Couldn't Redcloak become a Mystic Theurge?

[Conradine]

Redcloak is highly intelligent and blessed with virtually-infinite lifespan. He needed badly an arcane spellcaster for the Plan. So why not becoming one himself? He could have taken Tsukiko's path with far more success, since he's smarter and he has no time limits.

[Keltest]

The amount of XP he would need at this point to make it worth doing would be extremely problematic. He would need to defeat Xykon in deadly battle over and over again, basically.

[Riftwolf]

He's currently a Cleric 15+ (he has 9th level spells), so he's left it kind of late. By the time he'd gotten the levels in Wizard he'd be epic or close to, and from what I gather epic cleric is better than Cleric 15/Wizard 3+/Theurge X.

I also question the infinite lifespan, as in 3.5 there's a few bonuses that stop you ageing but not dying of old age (I can't remember the fluff atm). Redcloak being Tolkien-Elf-Immortal shouldn't be an automatic assumption.

[Morty]

Redcloak doesn't age and is already older than a normal goblin could be. It is possible he could live forever if he doesn't violence or accident. Which isn't the same as having infinite time.

All else aside, we don't even know if it's possible for a hypothetical super-epic-level cleric/wizard/Mystic Theurge to perform both halves of the ritual. If at any point the halves need to be performed at the same time, they'd be hosed.

[pwning doodes]

Good point by Morty about having to cast two parts of the ritual simultaneously. I agree that it doesn’t make sense for Redcloak to multi class at this point, but I do wonder whether he thought about it at all back when he got hitched with Xykon. By the time he was truly in deep with Xykon and

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had killed his own brother

in Start of Darkness, I think it would’ve been difficult for him to deviate from that path and start executing the plan in any other way. Even if he could have parted ways with Xykon without incident, I doubt he would have by that point.

I’m curious to whether that would’ve been possible, though. We’ll have to see what the ritual entails.

[The MunchKING]

Redcloak is highly intelligent and blessed with virtually-infinite lifespan. He needed badly an arcane spellcaster for the Plan. So why not becoming one himself? He could have taken Tsukiko's path with far more success, since he's smarter and he has no time limits.

If you need 9th level slots to make it work, as Thor said they would to remake the Gate with 4 quiddity then the problem is just HOW MANY levels you would have to throw into it to get both. He just hit 17th when he crushed the Resistance. If he was a Theurge, he'd still be at 7th level spells.

[Lord Torath]

Redcloak doesn't age and is already older than a normal goblin could be.

Do we know this for certain? His younger brother (only by 3-5 years, I'd guess, assuming Redcloak was around 12-13 at the start of Start of Darkness) died about two years ago, and not of old age. It's very reasonable to assume that Redcloak has not yet exceeded a goblin's maximum age (being about 7 years older than his brother was when he died).

[woweedd]

Do we know this for certain? His younger brother (only by 3-5 years, I'd guess, assuming Redcloak was around 12-13 at the start of Start of Darkness) died about two years ago, and not of old age. It's very reasonable to assume that Redcloak has not yet exceeded a goblin's maximum age (being about 7 years older than his brother was when he died).

Redcloak is about middle-aged in human years, and Goblins don't live as long, but still looks the same as he did when he was a teenager, which indicates he doesn't age, or, at least, ages very slowly. Whether that makes him immortal...Well, he's probably a bit older then Goblins usually live, but we don't know.

[Conradine]

I mean that Redcloak had that chance at the very beginning, when he was a White Cloak just promoted to Redcloak due his mentor's demise.

[hroþila]

If you need 9th level slots to make it work, as Thor said they would to remake the Gate with 4 quiddity then the problem is just HOW MANY levels you would have to throw into it to get both. He just hit 17th when he crushed the Resistance. If he was a Theurge, he'd still be at 7th level spells.

I think we shouldn't assume that the Dark One's ritual has the same level requirement as what Thor wants to do. Redcloak was thinking of starting on the ritual long before he had access to 9th-level spells. In SoD he only says they need a "powerful divine caster".

[The MunchKING]

I mean that Redcloak had that chance at the very beginning, when he was a White Cloak just promoted to Redcloak due his mentor's demise.

Assuming he needs a 9th level spell worth of power from each class, he would have been betting on himself getting to at least level 24. Which even with Xykon's help he hasn't yet.

I think we shouldn't assume that the Dark One's ritual has the same level requirement as what Thor wants to do. Redcloak was thinking of starting on the ritual long before he had access to 9th-level spells. In SoD he only says they need a "powerful divine caster".

True, but without more ranks of Knowledge (How D&D Rules fit into OotS Plot Devices), I'm stuck using Nerd Lore.

[Fyraltari]

I think we shouldn't assume that the Dark One's ritual has the same level requirement as what Thor wants to do. Redcloak was thinking of starting on the ritual long before he had access to 9th-level spells. In SoD he only says they need a "powerful divine caster".

This doesn’t mean that we should discard the notion of him not going that way because the level required for him to be able to cast both halves of the ritual seemed too high for him at the time.

[Peelee]

There is no indication Redcloak would need a 9th level slot to make it work. The 9th level slot is for Thor's plan, which is to seal the rifts. The Dark One's plan is to move the Gate, and we have no exact knowledge of the level required, other than Redcloak seems to believe he could do it by the time they took on the first Gate.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, rituals aren't exactly level-coded. Especially rituals that take weeks to complete.

[Roland Itiative]

Was Xykon even capable of 9th level spells back when he was recruited in SoD, before the Lich upgrade?

As for the spells, there are definitely three different Rift-spells here. First there is Dorukan and Lirian's spell, used to seal the Rifts within Gates, and needs an arcane and divine caster to work. Then there's The Dark One's spell, which moves the pre-existing Gates and can open them, but seems to be useless on the Rifts, and also needs and arcane caster working alongside a divine one. Finally there is Thor's spell, which seems like an improved version of the first one in function, sealing the Rifts permenently without the need of Gates, but doesn't require an arcane caster, only 9th level spell slots of four different divine quiddities.

There's good reason to believe that TDO's spell is either way easier to cast than the Order of the Scribble's, or the Red Cloak has it woven in as one of its magical properties, so even a neophyte goblin wearing it would be able to cast the divine half of the spell. Or both.

[Chronos]

Xykon had the expectation that Tsukiko could perform half of the ritual, and I think her casting topped at around 6th-level spells. Taking that as a baseline, Redcloak would need to add a total of 11 levels of wizard plus mystic theurge (presumably, wizard 3 and MT 8). He's currently level 17, which would mean he'd need to get to level 28. Which is really, really high.

[Jasdoif]

Was Xykon even capable of 9th level spells back when he was recruited in SoD, before the Lich upgrade?

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Does attempting to cast a 9th-level spell (energy drain) while under the effect of Lirian's anti-spellcasting disease count?

[Conradine]

Well, there are the re-training optional rules, also...

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, there are the re-training optional rules, also...

In 3.5? I don't recall seeing those before Pathfinder.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They're in...PHB3, I think.

[Goblin_Priest]

They're in...PHB3, I think.

Oh... don't think I ever got that one.

[Jasdoif]

They're in...PHB3, I think.

The last chapter of PHB2, I believe....I don't think 3.5 had a third Player's Handbook.

[pendejochy]

It's been a long time since I read Start of Darkness, but I remember there being a section where it was revealed or implied that

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goblins are either very bad at using arcane magic or practicing it has adverse affect on the goblin mind since the only goblin wizard Redcloak had around seemed mentally challenged

which is why you rarely see goblin wizards or sorcerers in the comic.

[RatElemental]

It is possible to get to 9th level spells in both the arcane and divine half of mystic theurge. It requires a few shenanigans, and for the divine side to be druid; ur-priest; archivist or apostle of peace unless you want to get into the really smelly gouda like beholder mage, but it is doable.

[Gurgeh]

I'm assuming that the above has the unspoken extra condition of "before level 20" - because a straight cleric/wizard/theurge with no ACFs or extra prestige classes can max out both divine and arcane spellcasting just fine without any cheddar at all provided they're okay with just taking more levels of cleric and wizard once their theurge progression ends at 10 - the obvious downside being that it'll require the character to hit level 24 at minimum, assuming that the rules don't allow more Theurge levels once the character reaches Epic levels.

[faustin]

Maybe the ritual simply requires more than one participant.

[The MunchKING]

assuming that the rules don't allow more Theurge levels once the character reaches Epic levels.

The way I remember it, you CAN get more Theurge levels after you become Epic, But an 11+ Mystic Theurge is like a 21+ Cleric or wizard, and you don't automatically get anymore spells. And it has the absolute worst of the bonus feat progression, so you're absolutely better off taking something else.

I'd have to break out my Epic Rules book to be sure of that though.

[Gurgeh]

Wow, if it doesn't give any casting then that's astonishingly bad. Poor Theurges.

[Lord Torath]

Redcloak ... is already older than a normal goblin could be.

Do we know this for certain? His younger brother (only by 3-5 years, I'd guess, assuming Redcloak was around 12-13 at the start of Start of Darkness) died about two years ago, and not of old age. It's very reasonable to assume that Redcloak has not yet exceeded a goblin's maximum age (being about 7 years older than his brother was when he died).

Redcloak just said he's been High Priest for 35 years. Figure he was around 10-13 at the time he first gained the white cloak (and the Red Cloak about 5 minutes later), so now he's around 45-48. What's a goblin's maximum age? And is 10-13 a reasonable guess for when a goblin hits the equivalent of a 16-18 year-old human?

[HouseRules]

The way I remember it, you CAN get more Theurge levels after you become Epic, But an 11+ Mystic Theurge is like a 21+ Cleric or wizard, and you don't automatically get anymore spells. And it has the absolute worst of the bonus feat progression, so you're absolutely better off taking something else.

I'd have to break out my Epic Rules book to be sure of that though.

Every Odd Epic Level of Mystic Theurge is worse than an Epic Level of Wizard (except for the hit dice) and Every Even Epic Level of Mystic Theurge is worse than an Epic Level of Cleric.