellsurge can drain a LOT of levels in one turn.
Flame Arrow can be an excelant cheap way to substitute Alchemist Fire (for when you run out of spell slots at low levels) and is spell resistance: no so it can penetrate AMFs and hurt Golems consistantly.
I'd also never focus too much on Enchantment and Illusion as schools. Past some level, most things will be Imune to those schools one way or an other.
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2020-08-05, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: spells that you would never want.
On Buffing Caster Levels: I've yet to play in a group of veterans whose caster didn't have at least 10 caster levels above his character level after some point. I mean, it takes minimum effort to do so, and save for the cheese options, some are relativelly balanced, so why would you NOT get as many caster levels stack on you?
On Golems: Eh, I'm more into putting them in a "transmute rock to mud" and then build a Wall of stome myself.
On magic Missile: Sure, it's not used as a damage dealer, but it does end up being usefull, is all I'm saying.
On Enchantment: Depends on the DM really; That said, if you have a Boss Fight and the Boss figure is not protected against Domination one way or an other, you're doing something wrong as a DM. Sure, you can dispell his protection and weaken his Will save, but it still requires a few extra steps and spell slots.
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2020-08-05, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: spells that you would never want.
I'd like to see the game where having a CL of 10+Level isn't somewhat cheesy. Even if you're using reserves of strength on every spell and you have the ring of arcane might, an orange ioun stone, and a magic tattoo, that's 'only' +6, and using reserves on every spell usually indicates some form of cheese is already going on.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2020-08-05, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2016
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2020-08-05, 10:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
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- Magrathea
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Re: spells that you would never want.
It's a bit off topic, but I saw this and immediately thought
The power to place a comically oversized bathtub drain on any surfaceAn explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
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I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2020-08-05, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: spells that you would never want.
I want to believe you but do you have a source for that? Because the sentence seems to apply both effects to the same critter and says "a creature of 6 HD or less suffers X (blindness) and also Y (random badness)" rather than "a creature suffers Y, and if 6 HD or less, also is blinded". It doesn't say that a creature of more than 6HD suffers anything at all.
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2020-08-05, 11:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2020
Re: spells that you would never want.
While I agree with you generally, our party actually used Speak With Plants just this Saturday, and it was actually useful.
Granted, it was an unusual scenario. The plant in question is an extremely ancient and huge tree in the middle of a vast forest, and the bad guys are working from inside said tree to do nefarious things involving some kind of super-fertilizer and I think using the tree as an energy source in some way. (My character has an intelligence of 6, which gives me an excuse to not pay excessive attention to the details....)
Anyway, we learned a few things about what the bad guys are doing (though not a huge amount, because, hey, it's a tree), and ruled out some other things (e.g., the tree itself isn't evil or sentient, it's just a tree, albeit an incredibly old and huge one.)
As written, it sounds like Leomund's Trap will have no effect when the rogue tries to use Disable Device. Like she'd make a Disable Device roll and then discover, oh, there is no trap after all, and open it without incident. It might be kinda fun if Leomund's Trap also fools Disable Device. So:
Rogue: I roll to disable the trap. Ooh, natural 20, plus 15... 35!
DM: You do not disable the trap.
Still just a prank when all is said and done, but at least one with comedy potential. What stuck out for me, though, is in addition to being pretty useless, the material component costs 50 gp! Which, OK, checking the DMG, that's not enough to buy your own trap, but at least those fake security cameras you can attach to the ceiling only cost a couple bucks, right?Last edited by RexDart; 2020-08-05 at 12:28 PM.
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2020-08-05, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- California
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Re: spells that you would never want.
The topic is "spells you would never want." Not "spells that you would want fairly regularly but not 100% of the time."
So would you say divine power is useless as well? There's no way a cleric with a weapon is outdamaging a fireball even with full BAB. What about bless? It just helps your team hit; it doesn't increase DPR nearly enough to make you one-shot anything. What about haste? Same problem, right? What about literally any strategy that uses HP damage, but doesn't have enough burst damage to kill the target in a single round?Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2020-08-05, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- Alamogordo
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Re: spells that you would never want.
I know it's a late reply, but Spell Component Pouches specifically do not contain components that have a specific cost. Since mundane bells have a specific cost, you can't just materialize one out of your pouch.
And since you HAVE to go mundane bell shopping before you are even able to cast the spell, at low levels it's better to just have your rogue or ranger just manually produce a bell-tripwire that'll last all night instead of just one or two shifts.
I will concede as Rynjin says that it's a great spell for Permanency later on. Speaking solely to its usefulness in early level exploration, I'd never want it. And by the time I have the Permanency option, there's better alternatives for trapping my crap. The mental alarm only extends 1 mile. If you're doing all your gameplay in a city, it's probably that the Permanent Alarm is useful later on, but I've never played in such a game.
On a side note, is this a subjective or objective question about "you would never want"? Because I have a hard time playing evil characters, or at least intentionally committing evil acts, so a spell like Black Bag is something I would never want, use, or take. There might be uses for other people, but I would never have a use for it. Same with Extract Drug... or really just the majority of the spells in the Book of Vile Darkness. I just dislike that book in general.
Circle Dance is pretty boring too, I just would never use it.
Distilled Joy just seems weird and janky to me, I've never really been fond of it. But then, I also never really care for arcane casters, and less so for item creators.Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2020-08-05, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
Re: spells that you would never want.
Several spells discussed seem bad for players, but pretty good for NPCs. For instance, Flame Arrow seems like a pretty nice way for an enemy spellcaster to beef up the 10 goblin archers he's using to keep the party busy.
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2020-08-05, 01:55 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2018
Re: spells that you would never want.
Circle Dance has unlimited range and offers no save or SR. You can use two of them to triangulate the location of any creature on the same plane as you, without alerting said creature.
Distilled Joy is used for cheese. Or as an antidepressant, I suppose. But mostly cheese. Because paying xp costs is for chumps.
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2020-08-05, 02:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Distilled joy also gives you (potentially) an infinite amount of ambrosia for a single casting. The duration is Permanent, so every time the target experiences joy, you get ambrosia. Some would argue that it's just one dollop of ambrosia that can be dispelled, but the spell has "Target: One living creature," rather than being "Effect: 8 oz of ambrosia (130 calories per serving)," or whatever. So it's a Permanent effect on a creature, not a Permanent dollop of gooey goodness.
I imagine it tastes like cinnamon-apple-caramel cheesecake, though. It'd better, since it's the literal essence of joy.
So, yeah. Unlimited crafting XP! And there are enough ways to get around the casting time (such as self-resetting casting traps, and all the myriad ways psionics can do so) that it's easy to get lots of ambrosia, so long as you can get your hands on creatures who enjoy enjoying enjoyable things and are willing to let you subject them to happiness. I can't imagine too many sane creatures don't enjoy enjoying joy.Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-08-05 at 11:29 PM.
⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣
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2020-08-05, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2005
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- 61.2° N, 149.9° W
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Well, except that it's a 3rd level spell, affects a quiver the arrows are in, and doesn't help with getting hits in.
So you're facing 10 1hd gobbo archers and a level 5+ caster. The caster can magic one quiver for all the archers to clump up at and double the damage of each hit (not including crits and doesn't increase the to-hit) as long as there is no fire resistance, wind wall, etc., in play. OR. Haste doubles the rof of some of the archers, improves defenses, improves attack, doesn't force them into fireball formation, and still benefits them if they get into melee. Plus, alchemical fire arrows are a thing, as is just sticking a gob of burning pitch on the arrow, if you really want massed ranged fire attacks to set stuff alight.
That's nearly the best case scenario type thing for flame arrows. The caster could also do fireball, deep slumber, stinking cloud, any of the hundred+ actually useful 3rd level spells.
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2020-08-05, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Reserves of Strength drawback is not that big if you're under the effect of Freedom of Movement, which is a pretty standard buff to persist on your party (and by the way, never seen anyone actually using Persistant Spell without reducing it's metamagic Cost somehow).
Also, Consumtive Field alone can pack a serious buff in caster level. Arcane Casters can easyly replicate via Limited Wish. By the level it becomes available (at least to Clerics) it already gives +4 Caster Levels. Add your +6 and you already hit a +10. Which is more than enough to use for Buffing yourself for example. Or, again, persisting on yourself.
Now it depends on what you mean as cheese. 'Cause that's just standard reading of the rules, and I can't think of a different way to read/interpreat RAW in this case, which is usually what I consider the "cheese" line.Last edited by Asmotherion; 2020-08-05 at 03:35 PM.
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2020-08-05, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: spells that you would never want.
I'd definitely qualify somehow burning 300xp a day on limited wish for consumptive field combined with chicken slaughtering and extensive persistomancy to be relatively cheesy, yeah.
If any idiot ever tells you that life would be meaningless without death, Hyperion recommends killing them!
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2020-08-05, 04:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2005
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- Edmonton, Canada
Re: spells that you would never want.
Thinking further about useless spells, there are all of those nightmare/dream communication/etc spells, and whenever I see one, my eyes kind of glaze over. I have never found a gaming situation in which I really, really want to make an enemy 200 miles away have nightmares. Or cause have my sister have dreams about me flying around naked.
Has ANYONE ever used these spells in an actual game setting?"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." Kurt Vonnegut
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2020-08-05, 04:38 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
Re: spells that you would never want.
It also referenced padding encounters to raise the CR. I pad in various ways, but one of them is adding lots of low-level guys.
It's also the method I recommend for new DMs because it's so easy to control. You can add a few more gargoyles a couple at a time if it's too easy, or have them break and run, leaving just the boss, if the party is losing.
Also happens to give Mr Fireball a chance to shine. Or Mr Great Cleave.Last edited by Elkad; 2020-08-05 at 04:40 PM.
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2020-08-05, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2005
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- Vancouver, BC, Canada
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2020-08-05, 05:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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2020-08-05, 11:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2005
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- 61.2° N, 149.9° W
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Re: spells that you would never want.
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2020-08-06, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- Alamogordo
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Your response just goes back to my main point though. I would never want it because I've never cared for magic item crafting, and any "create a feedback loop for maximum spell efficiency" system is just putting more effort into a system than just buying a custom item from some shop with the GM, especially since a lot of games I've played in tend to just make shopping less of a hassle. It just seems like extra work, and any feedback loops would require extended amounts of downtime to even set them up.
If you have no interest in playing an item craftsman, you'd never want this spell. It's just too much hassle to actually make it efficient. Sure, it could be useful. Forcing nightmares on a foe could be useful. But it requires a level of effort I don't think the vast majority of players or GMs would care for.Characters I've enjoyed playing for more than four sessions:
Falgar the Swiftblade
Revain Sumeth, Whip Fighter Extraordinaire
Malvin Firel, Cleric of Corellon, Destroyer of Undeath
Vongur Dorent, Primeval Champion of Poverty
In defense of the Vow of Poverty
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2020-08-06, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
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- Wandering in Harrekh
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Would never want: Tenser's Transformation. At the level you can cast it, you can be Polymorphing into a Chuul to get (most likely) better stats and natural armor, with the added bonus of still being able to cast spells and not needing to waste a potion to activate it, and for minutes/level (Polymorph) instead of rounds/level (Transformation). Insult to injury; Polymorph is a 4th-level spell, and Transformation is a 6th.
This one doesn't even get the excuse of splatbook power creep; both of them are in the PHB, and Chuuls are in Monster Manual 1.Last edited by Telonius; 2020-08-06 at 01:53 PM.
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2020-08-06, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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2020-08-06, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2018
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Quick, no-one tell Edea about animate with the spirit.
Re blasting spells: I rarely encounter a situation where a blasting spell is a complete waste of time, and comparatively often encounter situations where they're the best use of my action. YMMV.
As for the thread title, I don't think I have ever cast aid, align weapon, animal trance, antilife shell, antipathy, antiplant shell, greater arcane sight, baleful polymorph, bane, banishment, bear's endurance, mass bear's endurance, bless water, blight, bull's strength*, mass bull's strength, call lightning*, call lightning storm*, calm animals, calm emotions, cat's grace, mass cat's grace, cause fear, changestaff, chill metal, circle of death, cloak of chaos, clone**, command plants, lesser confusion, consecrate, contagion, control plants, creeping doom, crushing despair, curse water, and seriously are we just at the end of the letter C in the PHB? Yeah there are a lot of subpar spells out there.
*Except in the Neverwinter Nights games, where these spells work very differently.
**I'm aware that it's good, it just hasn't become necessary in any of the games I've played.
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2020-08-06, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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- California
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Cleave is a great feat if you're the party's primary striker. You'll be dealing the finishing blow pretty consistently, so it will get you extra attacks regularly. The more damage-dealers you have in the party, however, the more you have to share those finishing blows, which makes Cleave less reliable (unless your party coordinates its tactics around it).
Great Cleave, on the other hand, is trash.Rhymes with "Protracted."
Handbooks: The Warlockopedia | The Warmagepedia (WIP) | Tier List (2019 Update)
Spreadsheets: Spellcasting classes | Deities | Useful items
Homebrew: Gestalt Theurge | Fighter and Monk fixes | Warlock stuff | Houserules and quick fixes
Original Fiction: The Wizard's Familiar
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2020-08-06, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: spells that you would never want.
Chain of Perdition is another trap spell. It sounds cool. You get to do dirty trick maneuvers using your caster level and spellcasting modifier instead of BAB and Strength. The problem is the same for warrior characters who want to use maneuvers. The CMD of monsters are so high it will never work. I tried the spell in different campaigns, but the only use I ever got out of it was to use it on myself using the chain to help me get over walls and out of pits. I could never beat the CMD of monsters to use the spell as intended. Should I play a Pathfinder game again I'm not taking this spell anymore. It looks great on paper. It fails in practice.
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2020-08-06, 06:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2017
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- UK
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Meteor swarm disappoints me, it's not even good at doing AoE damage, let alone comparable to other 9th level spells.
Soul bind is pointless, why kill someone then trap their soul when you could just cast trap the soul and skip the bit where you have to fight them.
Oh and Alarm is definitely better than a mundane alarm, it trips if anything enters the AoE it tells you, there's no flying over the tripwire, silencing the bell etc.
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2020-08-06, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: spells that you would never want.
That… depends.
I mean, sure, I'm pretty sure I ran a Fighter who never once got to Great Cleave. I've also seen (and, in a one-shot, ran!) large and/or reach Great Cleavers who could and would wipe the board in one action. It was like a muggle Fireball.
Also, Great Cleave was better in 3.0, with crit stacking and on-crit Vorpal action.
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2020-08-06, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: spells that you would never want.
Well, Great Cleave is a lot better if you consider trips and other things that result in a prone enemy to be "dropping" them.
Maybe then it'd see some actual use.⚣ Tanuki in the Playground. ⚣