spells that you would never want.

[vasilidor]

when it comes to random encounters, they are not always hostile. once had a group of paladins have a random encounter with a gold dragon. legit rolled a gold dragon (the chart had a 1% chance of some type of dragon that then went into a subchart of various dragon types, including dragonkin). some encounters wound up adding to party resources in some games (ran into a bunch of zombies with a group that had a necromancer with command undead prepped twice in a 5th level party). random encounter does not always equal fight. back on topic, there are some summoning spells in the spell compendium that make me go "why is this even a thing?" you summon a bunch of demons or angels, pending alignment, that are all under leveled for anything that you might fight at the level that you would be able to cast the spell (it's 9th, all the summons are cr 13 or lower).

[Quertus]

You also can't configure a tripwire to mentally alert you with no sound.

That would involve things like tying the string to a part of your body (like snoozing fishermen are wont to do.

EDIT: Dungeonscape Pg. 54 actually has rules for the trap that you described, and it gives you DC -5 listen check to be awoken by the trap, which is affected by distance, and it has a reflex save to avoid setting off in addition to the search check DC of 20 to notice it. The reflex save is 1/2 your craft(trapmaking) check, which probably isn't going to be more than DC 10 or so at low levels. If, like most characters, you don't have any ranks in craft(trapmaking), that would be half your take ten plus your intelligence modifier. If you're a learned wizard with 18 int, that's a DC 7 reflex save if they don't notice your trap to avoid having your throat slit in the night.

So, when you set up 100 of these tripwires, or boost your skill check into the stratosphere, the low DC isn't an issue.

[Gnaeus]

So oof on the misread of the line, that is indeed my bad. However, again, you continue to make the bold assumption that options available to the pcs are not available to the npcs. I see no reason why a wizard that is attacking the party can't have their own CL increasing items or feats or whatever. All of your arguments rely on ONLY the players having those options.

NPCs get less than half PC WBL to keep PC wealth on track. There are also cheap items like ring of enduring arcana available by level 5 WBL (4kgp raises CL by 4 only for purpose of resisting dispel.

[Wildstag]

NPCs get less than half PC WBL to keep PC wealth on track. There are also cheap items like ring of enduring arcana available by level 5 WBL (4kgp raises CL by 4 only for purpose of resisting dispel.

Maybe in general, but the 5th level NPC Wizard Sample has a total of 6,124 gp in gear when supposedly they should have a lot less (4300 according to the tables). I guess if we were to assume the wizard wrote their own scrolls we could bump that down, but it's still significantly higher than the standard np wbl.

Actually, it's a drow wizard, so it is effectively a 6th level character, but the 6,124 gp is still above the 5600 gp expected of a 6th level npc (9% higher). It might be on-level if they wrote the scrolls, I dunno.

[Thunder999]

Personally I'd consider trading a 1st level (2nd if extended) slot to cast alarm for a 3rd level slot to cast dispel a pretty great deal.
And remember that the PCs are probably resting tents (and if not here's why they should bother to) and therefore someone casting an area dispel doesn't even have line of effect to them, so it won't get chance to dispel any lingering buffs.

[Wildstag]

Yeah, at this point keeping up with the alarm argument is ridiculous. You guys want to defend it like it saved your life in the war, go ahead.

I'll use my precious few low-level spell slots in ways that meaningfully contribute to the party's welfare. I would never want it, and since the prompt says "you" and not "anyone", I say my contribution of alarm is valid and reasonable.

[XionUnborn01]

Edit: are people really playing with parties where the skill monkey doesn’t put ranks in Craft (Trapmaking)? Really? Why would you be arguing for an untrained check? {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I've been playing for probably 20 years or so, and I don't remember more than 2 or 3 people ever using trapmaking.

[Unavenger]

I've been playing for probably 20 years or so, and I don't remember more than 2 or 3 people ever using trapmaking.

I for one don't recall anyone in any party I've ever been in having ever used trapmaking under any circumstances for as long as I've lived. Apparently we're all "brain-dead participants".

[Wildstag]

I for one don't recall anyone in any party I've ever been in having ever used trapmaking under any circumstances for as long as I've lived. Apparently we're all "brain-dead participants".

In a particular example of "someone is making a Craft (Trapmaking) check, and they choose to do so untrained", then yes, the argument is stupid. In no other hypothetical on this forum have I seen someone argue "well assuming the check is being made untrained", because why would you except to make the other person's argument seem flimsier than it actually is.

In a discussion about people making or using a simple trap regularly, why would that person not invest any skill ranks in the skill that they use for a nightly defense? So yes, if you are making a bunch of traps without any skill ranks when the basic craft dc is 20, then yes, you should be seen as braindead.

No, I was not making a statement about people not taking ranks in the skill in general. {Scrubbed}

P.S. Why wouldn't you have someone with Craft (Trapmaking)? Do you not set up a base of operations you want to defend? Do you really just carry ALL of your material wealth on your person in EVERY game you have ever played? No strongholds? No mansions? No permanent dwellings where you keep your dragon-skull trophy or collection of souvenirs of battle? Would you really outsource all of your trapmaking to some unknown that might be connected to a thieve's guild?

[Zanos]

Because the market prices for printed traps are ludricrous. Even CR1 traps that are nearly useless cost at least 500gp. Due to the way craft skills work that also means any respectable trap takes months to make.

I usually play spellcasters, so I defend my bases with spells, which are generally either very cheap to learn and either have no material component or very cheap ones. Arcane locks, animated undead, fang traps, ghoul glyphs, illusory walls, walls of eyes, etc. Divine casters can use glyphs of warding.

[Gnaeus]

Maybe in general, but the 5th level NPC Wizard Sample has a total of 6,124 gp in gear when supposedly they should have a lot less (4300 according to the tables). I guess if we were to assume the wizard wrote their own scrolls we could bump that down, but it's still significantly higher than the standard np wbl.

Actually, it's a drow wizard, so it is effectively a 6th level character, but the 6,124 gp is still above the 5600 gp expected of a 6th level npc (9% higher). It might be on-level if they wrote the scrolls, I dunno.

So you are complaining that the NPC statblock (which are notoriously bad anyway) should have better optimized gear when in fact he is over WBL?

Not an issue. Either you use the wizard, who doesn’t have CL boosters. Or the table, where you probably can’t afford CL boosters, and if you could it probably isn’t the best use of your WBL.

Unrelated. Put me down as someone else who has never seen craft trapsmith used at a table by any player.

[Thunder999]

I'm pretty sure the argument is that you can't say craft (trapmaking) replaces a spell unless either people would want that skill already (which since noone ever takes it we can rule out) or the spell has a similarly high opportunity cost, which it doesn't because it's a 1st level spell and therefore very cheap to learn.

[Wildstag]

I'm pretty sure the argument is that you can't say craft (trapmaking) replaces a spell unless either people would want that skill already (which since noone ever takes it we can rule out) or the spell has a similarly high opportunity cost, which it doesn't because it's a 1st level spell and therefore very cheap to learn.

It has a high opportunity cost at low levels (saving a quarter to a half of your daily efficiency for it when it doesn't last the whole night), and by the time you get to mid and high levels, funnily enough, it's best use is in Craft (Trapmaking) (but for magical traps). And as was pointed out by someone else in the thread, traps are stupidly expensive, so why make your own (I disagree somewhat, but to each their own). At higher levels it's cheap to learn but also just like, you use it because you aren't really using all your first level spells.

Also, I really don't get why you guys don't just let it rest after the whole "I would never want it, and since the thread says 'you' and not 'anyone', my opinion is valid." Just seems petty to prolong it.

[Remuko]

I've been playing for probably 20 years or so, and I don't remember more than 2 or 3 people ever using trapmaking.

ive been playing since 3.0 came out and ive never seen anyone make ANY crafting check in my games. yes even magical items. not once.

P.S. Why wouldn't you have someone with Craft (Trapmaking)? Do you not set up a base of operations you want to defend? Do you really just carry ALL of your material wealth on your person in EVERY game you have ever played? No strongholds? No mansions? No permanent dwellings where you keep your dragon-skull trophy or collection of souvenirs of battle? Would you really outsource all of your trapmaking to some unknown that might be connected to a thieve's guild?

Almost every game I've been in? Yeah. No base. Everything is kept in extra dimensional storage, on hand, the whole time. All wealth in extradimensional storage. No strongholds, no mansions, no permanent dwellings, no souvenirs of battle or trophies. No outsourced trapmaking either, no traps at all, often on both sides of the DM screen. No traps.

[Quertus]

Personally I'd consider trading a 1st level (2nd if extended) slot to cast alarm for a 3rd level slot to cast dispel a pretty great deal.
And remember that the PCs are probably resting tents (and if not here's why they should bother to) and therefore someone casting an area dispel doesn't even have line of effect to them, so it won't get chance to dispel any lingering buffs.

Win and win. Or would be, if GMs actually played NPCs as actually existing off camera, and they expended spells throughout the day.

I've been playing for probably 20 years or so, and I don't remember more than 2 or 3 people ever using trapmaking.

Yeah, in the 20 years of my 3e experience, I've noticed exactly 1 character with trapmaking skills.

I'll use my precious few low-level spell slots in ways that meaningfully contribute to the party's welfare. I would never want it, and since the prompt says "you" and not "anyone", I say my contribution of alarm is valid and reasonable.

Also, I really don't get why you guys don't just let it rest after the whole "I would never want it, and since the thread says 'you' and not 'anyone', my opinion is valid." Just seems petty to prolong it.

Perhaps because "never" tends to invoke a "what if…" response; in this case, a "what if someone pointed out how useful it is?".

Granted, I don't think I've ever seen Alarm used in 3e.

[Unavenger]

Also, I really don't get why you guys don't just let it rest after the whole "I would never want it, and since the thread says 'you' and not 'anyone', my opinion is valid." Just seems petty to prolong it.

I think it stops being a nice sharing of opinions and starts being the kind of debate in which you have to defend your views the first time you call someone "brain-dead".

[El Dorado]

I think some of Alarm's stigma comes from pre 3.5, when any interruption to a wizard's rest messed with their spell preparation. Now, if something pings the mental alarm (even the wizard's owl coming in from foraging), the wizard can sense if the familiar is agitated without consequence. Even if the wizard has to check themselves, they are good with an extra hour of rest. The spell's even better for a ranger (divine caster) who make their own listen and spot checks to find out what's up.

[Wildstag]

I think it stops being a nice sharing of opinions and starts being the kind of debate in which you have to defend your views the first time you call someone "brain-dead".

If you actually read what I said, I did not call anyone "brain dead". What follows is what I actually said, unedited. Everyone else just acted like I was personally calling them brain dead. {Scrubbed} At worst I said that the argument was that stupid, but a person and their flimsy argument are two separate things.

are people really playing with parties where the skill monkey doesn’t put ranks in Craft (Trapmaking)? Really? {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} However, your argument also overlooks the DMG's Chapter 3.

In a discussion about people making or using a simple trap regularly, why would that person not invest any skill ranks in the skill that they use for a nightly defense? So yes, if you are making a bunch of traps without any skill ranks when the basic craft dc is 20, then yes, you should be seen as braindead.

I for one don't recall anyone in any party I've ever been in having ever used trapmaking under any circumstances for as long as I've lived. Apparently we're all "brain-dead participants".

YOU are the one that elevated it to talking about the players and not the hypothetical's player-characters. So yes, I think y'all should stop taking my defense so personally and just accept that I will retain a different opinion than you.

Edit: and on a Ranger, it comes so late that Alarm doesn't even last the full night until level 8. And even then you're using one of your very few spells on it. Not that Ranger really uses their spells for anything, since they're a piss-poor caster, but I guess it might be more worth it on a Mystic Ranger. But the Mystic Ranger isn't really playable at most tables due to being Dragon Mag content.

[nedz]

Cleave is a great feat if you're the party's primary striker. You'll be dealing the finishing blow pretty consistently, so it will get you extra attacks regularly. The more damage-dealers you have in the party, however, the more you have to share those finishing blows, which makes Cleave less reliable (unless your party coordinates its tactics around it).

Great Cleave, on the other hand, is trash.

I agree. I still have some players who swear by Great Cleave for some reason.

[Unavenger]

If you actually read what I said, I did not call anyone "brain dead". What follows is what I actually said, unedited. Everyone else just acted like I was personally calling them brain dead. And that's what I mean by arguing in bad faith. At worst I said that the argument was that stupid, but a person and their flimsy argument are two separate things.









YOU are the one that elevated it to talking about the players and not the hypothetical's player-characters. So yes, I think y'all should stop taking my defense so personally and just accept that I will retain a different opinion than you.

Edit: and on a Ranger, it comes so late that Alarm doesn't even last the full night until level 8. And even then you're using one of your very few spells on it. Not that Ranger really uses their spells for anything, since they're a piss-poor caster, but I guess it might be more worth it on a Mystic Ranger. But the Mystic Ranger isn't really playable at most tables due to being Dragon Mag content.

I'm sorry, you didn't accuse us of being brain-dead.

You accused us and everyone who we've ever played with of being brain-dead.

My mistake.

[Wildstag]

{Scrubbed}

[JNAProductions]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

This helps your point... How?

Because, for what it's worth, you might not have outright STATED you consider Unavenger brain-dead, but you certainly implied they and their gaming friends are.

And then you insulted them again. In this very post.

[Particle_Man]

I agree. I still have some players who swear by Great Cleave for some reason.

I see it as a signal. The player is signalling that they want a bad ass scene where they heroically chop a bunch of mooks into sushi. Something like the high level first edition fighter against multiple opponents of less than one HD each. So it is more of a “signalling for an awesome moment” feat than a useful one but it costs the dm nothing to send in some popcorn to die dramatically before the actual fight against opponents that actually present a challenge. And it is cheaper to get that signal feat than whirlwind attack.

[Wildstag]

JNAP, read my comment above with all the quote. I have NOT ONCE made the claim that any PEOPLE are vegetative. I said

are people really playing with parties where the skill monkey doesn’t put ranks in Craft (Trapmaking)? Really? Why would you be arguing for an untrained check?
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

The question about brain-dead participants was talking about how the one forum-dweller was arguing the uselessness of a bell-tripwire defense by proposing a PC that had no ranks in the skill making the trap. That'd be like talking about how rangers are bad by using an example of a ranger with an irrelevant Favored Enemy. The argument had no merit because it relies on inefficiency. The brain-dead comment was not referring to people whose skill-monkeys don't put ranks in Trapmaking. Why should I care what you put ranks in? I will admit I could have separated those separate thoughts better.

{Scrubbed}

Alarm is a dumb spell for most characters, Dispel Magic wasn't even the best counter-argument, Silence (a 2nd level spell) works better, especially if each person is in their own tent (as Thunder999 suggested). The mental alarm might wake up the wizard, but to wake up others they'd have to walk around in a zone of silence. Generally, at that level, silence and low light conditions spell disaster. Silence would also stop a bell-and-tripwire, but not affect a string that simply tugs on a body part (thanks Quertus). Alarm doesn't last long enough at low levels to be useful, and at mid and high levels, alarm is cast solely because you have a leftover slot and you have nothing better to use the spell slot on. Furthermore, it can be useful in Craft (Trapmaking) skill checks, but those magic traps take weeks to make and cost a lot of money, and apparently people don't build home bases or don't get downtime. So functionally, the spell fails at doing what it's designed to do.

At best, it's useful for a low level mage to cast while they're taking a turn at watch, since they likely don't have ranks in Spot and Listen and must rely on the spell to help them. But then you would have a first level mage on watch. One arrow from a goblin or kobold with darkvision and the mage goes down.

[XionUnborn01]

ive been playing since 3.0 came out and ive never seen anyone make ANY crafting check in my games. yes even magical items.

I agree. I've taken craft skills as a character and dont think I've ever used them. I've played in a couple games with artificers so they did crafting but it wasnt checks, they had a high enough modifier to just do it in the down time. This forum really goes hard on craft checks being amazing but I'm willing to bet that in most games they don't come up like ever...

[nedz]

I see it as a signal. The player is signalling that they want a bad ass scene where they heroically chop a bunch of mooks into sushi. Something like the high level first edition fighter against multiple opponents of less than one HD each. So it is more of a “signalling for an awesome moment” feat than a useful one but it costs the dm nothing to send in some popcorn to die dramatically before the actual fight against opponents that actually present a challenge. And it is cheaper to get that signal feat than whirlwind attack.

Maybe, but I do throw lots of mooks at them, on occasion, and it's still rarely triggered. I do know that it's a recreation of the AD&D FM against 0HD rule, but that always felt cheep. Interestingly the same players favour Whirlwind also.

[Wildstag]

I agree. I've taken craft skills as a character and dont think I've ever used them. I've played in a couple games with artificers so they did crafting but it wasnt checks, they had a high enough modifier to just do it in the down time. This forum really goes hard on craft checks being amazing but I'm willing to bet that in most games they don't come up like ever...

I guess it really does speak to a different ethos in game running then. Out of the last four GMs I've had, only one didn't give us sufficient downtime to do some crafting, and that's because my most recent GM is new to it and basically just runs a dungeon-a-week game. Others I've had actually allow for time like that. As an example, in 2018 I played a VoP Hengeyokai Barb/Ftr/Warshaper/FotF/Primeval to level 20, and during downtime he oversaw the construction of an orphanage and homeless shelter. He didn't have the skill ranks himself, but we allowed time for master craftsmen to make the buildings, which also gave a pretense for sidequests for certain PCs. I think that PC's in my signature.

From what I've seen in this thread, the forum doesn't really favor craft checks. I just think Craft and Profession checks offer a big advantage for downtime roleplay and just roleplaying in general. It's why I've made a swordsmith in a PF game using the Master Craftsman feat. And like I said further up in the thread, my swiftblade PC had ranks in it because we lived in Sigil and he didn't trust the citizens of that city to leave well enough alone.

I'd say it's thematic that a Rogue might have some skill in making simple traps with a mindset of "it takes a trapmaker to know a trap". It'd also make sense for a Ranger or Scout to be an experienced trapmaker because of experience setting ambushes and traps for interlopers. But I understand the character archetype can be approached differently.

[Elkad]

Maybe, but I do throw lots of mooks at them, on occasion, and it's still rarely triggered. I do know that it's a recreation of the AD&D FM against 0HD rule, but that always felt cheep. Interestingly the same players favour Whirlwind also.

Well if Mr Fireballs would soften them up for Mr Great Cleave, he could have his moment. And then high-five Mr Fireballs for setting it up.
Both players feel great!

I do try to feed my players encounters that actually fit their abilities at times. Everyone gets a turn to be the star.
Including me, when I take something that is nominally a cakewalk EL, but I've tailored it to make them all struggle.

One of the ways I try to engage a new player is make the "random" night encounter something that he can handle well, and then make it show up on his guard shift. He gets a little "solo" adventure while everyone else is looking for their boots and cheering him on.

Continuing that trend is no big deal. Every now and then the Cleric of Burning Hate Pelor should get to destructify a giant mob of low-HD undead by turning them.

[vasilidor]

Well if Mr Fireballs would soften them up for Mr Great Cleave, he could have his moment. And then high-five Mr Fireballs for setting it up.
Both players feel great!

I do try to feed my players encounters that actually fit their abilities at times. Everyone gets a turn to be the star.
Including me, when I take something that is nominally a cakewalk EL, but I've tailored it to make them all struggle.

One of the ways I try to engage a new player is make the "random" night encounter something that he can handle well, and then make it show up on his guard shift. He gets a little "solo" adventure while everyone else is looking for their boots and cheering him on.

Continuing that trend is no big deal. Every now and then the Cleric of Burning Hate Pelor should get to destructify a giant mob of low-HD undead by turning them.

while creative plays have generally been rewarded in games that i have played, this has been less about casting fireball, and more about using carpentry to make bypasses in areas with traps in them (a wooden plank is highly effective against dart traps.)

[nedz]

Well if Mr Fireballs would soften them up for Mr Great Cleave, he could have his moment. And then high-five Mr Fireballs for setting it up.
Both players feel great!

I do try to feed my players encounters that actually fit their abilities at times. Everyone gets a turn to be the star.
Including me, when I take something that is nominally a cakewalk EL, but I've tailored it to make them all struggle.

One of the ways I try to engage a new player is make the "random" night encounter something that he can handle well, and then make it show up on his guard shift. He gets a little "solo" adventure while everyone else is looking for their boots and cheering him on.

Continuing that trend is no big deal. Every now and then the Cleric of Burning Hate Pelor should get to destructify a giant mob of low-HD undead by turning them.

Yes I do those things too, and I even have a Mr Fireball, but Great Cleave still never delivers. YMMV