Mulan Coming to Disney+

[Psyren]

and could be replaced with a very weak human guy with flint and tinder. you could give everything that he does on his own to one of the three men she befriends then just have her light the dang stuff normally and the film would work. he is not a superpower, he is a superfluous.

So flint and steel work submerged in snow? You can scare soldiers off a guard tower across a courtyard with them too? Okay.

And for that matter, what "magic" did she really accomplish in the live-action? Jumping high, dodging arrows? Any D&D monk can do that without magic. She ran up a wall once or twice, you could replace that with a grappling hook, therefore by your logic it's superfluous and there's nothing to complain about.

The witch does more explicitly supernatural stuff (shapeshifting, possession) but Mulan herself doesn't come close to any of that.

[uncool]

Psyren - I think you are missing the point we are making with this hypothetical replacement: that the method of lighting is unimportant to Mulan's character arc. Mushu himself could almost be written out, and her arc would remain mostly unchanged. Because her arc isn't about her being special, but about her doing exceptional things.

From the sound of it (as I have not watched the movie), the special-ness of chi-fighting is central to Mulan's success, in a way that cannot be written out of her character arc. If you hypothetically replaced her running up a wall with a grappling hook, you would still have to explain why other soldiers didn't use grappling hooks. She is succeeding because she is special.

[Lord Raziere]

So flint and steel work submerged in snow? You can scare soldiers off a guard tower across a courtyard with them too? Okay.

And for that matter, what "magic" did she really accomplish in the live-action? Jumping high, dodging arrows? Any D&D monk can do that without magic. She ran up a wall once or twice, you could replace that with a grappling hook, therefore by your logic it's superfluous and there's nothing to complain about.

The witch does more explicitly supernatural stuff (shapeshifting, possession) but Mulan herself doesn't come close to any of that.

Again, its nothing that a friend can't have done. he is an upjumped garden snake, your massively overselling him.

Furthermore your comparing fiction to another fiction. what a DnD monk can do is neither here nor there and they are not representative of what we're talking about. the point is that animated Mulan's story didn't actually need the supernatural elements to make sense, but this one does and that ruins the story because its not about the supernatural elements: its about a woman joining an army to save her homeland from invaders and doing it just as well as anyone else.

to add in the qi? that sends a message. the equivalent to that is saying that Mulan has to have cybernetics to be useful to the army to defend your homeland. that her usefulness is not because of herself, but because of some other factor that makes it irrelevant because she is no longer a human to be treated like everyone else. thats a horrible message. the entire point of such stories to present a situation where the chances aren't skewed by factors that muddy the message. because once those factors skew that message, you done screwed up. you can't have someone be like everyone else and be a superhero at the same time.

and while the animated film does not do it perfectly either it does it better. because less was added to skew away from that message. you could argue they're both broken aesops but if I had to choose between them, I'd say the animated one is less broken than the live action one, because at least Mulan herself is not altered to be supernaturally better at anything. she is still a human, she had help from other people but every human gets help in our lives from various sources because we do not live alone. which is miles better than fake strength from arbitrary superpowers that implies she wouldn't be worth telling a story about if she didn't have them.

[uncool]

And the whole point of chi by the way is that everyone DOES have it.

I guess a major point is this line: does the movie show this, or just say it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I guess a major point is this line: does the movie show this, or just say it?

From what I gather, "Everyone has it" in the same sense that "everyone has midichlorians", but Mulan just happens to have more of it. A number of Chinese reviewers are moderately annoyed at this (see this particularly vivid example), so I take it that this is not the proper way to handle qi. But even ignoring the RL stuff, she's definitely exceptional and Chosen One-y.

Grey Wolf

[Lethologica]

With the sole exception of the final scene's demonstration of Nameless' Death at Ten Paces technique, every fight is either a 'battle of the mind' or a story/recollection by an unreliable narrator (either by Nameless or the King himself), so fantastic flying martial arts is not unrealistic in these cases.

That said, the fights being sheer spectacle is both part of the visual appeal but primarily mainly eye-candy to help drive the underlying story, rather than telling the story itself. The important bits are the bits in-between where each story gets Nameless closer and closer to the King.

I'm not sure what it means to be "eye candy that helps drive the underlying story," as those descriptions seem mutually exclusive, which makes me think I may be misunderstanding you.

However, to the extent that you are describing the fights as unimportant spectacle because the story happens elsewhere, I strongly disagree. The surface plot may be Nameless and the King seeking each other's truths, but the fight scenes are a crucial part of telling the story. And yes, that includes the fantastical nature of the fighting conveying a surreal, dreamlike quality and calling into question the reliability of the narrators and the literality of the narrative. Even Nameless' technique is principally in large part a metaphor. The idea that the spectacle is unrealism that needs to be excused by unreliable narrators is entirely underselling the intentionality of the work.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Hey, we finally got something entertaining out of this movie!

A number of the negative reviews have been entertaining. Still waiting on the Honest Trailer for it!

[Brother Oni]

and while the animated film does not do it perfectly either it does it better. because less was added to skew away from that message. you could argue they're both broken aesops but if I had to choose between them, I'd say the animated one is less broken than the live action one, because at least Mulan herself is not altered to be supernaturally better at anything. she is still a human, she had help from other people but every human gets help in our lives from various sources because we do not live alone. which is miles better than fake strength from arbitrary superpowers that implies she wouldn't be worth telling a story about if she didn't have them.

Speaking of sending the wrong message, I've mentioned it before when Mulan's come up, but under the Northern Wei Dynasty, national service could be discharged by serving the state, not just by military service. Since the administration of the national service was done at the local level, the administrative unit in charge of the block of households that included the Hua family, would have been another local family and would know that Father Hua had a dodgy leg and no sons, so therefore they would have shuffled him off to something less demanding but equally necessary to the state (clerical scribe, jailor, etc).

Mulan stealing the armour and joining up was completely unnecessary - the girl just wanted to kill people defend her homeland during an active invasion, which is a very different message to the 'filial duty' theme of the original ballad and the animation.

I'm not sure what it means to be "eye candy that helps drive the underlying story," as those descriptions seem mutually exclusive, which makes me think I may be misunderstanding you.

However, to the extent that you are describing the fights as unimportant spectacle because the story happens elsewhere, I strongly disagree. The surface plot may be Nameless and the King seeking each other's truths, but the fight scenes are a crucial part of telling the story. And yes, that includes the fantastical nature of the fighting conveying a surreal, dreamlike quality and calling into question the reliability of the narrators and the literality of the narrative. Even Nameless' technique is principally in large part a metaphor. The idea that the spectacle is unrealism that needs to be excused by unreliable narrators is entirely underselling the intentionality of the work.

What I meant, is that the fights could easily be replaced by a very much more grounded (both figuratively and literally) display of martial arts and it wouldn't have affected how the in-between sections (black scenes) would have gone. I do see your point however and I would agree that the gravity defying acrobatics displays are necessary to implicitly establish the reliability of the narrators; the reason for them ('battles of the mind' in my translation) are mentioned in the film though so I think I didn't explain well and confused myself on the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to address was Grey_Wolf_c's comment of loss of suspension of disbelief - if you're used to 'standard' martial arts movies and haven't experienced wuxia movies before, then your expectations are mis-calibrated and the sheer spectacle will destroy your suspension of disbelief, leaving you uninvested in the film.

I know I experienced it myself when watching Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon for the first time (the first rooftops chase) and this is despite me having grown up on HK action films with varying levels of wirework (Zu Warriors from the Magic Mountain, A Chinese Ghost Story, Once Upon A Time In China, etc).

[Lethologica]

Speaking of sending the wrong message, I've mentioned it before when Mulan's come up, but under the Northern Wei Dynasty, national service could be discharged by serving the state, not just by military service. Since the administration of the national service was done at the local level, the administrative unit in charge of the block of households that included the Hua family, would have been another local family and would know that Father Hua had a dodgy leg and no sons, so therefore they would have shuffled him off to something less demanding but equally necessary to the state (clerical scribe, jailor, etc).

Mulan stealing the armour and joining up was completely unnecessary - the girl just wanted to kill people defend her homeland during an active invasion, which is a very different message to the 'filial duty' theme of the original ballad and the animation.

That's a fun little wrinkle on the whole affair.

What I meant, is that the fights could easily be replaced by a very much more grounded (both figuratively and literally) display of martial arts and it wouldn't have affected how the in-between sections (black scenes) would have gone. I do see your point however and I would agree that the gravity defying acrobatics displays are necessary to implicitly establish the reliability of the narrators; the reason for them ('battles of the mind' in my translation) are mentioned in the film though so I think I didn't explain well and confused myself on the point I was trying to make.

The point I was trying to address was Grey_Wolf_c's comment of loss of suspension of disbelief - if you're used to 'standard' martial arts movies and haven't experienced wuxia movies before, then your expectations are mis-calibrated and the sheer spectacle will destroy your suspension of disbelief, leaving you uninvested in the film.

I know I experienced it myself when watching Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon for the first time (the first rooftops chase) and this is despite me having grown up on HK action films with varying levels of wirework (Zu Warriors from the Magic Mountain, A Chinese Ghost Story, Once Upon A Time In China, etc).

Heh. I'm quite the reverse - I grew up with Crouching Tiger, Hero, and House of Flying Daggers, so all the qinggong is completely normal to me, while I tend to struggle with older HK action films due to production values and cheesy (probably poorly-translated) dialogue.

[Psyren]

Psyren - I think you are missing the point we are making with this hypothetical replacement: that the method of lighting is unimportant to Mulan's character arc. Mushu himself could almost be written out, and her arc would remain mostly unchanged. Because her arc isn't about her being special, but about her doing exceptional things.

From the sound of it (as I have not watched the movie), the special-ness of chi-fighting is central to Mulan's success, in a way that cannot be written out of her character arc. If you hypothetically replaced her running up a wall with a grappling hook, you would still have to explain why other soldiers didn't use grappling hooks. She is succeeding because she is special.

Exactly - every martial arts protagonist is special/talented. So why is this suddenly a problem when she does it?

Having chi itself is not special, but in her setting, using/channeling it for hand-to-hand combat is viewed (or more accurately, was viewed) as an inherently masculine quality.

Her uses of heavy-air-quotes "magic" in the movie amount to being highly accurate and agile, maybe with a bit of wire-fu here and there for big jumps and wallruns. And getting followed around by a phoenix that may or may not even really be there. If that somehow undermines her character/journey for some people, I would recommend that those people simply view her as being highly accurate and agile without any of the spiritual trappings.

[t209]

Speaking of sending the wrong message, I've mentioned it before when Mulan's come up, but under the Northern Wei Dynasty, national service could be discharged by serving the state, not just by military service. Since the administration of the national service was done at the local level, the administrative unit in charge of the block of households that included the Hua family, would have been another local family and would know that Father Hua had a dodgy leg and no sons, so therefore they would have shuffled him off to something less demanding but equally necessary to the state (clerical scribe, jailor, etc).)

I did think like, “why didn’t he or the government asked for Mulan dad to be a back line officer, like drill instructor or staff officer”.
Well, he did try to walk to accept the letter without using a cane when the scribe showed up as a means to show that he is physically active.
I think he really don’t want to be a staff officer.
Also Mulan just botched her marriage prospect, so making up for her failure.

[Traab]

Exactly - every martial arts protagonist is special/talented. So why is this suddenly a problem when she does it?

Having chi itself is not special, but in her setting, using/channeling it for hand-to-hand combat is viewed (or more accurately, was viewed) as an inherently masculine quality.

Her uses of heavy-air-quotes "magic" in the movie amount to being highly accurate and agile, maybe with a bit of wire-fu here and there for big jumps and wallruns. And getting followed around by a phoenix that may or may not even really be there. If that somehow undermines her character/journey for some people, I would recommend that those people simply view her as being highly accurate and agile without any of the spiritual trappings.

We have said why, repeatedly, you just dont want to acknowledge it. Animated Mulan was an every girl kind of character, because she didnt have any special skills or qualifications beyond what any other soldier could master. That made her a role model for little girls everywhere who wanted to be brave like that, or do heroic things. This remake mulan has super powers that the average person will never have and can never have. She is no longer a reachable goal. This doesnt make the movie bad, but it does fundamentally change the theme and its underlying message. What animated mulan did, any member of the army could have done in the same situation. She didnt have any special trait that marked her as unique and special. This mulan is the chosen one, the only one who could save the day because she is so gosh darn amazing and special.

[Psyren]

We have said why, repeatedly, you just dont want to acknowledge it. Animated Mulan was an every girl kind of character, because she didnt have any special skills or qualifications beyond what any other soldier could master. That made her a role model for little girls everywhere who wanted to be brave like that, or do heroic things. This remake mulan has super powers that the average person will never have and can never have. She is no longer a reachable goal. This doesnt make the movie bad, but it does fundamentally change the theme and its underlying message. What animated mulan did, any member of the army could have done in the same situation. She didnt have any special trait that marked her as unique and special. This mulan is the chosen one, the only one who could save the day because she is so gosh darn amazing and special.

Chi IS something every soldier has. The general (Donnie Yen's character) explicitly says this during the training montage, as does her father.

And once again - what does she do with it that is breaking your suspension of disbelief so hard? Fire some arrows accurately? Balance on a log?

[Lord Raziere]

Chi IS something every soldier has. The general (Donnie Yen's character) explicitly says this during the training montage, as does her father.

And once again - what does she do with it that is breaking your suspension of disbelief so hard? Fire some arrows accurately? Balance on a log?

Telling is not showing. Basic rule of storytelling.

Its not about breaking suspension of disbelief, its about whether its message is accurate or not. If Mulan is the only one to demonstrate these stunts in the army, then those sayings are nothing but excuses slapped on as an afterthought to try and hide that they didn't actually go to the effort of showing it being normal and expected, thus its message wouldn't be accurate.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Looks like we have numbers from last weekend: Disney's 'Mulan' Scores $33.5 Million In Streaming Labor Day Release: Industry Estimate

[Psyren]

Telling is not showing. Basic rule of storytelling.

Its not about breaking suspension of disbelief, its about whether its message is accurate or not. If Mulan is the only one to demonstrate these stunts in the army, then those sayings are nothing but excuses slapped on as an afterthought to try and hide that they didn't actually go to the effort of showing it being normal and expected, thus its message wouldn't be accurate.

Except they do show the other soldiers doing chi stunts too actually, against Bori's not-ninjas in the palace courtyard fight.

Mulan is more skilled than they are - but that's how it was in the original too. Yet again, 20 years is a bit late for these specious complaints.

Looks like we have numbers from last weekend: Disney's 'Mulan' Scores $33.5 Million In Streaming Labor Day Release: Industry Estimate

Interesting, those estimates appear to be based on smart TVs. I wonder if it also counts non-smart TVs with streaming devices attached like Fire Stick or Chromecast? Doesn't seem like it includes those, or watchers on other systems like PCs and consoles.

There's also the big increase in downloads, and the fact that theater chains don't get a cut of the proceeds...

[Lord Raziere]

Except they do show the other soldiers doing chi stunts too actually, against Bori's not-ninjas in the palace courtyard fight.

Mulan is more skilled than they are - but that's how it was in the original too. Yet agian, 20 years is a bit late for these specious complaints.

Well maybe you should've opened with the fact that they're shown, rather than saving it until now, ever think about that?

okay so technically you can say its equal on that measure. cool. your broken aesop is now a space whale aesop.

that doesn't take care of the other problem which is that qi exists at all in this story, thus taking it out of the realm of being considered a serious sweet polly oliver story. it still can't be used as an example empowerment or equality, because its all fantastic, so you can't say whether it accurately reflects or comments on the reality of the situation. its like an experiment: you have to isolate the proper factor that is being tested here and this film adds in a variable that throws off the testing so to speak. there is no control group where Mulan in a world without all this magic does this, thus ruining whats being tested. Thus this film is still useless for what we really want from it.

[Psyren]

Well maybe you should've opened with the fact that they're shown, rather than saving it until now, ever think about that?

What part of "Chi is something every warrior uses in this universe" confused you?

that doesn't take care of the other problem which is that qi exists at all in this story, thus taking it out of the realm of being considered a serious sweet polly oliver story.

Yeah, serious like the original, where a magic fire dragon spirit and a magic probability-warping cricket saved her life multiple times.

[Lord Raziere]

What part of "Chi is something every warrior uses in this universe" confused you?


Yeah, serious like the original, where a magic fire dragon spirit and a magic probability-warping cricket saved her life multiple times.

1. What part of "Show don't tell" confused you?

2.What part of

and while the animated film does not do it perfectly either it does it better. because less was added to skew away from that message. you could argue they're both broken aesops but if I had to choose between them, I'd say the animated one is less broken than the live action one, because at least Mulan herself is not altered to be supernaturally better at anything. she is still a human, she had help from other people but every human gets help in our lives from various sources because we do not live alone. which is miles better than fake strength from arbitrary superpowers that implies she wouldn't be worth telling a story about if she didn't have them.

confused you?

[Psyren]

1. What part of "Show don't tell" confused you?

You mean the part you just said one post ago, before lambasting me for not saying they showed it before you asked me about it?

2.What part of

confused you?

I'm confused because you still haven't told me what "supernatural" behavior she exhibited that has you up in arms.

[Lethologica]

Chi IS something every soldier has. The general (Donnie Yen's character) explicitly says this during the training montage, as does her father.

And once again - what does she do with it that is breaking your suspension of disbelief so hard? Fire some arrows accurately? Balance on a log?

Let's go with some of the clips shown here (bonus: another version of the argument Raziere, Grey Wolf etc. are making) as examples of Mulan doing special things with her chi:

[Lord Raziere]

You mean the part you just said one post ago, before lambasting me for not saying they showed it before you asked me about it?



I'm confused because you still haven't told me what "supernatural" behavior she exhibited that has you up in arms.

Its a basic storytelling rule, people don't trust things that are just said and aren't backed up by something shown.

yeah I think that video above can probably say it better than me, but what I've seen from the pitch parody, kicking an arrow into somehow's heart while midair is most likely impossible I'm sure.

[uncool]

Exactly - every martial arts protagonist is special/talented. So why is this suddenly a problem when she does it?

Because the apparent narrative - the "Sweet Polly Oliver" - is about fitting in, if in a unique way. The basic narrative of "proving yourself in spite of a rule" isn't that interesting when "proving yourself" is that easy.

Another way to say it: most single-protagonist fiction involves both internal and external conflict, and the fiction is strongest when it ties the two together. The two Mulan films share an obvious external conflict: China is being invaded, and the invaders must be thrown back. The animated version has a clear internal conflict: finding her place in society as herself. And the two are resolved together: Mulan defeats the invaders in her found role as the "unorthodox soldier" who finds ways that "expected rules" fail to achieve outcomes. Emphasis, though, is that she is a soldier.

What internal conflict does live-action Mulan face, and is its resolution tied to the defeat of the invasion?

[Psyren]

Its a basic storytelling rule, people don't trust things that are just said and aren't backed up by something shown.

Then congrats, it's shown. Glad we cleared that up.

Let's go with some of the clips shown here (bonus: another version of the argument Raziere, Grey Wolf etc. are making) as examples of Mulan doing special things with her chi:

Care to summarize the examples that were covered by the 18 minute video? If not, I'll watch it later.

What internal conflict does live-action Mulan face, and is its resolution tied to the defeat of the invasion?

Fighting under false pretenses (binder, fake name etc) means she can't fight to her full potential. As in the original, she reveals herself after the avalanche and is expelled, but makes the choice to risk her life by coming back anyway because she realizes that the Emperor is still in danger.

Resolving that conflict directly ties to defeating the invasion.

[Lord Raziere]

Fighting under false pretenses (binder, fake name etc) means she can't fight to her full potential. As in the original, she reveals herself after the avalanche and is expelled, but makes the choice to risk her life by coming back anyway because she realizes that the Emperor is still in danger.

Resolving that conflict directly ties to defeating the invasion.

That doesn't sound like a conflict. that sounds like people being jerks to her for no reason and her deciding to be the better person despite them not wanting her help. coupled with "this isn't even my final form!!"

[Psyren]

That doesn't sound like a conflict. that sounds like people being jerks to her for no reason and her deciding to be the better person despite them not wanting her help. coupled with "this isn't even my final form!!"

It absolutely is jerkish, but it's also the law of the land - just like it is in the original. See "20 years late" comments above.

[Lord Raziere]

It absolutely is jerkish, but it's also the law of the land - just like it is in the original. See "20 years late" comments above.

Yeah but see, that is not whats being complained about here, thats just you.

so let me explain it in simpler terms:
-empowerment stories work best when they are about real capabilities.
-when they are not about real capabilities, the message is muddied.
-when the message is muddied, the person isn't really empowered.
-thus its only the appearance of empowerment without any logic that helps someone be empowered in the real world.
-without logic that helps someone in the real world they are not helped at all.
-real people can't use qi.
-real people can forge documents, use science to light fires, trickery to scare people off and use their brain to win.
-therefore the film that demonstrates methods of empowerment using logic that can actually be applied in the real world like using your brain is more useful as an empowerment story than one that does not.
-therefore a film that ignores such methods in favor of methods that doesn't make sense in the real world is worse.

thats is the logic here. not whatever you think we're talking about.

[uncool]

Yeah but see, that is not whats being complained about here, thats just you.

so let me explain it in simpler terms:
-empowerment stories work best when they are about real capabilities.
-when they are not about real capabilities, the message is muddied.
-when the message is muddied, the person isn't really empowered.
-thus its only the appearance of empowerment without any logic that helps someone be empowered in the real world.
-without logic that helps someone in the real world they are not helped at all.
-real people can't use qi.
-real people can forge documents, use science to light fires, trickery to scare people off and use their brain to win.
-therefore the film that demonstrates methods of empowerment using logic that can actually be applied in the real world like using your brain is more useful as an empowerment story than one that does not.
-therefore a film that ignores such methods in favor of methods that doesn't make sense in the real world is worse.

thats is the logic here. not whatever you think we're talking about.

That's not quite the logic I'm using. It is connected to what I'm saying, but the analysis I'm giving could work with a completely fantastical group - as long as the capabilities of that group were made clear.

[Lethologica]

Care to summarize the examples that were covered by the 18 minute video? If not, I'll watch it later.

I'm not here to make the opposing case, because I think this whole discussion is reasoning backwards from the animated adaptation to decide what kinds of empowerment are valid and whether this adaptation fits that mold, and that's not how I'm interested in examining the film. So people who are interested can go through the various examples in the video (mostly things like kicking spears through faraway people) and make their case one way or the other. (Also, I think Yang Zhang generally makes good videos that deserve to be watched in full anyway, so if that's what you plan to do, so much the better.)

That's not quite the logic I'm using. It is connected to what I'm saying, but the analysis I'm giving could work with a completely fantastical group - as long as the capabilities of that group were made clear.

Yeah, I was gonna say, by that logic pretty much all superhero and fantasy films can't be empowerment fantasies, which is blatantly untrue. Power fantasies and empowerment fantasies aren't actually synonyms, but they rhyme.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not here to make the opposing case, because I think this whole discussion is reasoning backwards from the animated adaptation to decide what kinds of empowerment are valid and whether this adaptation fits that mold, and that's not how I'm interested in examining the film. So people who are interested can go through the various examples in the video (mostly things like kicking spears through faraway people) and make their case one way or the other. (Also, I think Yang Zhang generally makes good videos that deserve to be watched in full anyway, so if that's what you plan to do, so much the better.)


Yeah, I was gonna say, by that logic pretty much all superhero and fantasy films can't be empowerment fantasies, which is blatantly untrue. Power fantasies and empowerment fantasies aren't actually synonyms, but they rhyme.

As long as we're all on the same page instead of talking past each other.