Seeking Hexblade 3/Shadow 1 feedback

[Aquifn]

Hello!
This is my first time here, so apologies if this is the wrong section. I hope I got it right though!

I've been trying to build and play the Marvel character, Magik. I started with a level in Shadow Sorcerer as a Mark of Passage Human. We found a staff of defense, and I was using that for a while. However we recently defeated a green dragon (Lost Mines), and a reward my GM threw my way was a sun blade. This was on my list of wished items, as I felt it best filled the 'Soulblade' role. Might have been a touch early, however, we haven't been fighting undead so I guess it's just a +1/+1 over what I had already(ImPactWeap). Using mage armor from the SoD and a Shield(I Rp that whenever she equips a shield, which takes an action, she's summoning her Soul armor), I have a respectable 18ac.

I am currently happy with how things are going, and I think I've settled on either 12 warlock/8 sorcerer, or 14 warlock/6 sorcerer. With a lean towards the first split. My hope here, is that some more experienced players can give me tips or suggestions on the best way to get there, and which split would work best for me. I plan to hit 5 in Warlock next, then go straight to 6 in sorcerer. I lean into melee over ranged, with a tilt towards mobility when possible as Illyana naturally is teleportation mutant.

Illyana Rasputin: 1 Shadow Sorcerer/ 3 Hexblade Warlock
Race: Mark of Passage, Human
Stats: 8 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 16 cha
Pact: Blade

Spells:
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Eldritch Blast, Green-Flame Blade, Shocking Grasp, Sword Burst
1st: Acid Stream, Armor of Agathys, Hex, Mage Armor (SoD), Sleep
2nd: Misty Step (Racial), Hold Person

Invocations: Currently Agonizing Blast, Improved Pact Weapon. Probably need to change IPW after getting the new weapon. Thinking by Warlock 5 I'll have: AB, Thristing and Eldritch Smite.

Feats I'm considering: Warcaster, Medium Armor Master, Polearm Master? Would require abandoning the sword. Also kinda breaks character concept some :(. Open to ideas on others.

Would really love feedback, and especially suggestions for spells, Invocations and a conversations of feats vs Stats, and which windows to do which.

Cheers!

[Misterwhisper]

Hello!
This is my first time here, so apologies if this is the wrong section. I hope I got it right though!

I've been trying to build and play the Marvel character, Magik. I started with a level in Shadow Sorcerer as a Mark of Passage Human. We found a staff of defense, and I was using that for a while. However we recently defeated a green dragon (Lost Mines), and a reward my GM threw my way was a sun blade. This was on my list of wished items, as I felt it best filled the 'Soulblade' role. Might have been a touch early, however, we haven't been fighting undead so I guess it's just a +1/+1 over what I had already(ImPactWeap). Using mage armor from the SoD and a Shield(I Rp that whenever she equips a shield, which takes an action, she's summoning her Soul armor), I have a respectable 18ac.

I am currently happy with how things are going, and I think I've settled on either 12 warlock/8 sorcerer, or 14 warlock/6 sorcerer. With a lean towards the first split. My hope here, is that some more experienced players can give me tips or suggestions on the best way to get there, and which split would work best for me. I plan to hit 5 in Warlock next, then go straight to 6 in sorcerer. I lean into melee over ranged, with a tilt towards mobility when possible as Illyana naturally is teleportation mutant.

Illyana Rasputin: 1 Shadow Sorcerer/ 3 Hexblade Warlock
Race: Mark of Passage, Human
Stats: 8 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 10 int, 10 wis, 16 cha
Pact: Blade

Spells:
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Create Bonfire, Eldritch Blast, Green-Flame Blade, Shocking Grasp, Sword Burst
1st: Acid Stream, Armor of Agathys, Hex, Mage Armor (SoD), Sleep
2nd: Misty Step (Racial), Hold Person

Invocations: Currently Agonizing Blast, Improved Pact Weapon. Probably need to change IPW after getting the new weapon. Thinking by Warlock 5 I'll have: AB, Thristing and Eldritch Smite.


Would really love feedback, and especially suggestions for spells, Invocations and a conversations of feats vs Stats, and which windows to do which.

Cheers!

Looks solid, you could go either more of either class and be fine.

Not sure how your gm feels about UA but there was an invocation a few months back that let you touch any armor and instantly don it and even gave proficiency in it.

I could see that being that you have it in a bag of holding or something and use an action to summon your armor into you and your pact weapon.

I loved improved pact weapon for the versatility.

Need a greatsword, longbow, dagger, whatever?
Poof there you go, all using charisma.

As a matter of fact with a hexblade, pact of the blade I don’t even bother with agonizing blast.

I go:
Improved pact weapon
Eldritch smite
Thirsting blade, unless you just want to use more GFB/BB.
Could take a nice utility one instead.

[Aquifn]

Looks solid, you could go either more of either class and be fine.

Not sure how your gm feels about UA but there was an invocation a few months back that let you touch any armor and instantly don it and even gave proficiency in it.

I could see that being that you have it in a bag of holding or something and use an action to summon your armor into you and your pact weapon.

I loved improved pact weapon for the versatility.

Need a greatsword, longbow, dagger, whatever?
Poof there you go, all using charisma.

As a matter of fact with a hexblade, pact of the blade I don’t even bother with agonizing blast.

I go:
Improved pact weapon
Eldritch smite
Thirsting blade, unless you just want to use more GFB/BB.
Could take a nice utility one instead.

Sounds like a neat invocation. I feel like AB is just so strong for one dip, and it gives me a solid ranged option. I'll consider it. As for attacking, I'm going to be mostly doing thirsting double attack, and then quickened cantrip. Eitehr GFB, BB or EB. Whatever fits. I believe that works as long as I have sorc points, and when I start using darkness I should be able to even EB in melee.

[Aquifn]

What was that armor invocation called?

[Misterwhisper]

What was that armor invocation called?

Eldritch armor.

It is from this UA:

https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/d...ssFeatures.pdf

PS

Because foci can be different items and you are not limited to one, there is a way to get much better bonuses for Eldritch Blast.

You can use a wand of the war mage and a rod of the pact keeper at the same time.

Wand gives you +1 and and ignoring partial cover
Rod give you another +1 that does stack because they are different items and an extra spell slot once per long rest.

I was neither a hexblade nor a blade pact, but eventually if you can get +2s of those or even 3s it is a massive help.

[Aquifn]

Huh, that's a fairly awesome invocation to use whatever armor you want.


I don't want to move to EB blasting. I just want it as a good ranged option. I'm okay with one invocation set aside for that. I more need to focus on what feats/stats to gain for my ASI's and figure out which class split to use.

[Keravath]

There are lots of different ways to play a melee hexblade and none of them are wrong and most are fun :)

However, the challenge is coming up with options that will out damage agonizing blast. I always find it difficult to play my melee hexblade if I can't do more damage than just using agonizing blast.

My character is currently level 11 - 10 hexblade/1 shadow sorcerer. The main reason for the split is again the focus on melee being better than agonizing blast. Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade, and Lifedrinker. However, to actually outdamage agonizing blast you will usually also need Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master using a glaive or similar weapon - especially after level 11 and 17 where agonizing blast gets upgraded. Of course if you can find a +3 weapon that may help a bit in damage but the agonizing blast specialist can get a +3 rod of the pact master for the same to hit benefit and an increase in spell DC.

The final ingredient to the effectiveness of a melee hexblade is the use of darkness+devils sight or shadow of moil to generate reliable advantage on attacks and disadvantage when folks attack you. However, I don't know how that would fit into your concept of the Marvel character. She appears to be a sorcerer and can master spells so it might fit fine.

One last comment though, eldritch smite is a trap option for a warlock in my opinion. It does a bit of damage and knocks an opponent prone. However, before 10th level a warlock only has 2 spell slots per short rest. Warlocks have a number of good spells to use and with typical pacing they will have about 1 spell/encounter. In addition, eldritch smite can only be used with warlock slots so it will be fairly limited. On the other hand, if you take multiple levels of sorcerer you will have more slots for the spells and wider spell selection ... but you won't be as good at melee. At level 11 - 5 hexblade/6 sorcerer you will have two weapon attacks vs 3 bolts from agonizing blast.

Always trade offs but whatever you choose should be fun :)

[Man_Over_Game]

I'll be honest and say I'm kinda disappointed. I'm not a huge fan of munchkinning a character, but there is a massive power boost you can get just going 3 levels into Shadow Sorcerer and focusing on Eldritch Blast as a Warlock, as you can efficiently give yourself the Darkness + Super Darkvision combo as a level 3 Sorcerer, and you can combine Quicken Spell with Hex and Eldritch Blast to launch a massive barrage of missiles on turn 3:

Assuming a +3 mod and Agonizing Blast:
Turn 1: Hexblade's Curse + Eldritch Blast = (3+3+1d10)*2
Turn 2: Hex + Eldritch Blast = (3+3+1d6+1d10)*2
Turn 3: Eldritch Blast + Quicken Eldritch Blast = (3+3+1d6+1d10)*4 = 60 single target ranged damage. A level 5 Fighter hits about 50 with melee attacks at that same level (5), after feats and fighting styles.


Even as a melee character, I'd still recommend a second level into Sorcerer, as it does mean you'd be able to charge your lower level Sorcerer spell slots more consistently. You don't need to use the whole Warlock-Sorcerer conversion trick to the point of abuse, most DMs I know only have a problem with it when it becomes a problem.

[Aquifn]

What are you disappointed in?


And yes, I understand that doing things differently will result in higher damage output. That isn't my goal, as tempting as it is. I'm just trying to create and have fun playing a character I like the concept of. Which of course means focusing on melee for damage, and spells for mobility or battlefield control. (Yes, I know dead is the best control, but again that isn't my goal with this character).

[Man_Over_Game]

What are you disappointed in?


And yes, I understand that doing things differently will result in higher damage output. That isn't my goal, as tempting as it is. I'm just trying to create and have fun playing a character I like the concept of. Which of course means focusing on melee for damage, and spells for mobility or battlefield control. (Yes, I know dead is the best control, but again that isn't my goal with this character).

Mostly the sheer level of synergy. I actually prefer melee combatants over range in most scenarios, I just think that the Warlock in particular is really bad on the topic.

• Few defensive spells/powers,
• Comes with a feat/invocation tax if you plan on using your shield proficiency,
• Makes it less MAD by tying weapon damage into your Charisma but then changes its mind by giving you Medium armor,
• Your best defensive spell (Shield) doesn't upcast on a class that needs to upcast most of your spells eventually,
• On a subclass that gets more out of shooting lasers than it does hitting things,
• On a class that ALSO gets more out of shooting lasers than hitting things.

Considering the Bladesinger is probably easier to play, a bit more consistent, possibly even tankier (after you consider AC and Concentration Buffs), and most players still suggest playing a Bladesinger as a mid-range controller, I don't think the front line is where a Warlock belongs. Not without some changes to the class/subclass.

Besides soaking up roughly the same amount of damage as your party's Rogue (and you're a worse target, considering Concentration), what exactly does a Warlock do better built as a melee character instead of as a ranged one?

That's all. Ended up turning this into a sounding board for my Warlock frustrations, sorry about that.

[Aquifn]

Warlock doesn't need to be the best at everything. It's pretty damn solid as the base for a power blaster. It doesn't need to perform the jobs of a paladin or bladesinger or any of that. It still performs a melee gish just fine.

And I'm fine knowing that if I wanna play dndstatsheet I should be doing another class. That's not my goal here, I'm asking for help making my character concept come to life. That's all.

[Keravath]

Mostly the sheer level of synergy. I actually prefer melee combatants over range in most scenarios, I just think that the Warlock in particular is really bad on the topic.

• Few defensive spells/powers,
• Comes with a feat/invocation tax if you plan on using your shield proficiency,
• Makes it less MAD by tying weapon damage into your Charisma but then changes its mind by giving you Medium armor,
• Your best defensive spell (Shield) doesn't upcast on a class that needs to upcast most of your spells eventually,
• On a subclass that gets more out of shooting lasers than it does hitting things,
• On a class that ALSO gets more out of shooting lasers than hitting things.

Considering the Bladesinger is probably easier to play, a bit more consistent, possibly even tankier (after you consider AC and Concentration Buffs), and most players still suggest playing a Bladesinger as a mid-range controller, I don't think the front line is where a Warlock belongs. Not without some changes to the class/subclass.

Besides soaking up roughly the same amount of damage as your party's Rogue (and you're a worse target, considering Concentration), what exactly does a Warlock do better built as a melee character instead of as a ranged one?

That's all. Ended up turning this into a sounding board for my Warlock frustrations, sorry about that.

Note: the following comments aren't directed to the OP ... I think building to create a character concept is perfectly ok.

I tend to disagree a bit with MOG over the melee ability of a warlock. The big problem is it doesn't come easily.

A warlock can be a very effective melee combatant doing more damage than through eldritch blast and still have that as a ranged backup. The problem is really that to do this the character has to be dedicated to it and requires feats to be competitive.

Resilient con + PAM + GWM to start

Darkness+devils sight -> Shadow of Moil ... to provide advantage on attacks and disadvantage to be attacked.

An early level of sorcerer to provide at least some spell slots for shield. The warlock slots get used for darkness or shadow of moil. A ring of spell storing goes a long way in this case.

I've played this character to level 11 so far (10 hexblade/1 shadow sorcerer) and I haven't been disappointed. They can be pretty one dimensional though with a good charisma and some social skills they can be effective at that aspect of the game also.

Invocations are thirsting blade/improved pact weapon/devils sight/agonizing blast ... charisma is still only 16 though due to the feats. In retrospect, I might have left GWM for later and boosted charisma first but it doesn't make much difference .. I could also have left PAM for tier 3 but I find the -5 to hit for GWM has a greater impact in tier 1/2 making the trade off less worthwhile much of the time (even with advantage).

From a DPR perspective, the character is pretty competitive as long as they are attacking with advantage (which increases the hit probability). Unlike reckless attack, shadow of moil improves both attack and defence making it possible to be in melee range. In addition, using a 10' reach weapon often means they can move in and out. In addition, not being seen means opponents don't get op attacks.

At 12th level of warlock, the character gets lifedrinker and boosts charisma to 18.

Attacks with a glaive are then 2x(d10+19) damage and the butt end is d4+19 ... all attacks made with advantage as long as the target can't see you (and most can't unless they have blindsight).

Eventually, the character will be able to quicken shadow of moil in the first round and still take the attack action.

In practice, I found it challenging to use GWM effectively through tier 2. However, with stat and proficiency increases through tier 3, without the increase in opponent AC, hitting with GWM becomes easier through tier 3 and 4.

Agonizing blast + quickened agonizing blast at tier 3 is an average of 63 (with 20 charisma) ... the melee option above is 70.5 if all attacks hit. Considering the higher miss rate due to GWM these are probably comparable, the melee option doesn't drain sorcery points and only costs the one spell slot for shadow of moil. In tier 4 the eldritch blast + quickened eldritch blast moves ahead in damage output but the melee hexblade/shadow sorcerer still has this as an option by the time they hit tier 4 also.

Anyway, with enough investment, I think a hexblade warlock can do better with melee attacks than with eldritch blast through tier 3 and be comparable to or better than other melee classes when the semi-reliable advantage to hit and disadvantage to be hit is factored in.

A GWM/PAM paladin with IDS will be comparable though lifedrinker with a +cha flat will edge out IDS with +d8 with 20 charisma. However, as always :), paladins can smite for even more burst damage though they don't necessarily have as many mechanisms to obtain advantage on attacks.

[Man_Over_Game]

Note: the following comments aren't directed to the OP ... I think building to create a character concept is perfectly ok.

I tend to disagree a bit with MOG over the melee ability of a warlock. The big problem is it doesn't come easily.

I really do appreciate the breakdown, it's some damn good work, I just think spending 3 additional feats to effectively break even doesn't make it very...compelling.

Thinking about what an EB Warlock could do with 3 free feats to spend, on top of the ~3-4 extra Invocations and Pact boon (that may synergize with those feats/each other), just sounds a bit crazy to reconsider anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Warlock get the melee options it deserves, I just don't think it has them without some help from the DM.

That's what I'm trying to suggest: Aquifn, I think you should talk with your DM. You deserve your vision.

[Aquifn]

I'm a touch new. Can one of you explain why I'd want Resilient Con if I start Sorc. Why that over Warcaster?

Edit: Other than the plus one Con, which won't help me. Sorc already gave me prof in con saves right? This feat wouldn't be useful to me then, would it?

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm a touch new. Can one of you explain why I'd want Resilient Con if I start Sorc. Why that over Warcaster?

Not really any reason, I think Keravath was just giving his breakdown on how he did it. Being a Warlock does give you +2 more max HP than starting Sorcerer, but most people would probably prefer the Con proficiency if they were leveling into Sorcerer anyway.

[Aquifn]

Gotcha. So is the general thought that unless I take PAM and GWM I generally am just going to suck in combat compared to my party members? I thought the idea of thirsting + cantrip sounded decent.

[Man_Over_Game]

Gotcha. So is the general thought that unless I take PAM and GWM I generally am just going to suck in combat compared to my party members? I thought the idea of thirsting + cantrip sounded decent.

It is decent, but limited. You only get both if you have Sorcery Points from Sorcerer to burn for Quicken Spell, which means you need at least 2 Sorcerer levels. That means you're looking at your 2nd attack per round to be at level 6-7 when everyone else got it at level 5.

On top of that, Quicken will cost you 1 Sorcery Point per use, of which you'd have 2. Sure, you can convert your Warlock spell slots into Sorcery Points, but you'd need your DM to sign off on that (as some may see that as a slippery slope to the dreaded "coffeelock" concept, as Sorcery Points don't have a cap). So, by default, you get two uses of Booming Blade per day. Not the worst, but it's not great.

Additionally (unfortunately), you're also likely to be one of the squishier melee targets in the team, and an enemy is unlikely to be someone that trigger's Booming Blade's secondary effect. You can pull that off with a Reach weapon, but that requires the Spell Sniper feat. You could try a hit-and-run build style, using something like the Disengage Action to run away after you use Booming Blade, but that's probably a lot easier as a Rogue/Wizard hybrid.

What a Warlock has is versatility. It's a mediocre melee combatant, but it's got fully powered control spells. You could say that the Valor Bard and the Hexblade have the same exact design philosophy (caster first, have options when you need something else), except one heals and uses skills while the other one kills things.

Sometimes, that's enough. Comparing anyone's melee damage vs. a Samurai's melee damage will always be a losing battle. Comparing your success vs. someone else's has a similar effect in real life. That doesn't mean that the Samurai can match you in any other area, though, as long as you aren't limiting yourself to his area of expertise. You can't look at the Hexblade and expect a strictly melee combatant, because that's ignoring 70% of the class.

The big reason Paladins get away with it is because they're only 1/2 casters (so they get other things to compensate for the weak casting), and can sell their spell slots for damage (in fairness, Warlocks can too at later levels).

[Keravath]

You don't need resilient con if you start as a sorcerer. I started as a warlock because both wis and con save proficiency is useful, especially at the higher levels. It also fit the character backstory better and I was hoping to stay pure warlock to see how it played out. However, I found a ring of spell storing (around level 8) and to use it efficiently I needed first level spell slots since warlock spell slots are all higher level. A ninth level warlock for example could only put one shield spell into a ring of spell storing since they have to use a 5th level slot to cast it.

However, the bigger problem with quicken is that it takes 2 sorcery points and not 1. You also don't get meta magics until level 3 sorcerer. So the idea of quicken+attack action with 2 attacks won't start until level 8 at least. It also costs 2 sorcery points to do it once and you will have to start converting spell slots to sorcery points just to get a bonus action attack. So to get the sorcery points you need you will have to start converting spell slots which reduces the spells you can cast. You will probably also want the two 3rd level slots from level 5 warlock to cast spells rather than convert to sorcery points to generate a ONE bonus action cantrip for each. (a 3rd level sorcerer only has 3 sorcery points and you can't overfill your pool).

PAM on the other hand, gives you a reliable bonus action attack while leaving open the option to spend sorcery points to quicken something else (like booming blade for example ... and make a third regular weapon attack once in a while).

PAM limits your weapon selection to spear/quarterstaff/glaive/etc.

Finally, the comparison here isn't so much to the damage other characters can do but to the damage a warlock can do just with agonizing blast. Melee attacks with a warlock feel frustrating if you know you could do more damage just be standing back and using a cantrip. The two are close to the same through tier 3 .. however, a hexblade can use a shield while casting AB while to get the same melee damage, the character has to use a polearm or two handed weapon without a shield.

Tier 1:
AB: d10+cha
Melee: d10+cha (for hexblade - blade pact at level 3)

Tier 2:
AB: 2 (d10+cha)
Melee: 2 (d10+cha) +2 (assuming improved pact weapon or a +1 weapon)

Tier 3:
AB: 3 (d10+cha)
Melee: 2 (d10 + 2xcha) + 2 (after level 12 assuming the lifedrinker invocation) maybe +2 more if a +2 weapon

With 20 cha
AB = 31.5
Melee = 33 or 35 with a +2 weapon (after level 12)

Tier 4:
AB: 4 (d10+cha)
Melee: 2 (d10 + 2 x cha +3) (assuming a +3 weapon)

AB = 42
Melee = 37

-------------

So, basically, a warlock can do pretty much the same damage with eldritch blast and one invocation (and a shield) as a melee warlock using a glaive and 2 or 3 invocations (without a shield) ... and the melee warlock can really use the shield.

PAM will boost the damage of melee to be a bit better than simple eldritch blast but limits weapon choices and will also decrease main attack damage if you decide to use staff or spear + shield.

In terms of keeping up with damage from other melee classes, a paladin picks up improved divine smite at level 11 which is pretty much comparable to lifedrinker. However, paladins do have smites (eldritch smite for a warlock is a bit of a trap since it burns a very scarce resource for the warlock). Fighter gets a third attack at 11.

However, in all these cases, an extra source of damage is needed to keep up with eldritch blast since it does the equivalent of 3 regular attacks at level 11 including the attack stat which is comparable to a base fighter. It was pretty clearly a design concept that all these classes can do roughly the same amount of damage at comparable levels and you have to work relatively hard to go beyond it.

e.g. dueling fighting style makes the average damage of a spear comparable to a glaive ... so a paladin or fighter using a spear or staff + dueling is comparable to the d10+stat attack from AB. GWF slightly bumps the average damage from heavy weapons. However, feats and special abilities are needed to generate the extra attacks needed to push melee ahead of AB.

P.S. Sorry for the long winded analysis :) .. most of which doesn't make much difference unless you play with folks who optimize.

[Aquifn]

So really, I should be focusing on finding interesting/fun things that thematically fit my goals. Not trying to be damage king.

[Man_Over_Game]

So really, I should be focusing on finding interesting/fun things that thematically fit my goals. Not trying to be damage king.

Honestly, that's what I've found the Warlock to be the king of. Level 10 Illusion Wizard can barely keep up with a level 5 Warlock of any patron/boon when it comes to abuse of Illusion magic. And that's just one area of talent. You're still talking about Short Rest Fly/Invisibility, Speak With Animals At-will, an invisible telepathic scout, etc.

Imagine what a Rogue does to skills, and then replace those mundane skills with magic. That's a Warlock. Or, at least what they do better than anyone else at.

Damage and Combat are things anyone in 5e can do. Heck, Bards are the worst combatants in the game, and they still are packed with Hypnotic Pattern and Heat Metal. Point is, when it comes to combat, you don't have to be "good" to be "good enough". Very little optimization is going to outpace the value of a single casting of Fireball would do, so don't fret too much about it.

It's the same reason I loathe most Fighter-types, as the loss in options for the sake of specializations don't really payoff in a way that exceeds much past what anyone else could do casually (like spending a single level 3 slot for Fireball).

Doubly so for the melee Hexblade (who has those options and has to trade them in to just become more generic).